anyone have any news on the possible availability of this shock?
would you all even try it?
would you all even try it?
Manitou Evolver?
- Thread starter chillindrdude
- Start date
I would definitely ride it. You'd save some weight over a coil shock, you wouldn't need to buy springs, and if you're already checking the air pressure in yuour 5th Element/Swinger coil, another air pressure to monitor is no big deal IMO.
Hucker, Typically an air shock will be by nature more progressive due to the air chamber getting smaller as the shock compresses and as the chamber's size decreases, the pressure will rise and dramatically resist bottoming. Most coils springs are linear and shocks like progressive and Manitou use air pressure to resist bottoming. The "Evolver" has a huge air chamber which will help it to be more linear giving it a more coil-like feel. My SPV Sherman feels very soft and blows through it's travel easily with little or no air in the SPV chamber, but once the chamber is charged, the initial rate is plush but it gets much firmer (progressive) as it nears full compression until it finally becomes virtually bottom-out proof near the end of it's stroke. Air assisted coil sprung suspension seems to be the "hot ticket" for the time being but I foresee high performance all air suspensions for DH applications in the very near future!
For the record, hell yeah, I would try one of those!
For the record, hell yeah, I would try one of those!
Thank you JM
yeah I don't get it...is he serious?....DJm_ said:
I think I read October. I just ordered a bunch of '05 Manitou stuff including a Stance Kingpin 170 tpc hex and a Swinger 4 way air for my Sin. Should weigh about 33 lb.
I would have ordered the Evolver but didn't want to wait that long.
I'll post some pics and let you guys know how the new stuff works.
I would have ordered the Evolver but didn't want to wait that long.
I'll post some pics and let you guys know how the new stuff works.
the pedal worse? They blow through travel? They are linear?hucker13 said:
0 out of 3 aint bad. You are completely wrong on all 3 counts....good job tiger!
Man, with the potential to save around a pound of weight and have super-adjustability, plus the sensetivity of an air shock, I'm all for it. The one concern I would have is durability. I see at least one blown air shock per week at the shop...you can ride out of the woods on a coil shock with no damping, but not on a blown air shock.
Ahaha, but the lastest gem of wisdom from mountain bike actizzle gives us peons sage advice straight from the mouth of lord RC: "tie a stick to your shock, and lock that puppy out". Werd.
Anyone know if it will come in a shorter stroke than 3"
I'm intersted (well, not after putting down $500 for a curnutt, but that's another matter).
My concerns are the effects of temperature on the air spring caused by DH-abuse (a long Dh run where it doesn't get a chance to cool down). Sensitivity as far as "activeness" is also a concern. I don't think it's a "bad" idea, but before I put down money for it I'd want some input on these concerns. The idea is good, but whether it really turns out to be something for the masses that increases performance all around, or is something that applies more to racing where there might be some tradeoffs in suspension. I don't know if anyone quite knows this yet, but it's an interesting idea at the least. If it was good enough...maybe for my DH bike. Want some input on the fox DHX too
My concerns are the effects of temperature on the air spring caused by DH-abuse (a long Dh run where it doesn't get a chance to cool down). Sensitivity as far as "activeness" is also a concern. I don't think it's a "bad" idea, but before I put down money for it I'd want some input on these concerns. The idea is good, but whether it really turns out to be something for the masses that increases performance all around, or is something that applies more to racing where there might be some tradeoffs in suspension. I don't know if anyone quite knows this yet, but it's an interesting idea at the least. If it was good enough...maybe for my DH bike. Want some input on the fox DHX too
Give me that shock now.......yep I would try it. :evil:
:evil:
Hopefully, JM's concerns will be ironed out by production time.
Yeah, hopefully Manitou will make sure their production shock runs smoothly. (Cough, 888. Cough.)Tully said:
The manitou air shock looks rad, but based on my experiences with air shocks (4 -5 blown air shocks in 1.5 years 
vs. 2 blown coils in 7 years)... I'd be a little skeptical about the reliability, and yeah, I would be more comfortable being able to limp out of the forest with a blown coil.
