do u need a tall? ive got one. unused...free (cover shipping)
manitou dorado tuning tips
- Thread starter 92SE-R
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Did you find more ways to improve the midstroke support besides the thicker oil??
I'm trying to wrap my head around how the compression damping works in this thing. Can someone help fill in the gaps?
Based on the graphics below and the setup guide this is what I understand:
- High speed compression valve only affects the first part of the travel, and depends on velocity. What is the adjuster doing? Preloading a spring against the shim stack?
- The TPC+ valve only affects the latter half of the travel...except when it's not (more below). Sounds like this is handled by a floating piston so that the valve isn't acted on until the fork is part of the way through the travel. Is the adjuster preloading a spring?
- What is the best way to adjust the fork to compensate for braking forces? Low speed compression is handled by a needle valve. However, the manual says low speed beginning travel compression is adjusted using the TPC+ adjuster: "A “Low-Speed” event is characterized by a short-travel (lessthan 100mm [4in]) low-shaft-velocity as a result of changes to the bike’s trail stance (i.e. berms, G-outs, pedaling, & braking).The low-speed characteristics of the fork will be dictated by the TPC+ adjuster." Then the setup guide says this: "If the fork is still diving with the High Speed adjuster fully closed, the TPC+ adjuster may be increased to compensate". This sounds like you should be using the High Speed adjuster to deal with dive. Which is it????
Based on the graphics below and the setup guide this is what I understand:
- High speed compression valve only affects the first part of the travel, and depends on velocity. What is the adjuster doing? Preloading a spring against the shim stack?
- The TPC+ valve only affects the latter half of the travel...except when it's not (more below). Sounds like this is handled by a floating piston so that the valve isn't acted on until the fork is part of the way through the travel. Is the adjuster preloading a spring?
- What is the best way to adjust the fork to compensate for braking forces? Low speed compression is handled by a needle valve. However, the manual says low speed beginning travel compression is adjusted using the TPC+ adjuster: "A “Low-Speed” event is characterized by a short-travel (lessthan 100mm [4in]) low-shaft-velocity as a result of changes to the bike’s trail stance (i.e. berms, G-outs, pedaling, & braking).The low-speed characteristics of the fork will be dictated by the TPC+ adjuster." Then the setup guide says this: "If the fork is still diving with the High Speed adjuster fully closed, the TPC+ adjuster may be increased to compensate". This sounds like you should be using the High Speed adjuster to deal with dive. Which is it????
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Bump...come on - at least one of you knows how this thing works 
TPC+ essentially involves a compression damper with two pistons instead of one. LSC adjustment is typical, an statically adjustable orifice that bypasses both pistons. As shaft speed and thus flow rate exceeds this orifice's capacity, the behavior diverges from a conventional damper.
Both damper pistons are conventionally shimmed, and one piston is fixed as per a conventional damper's compression basevalve. The other piston (the first piston in the compression flow path) is spring loaded and is free to slide along a shaft, getting closer to the fixed piston while compressing its spring (which sits between the fixed piston and sliding piston). From what I recall of these dampers, the HSC adjuster adjusts preload on the shimstack of the fixed piston.
Practically, this means you have a damper that is both speed and position sensitive. At lower compression velocities and positions, the sliding piston will move upwards with minimal shim-deflection (while compressing the spring between the two pistons) displacing oil through the fixed piston's shims - i.e. only the fixed piston and LS orifice size are restricting oil flow. As the sliding piston gets closer to bottoming out, flow is restricted by both pistons (and LS orifice) - because the sliding piston can't move out of the way as easily, and thus its shims must deflect more.
You should be able to see now how both the HS and LS adjuster will affect diving effects. Closing the LS orifice will provide more restriction at very low shaft speeds, but if the HS adjuster isn't turned up enough, the resultant increase in displacement of the sliding piston won't translate into a significant increase in damping (because as it moves upwards, it displaces oil through the fixed piston - and the shimstack on the fixed piston is what you are adjusting with your HS adjuster).
My advice is to run as much on the HS adjuster a you can without noticeable spiking on bumps / rockgardens / etc, while leaving the LS at a midpoint setting. From here, decrease LS if small bump sensitivity (low-amplitude fast impacts) seems to suffer, or increase it if you need more dive resistance.
Personally I think TPC+ overcomplicates tuning and is better off being converted to a conventional damper design, but to each (and Manitou) their own.
The image you posted is highly misleading at best, and completely retarded at worst (2D force-displacement graph with force-velocity annotations?), so just ignore it. TPC+ damper behavior needs a 3D graph to convey its function.
Also, I'm just replying because no one else has, I'm assuming the new Dorado TPC+ system hasn't changed much from the original in terms of piston functionality, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Hope it helps.
Both damper pistons are conventionally shimmed, and one piston is fixed as per a conventional damper's compression basevalve. The other piston (the first piston in the compression flow path) is spring loaded and is free to slide along a shaft, getting closer to the fixed piston while compressing its spring (which sits between the fixed piston and sliding piston). From what I recall of these dampers, the HSC adjuster adjusts preload on the shimstack of the fixed piston.
Practically, this means you have a damper that is both speed and position sensitive. At lower compression velocities and positions, the sliding piston will move upwards with minimal shim-deflection (while compressing the spring between the two pistons) displacing oil through the fixed piston's shims - i.e. only the fixed piston and LS orifice size are restricting oil flow. As the sliding piston gets closer to bottoming out, flow is restricted by both pistons (and LS orifice) - because the sliding piston can't move out of the way as easily, and thus its shims must deflect more.
You should be able to see now how both the HS and LS adjuster will affect diving effects. Closing the LS orifice will provide more restriction at very low shaft speeds, but if the HS adjuster isn't turned up enough, the resultant increase in displacement of the sliding piston won't translate into a significant increase in damping (because as it moves upwards, it displaces oil through the fixed piston - and the shimstack on the fixed piston is what you are adjusting with your HS adjuster).
My advice is to run as much on the HS adjuster a you can without noticeable spiking on bumps / rockgardens / etc, while leaving the LS at a midpoint setting. From here, decrease LS if small bump sensitivity (low-amplitude fast impacts) seems to suffer, or increase it if you need more dive resistance.
Personally I think TPC+ overcomplicates tuning and is better off being converted to a conventional damper design, but to each (and Manitou) their own.
The image you posted is highly misleading at best, and completely retarded at worst (2D force-displacement graph with force-velocity annotations?), so just ignore it. TPC+ damper behavior needs a 3D graph to convey its function.
Also, I'm just replying because no one else has, I'm assuming the new Dorado TPC+ system hasn't changed much from the original in terms of piston functionality, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Hope it helps.
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To help picture what's going on, the spring between the two pistons I refer to is the small horizontal silver spring on the far right of this picture. The next spring to the left is the return-valve spring for the fixed piston (the larger red piston), and the spring on the far left is the HS spring that is preloaded by the HSC adjuster and acts on the fixed piston also.
For those complaining about brake dive, I think the best thing to do is to remove the floating piston and its spring, then valve the main piston firmer to compensate. This leaves a much simpler damper curve, with no position sensitivity to worry about apart from the hydraulic bottom out. The "benefit" to TPC+ is a fork that moves more freely in its initial stroke, which can translate to more dive - thankfully it's (usually) pretty easy to remove this functionality without any permanent modifications given that TPC+ is just a small addition to an otherwise conventional damper.
For those complaining about brake dive, I think the best thing to do is to remove the floating piston and its spring, then valve the main piston firmer to compensate. This leaves a much simpler damper curve, with no position sensitivity to worry about apart from the hydraulic bottom out. The "benefit" to TPC+ is a fork that moves more freely in its initial stroke, which can translate to more dive - thankfully it's (usually) pretty easy to remove this functionality without any permanent modifications given that TPC+ is just a small addition to an otherwise conventional damper.
Thanks UDI, that definitely helps. The one confusing piece left is how to adjust the LS needle valve. There is no LS adjuster on the current gen Dorados. Instead for compression you have a HS adjuster and a TPC+ adjuster. Based on what you wrote above the HS adjuster seems straightforward, the TPC+ adjuster on the other hand...
From the Dorado manual:
"In the second case of high-speed shaft velocity, gravity forces the rider’s mass downward, deep into the fork’s travel (more than 100mm [4in]) from landing a jump or a drop. This damping characteristic is set by the TPC+ Adjuster. The TPC+ Adjuster is located on the bottom of the right dropout. It is red and is encircled by the black High-Speed Adjuster. The TPC+ Adjuster, when turned clockwise (counter-clockwise when referenced from the handlebars) will make the suspension firmer during high-speed, deep-travel events. Turning the TPC+ adjuster counter-clockwise (counter-clockwise when referenced from the handlebars) will make the suspension plusher during high-speed, deep-travel events"
AND
"A “Low-Speed” event is characterized by a short-travel (less than 100mm [4in]) low-shaft-velocity as a result of changes to the bike’s trail stance (i.e. berms, G-outs, pedaling, & braking). The low-speed characteristics of the fork will be dictated by the TPC+ adjuster. Note also that the lower the shaft velocity, the more this condition is controlled by spring force (air pressure)"
From the Dorado manual:
"In the second case of high-speed shaft velocity, gravity forces the rider’s mass downward, deep into the fork’s travel (more than 100mm [4in]) from landing a jump or a drop. This damping characteristic is set by the TPC+ Adjuster. The TPC+ Adjuster is located on the bottom of the right dropout. It is red and is encircled by the black High-Speed Adjuster. The TPC+ Adjuster, when turned clockwise (counter-clockwise when referenced from the handlebars) will make the suspension firmer during high-speed, deep-travel events. Turning the TPC+ adjuster counter-clockwise (counter-clockwise when referenced from the handlebars) will make the suspension plusher during high-speed, deep-travel events"
AND
"A “Low-Speed” event is characterized by a short-travel (less than 100mm [4in]) low-shaft-velocity as a result of changes to the bike’s trail stance (i.e. berms, G-outs, pedaling, & braking). The low-speed characteristics of the fork will be dictated by the TPC+ adjuster. Note also that the lower the shaft velocity, the more this condition is controlled by spring force (air pressure)"
Yeah LS adjuster = what they call TPC+ adjuster. It adjusts a fixed orifice, exactly like a conventional LS adjuster. Don't let the terminology fool you, this is a conventional compression damper with an additional sliding piston - the renaming is purely because the resultant LS bypass now affects how the sliding piston moves as well. In case I didn't already make it clear, the HS adjuster also simply adjusts preload on the HS spring (that acts on the fixed piston) exactly like in a conventional damper.
I don't think reading the manual or the graphs is helping you at all in this scenario, instead understand how the damper works (my post should help) and formulate your own theory if needed. Everything you've posted so far is confusing and in some cases even contradictory, so your frustration is understandable, but try starting afresh without the documentation.
A side note that might help understand how it works - if you remove the sliding piston (smaller one on far right), you are left with an entirely conventional damper. It has an LS adjustment (static orifice controlled by the "TPC+" dial) and a HS adjustment (variable orifice shimmed piston with spring preloaded by "HS" dial). This damper would need to be valved (shimmed in this case) firmer because the total damping would be lower (specifically deeper into the stroke, where the floating piston previously approached and reached the end of its travel, increasing total damping as it did this).
Conversely, in stock guise, the damper will have a tendency to be under-damped in the early part of the stroke OR over-damped deeper in the stroke if you crank the adjusters to compensate. That's not to say there isn't a decent setting to be found with the stock damper, but once you understand why this compromise exists, you'll understand how your damper works.
I don't think reading the manual or the graphs is helping you at all in this scenario, instead understand how the damper works (my post should help) and formulate your own theory if needed. Everything you've posted so far is confusing and in some cases even contradictory, so your frustration is understandable, but try starting afresh without the documentation.
A side note that might help understand how it works - if you remove the sliding piston (smaller one on far right), you are left with an entirely conventional damper. It has an LS adjustment (static orifice controlled by the "TPC+" dial) and a HS adjustment (variable orifice shimmed piston with spring preloaded by "HS" dial). This damper would need to be valved (shimmed in this case) firmer because the total damping would be lower (specifically deeper into the stroke, where the floating piston previously approached and reached the end of its travel, increasing total damping as it did this).
Conversely, in stock guise, the damper will have a tendency to be under-damped in the early part of the stroke OR over-damped deeper in the stroke if you crank the adjusters to compensate. That's not to say there isn't a decent setting to be found with the stock damper, but once you understand why this compromise exists, you'll understand how your damper works.
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Uhmm, anyone else having a coil-converted Dorado, guys? If yes, what are your thoughts on it and what spring do you use for it? Just checking to see if my opinion is the same as others.
The only spring compatible with the Dorado is the Boxxer one, 2010+. It's 29mm in diameter so it's perfect. Only modification on it is it needs to be cut down 60-70mm as it's too long. I am not sure if a Travis spring would fit, but they are more difficult to find.
But when a coil is needed for the Dorado, it has to be a really soft one. I am 90+ kgs and a soft Boxxer spring is OK for me, if not even a little bit on the firm side. I am looking for a super soft to try.
But when a coil is needed for the Dorado, it has to be a really soft one. I am 90+ kgs and a soft Boxxer spring is OK for me, if not even a little bit on the firm side. I am looking for a super soft to try.
Turning the HSC (outer) knob is supposed to turn the TPC+ (inner) knob--this is normal. This will not change your TPC+ settings when you do this. The TPC+ knob should be able to move independently of the HSC. Have you tried holding the HSC knob in place when you adjust TPC+?
Thanks PRIME, Yes i tried to hold the HSC (outer knob) then adjust the TPC + but it's very tough to turn. i think it was stuck? this fork is 6 months then this is the first time that i adjust.
thanks for accommodating my question
Hi all,
sorry to revive this old thread.
I have the MRD kit on my Dorado and I'd like to try to lower the air pressure in the main chamber and add some in the IRT chamber, does anyone know if I can go lower than the suggested 50psi in main?
Did anyone try that?
sorry to revive this old thread.
I have the MRD kit on my Dorado and I'd like to try to lower the air pressure in the main chamber and add some in the IRT chamber, does anyone know if I can go lower than the suggested 50psi in main?
Did anyone try that?