Hey if they prove me wrong, I might reconsider...
vs. 2 blown coils in 7 years)... I'd be a little skeptical about the reliability, and yeah, I would be more comfortable being able to limp out of the forest with a blown coil.Hey if they prove me wrong, I might reconsider...
Well, there's also never been an air shock specifically designed and targeted towards the DH crowd, not to mention with an air chamber and a piston that big.cali4niabiker said:The manitou air shock looks rad, but based on my experiences with air shocks (4 -5 blown air shocks in 1.5 years
I agree, there are clearly some issues with air shocks that need to be worked out before this shock can be a success but I don't think much in the way of previous experience with air shocks is applicable to this particular design.. Kind of like saying that you don't want a Z.150 SL because you used to blow out SIDs.
He's not kidding, he's just 14. I'm glad to see some educated posts in this thread, unlike most of the others lately. It's obvious there are too many kids with too much time on their hands.
That air shock looks to be killer, I can't wait to try one! I'd be willing to bet we'll see a lot of them on all types of bikes (DH, FR, All Mountain) at IB.
That air shock looks to be killer, I can't wait to try one! I'd be willing to bet we'll see a lot of them on all types of bikes (DH, FR, All Mountain) at IB.
I think one of those would be sick on a long travel trail bike such as the IronHorse FR series of the SGS. Full range of adjustability - more so then is possible with any coil shock (nice and stiff for trail bike purposes, soften it right up to take it DH'ing), and much lighter than a coil shock too.Matt D said:
I'm sure the DH race crowd will take up with them for the weight savings but I just keep thinking how nice it would be to be able to adjust your shock for riding situations in just a few seconds with a pump. Even on the trail if one were so inclined.
I already microadjust with my Swinger on the trails!binary visions said:
It really does make a difference for climbing and downhilling.I too believe rising air temperature will be an issue with air shocks. Possibly the large volume in the main chamber of the Evolver will help remedy that.
I have an '04 Swinger 4 way air on my trail bike and am pleased with it's performance. The volume adjuster allows a great deal of tuning to match conditions. The SPV works very well.
I can't wait for my new one on my bigger bike.
I have an '04 Swinger 4 way air on my trail bike and am pleased with it's performance. The volume adjuster allows a great deal of tuning to match conditions. The SPV works very well.
I can't wait for my new one on my bigger bike.
Is rising air temperature a problem in your 04 Swinger, or do you just think it's going to be a much worse problem in the Manitou Evolver than all of the 5th's and Swingers out there?
crashing_sux said:
While you are not wrong, there are extended downhills and trails that I take on my DH bike that I do not even consider doing on my XC bike. It basically sees much more abuse, and my concern is not about some crazy failure or leaking, my concern is about consistancy. We know that shocks have changed because of these concerns, with external reseviors that hold more fluid and allow more heat to be dissapted. An air shock (spring) for DH is new territory.
I have had no problems with my 4 way swinger, but it's on my 4" bike.crashing_sux said:
We had a rider test a 3 way swinger on a 7.5" bike on some rough lift assisted runs. He complained of the shock heating up and getting much, much stiffer. I feel the larger bodied Evolver should hold up better.
I wasn't making a point, just asking a question. I see a lot of 5th's and Swingers riding the bike park here every day and with a few exceptions (some Swingers get hot and start squeaking/fading) they seem to be just as consistent as every other shock out there.
Their air chamber is undergoing repeated compressions as well, although it's much smaller. Just curious if other people have had problems with the air in their current DH shocks or were just wary of something new.
While I understand many people have blown XC air shocks I personally have only blown Romics (yeah, who hasn't?) and my Swinger and coil and air Fox shocks have held up great.
Just trying to get other folks perspectives out there. Fade is actually one of the few things I'm not at all concerned with. I really don't think this shock will make it on any of the pro bikes if it can't take repeated runs without fading, and if it never does well on pro bikes what are the chances that it will sell well anyway?
I'd love to be able to adjust the travel on my Nucleon without having to change springs, maybe someday it'll be a reality.
Their air chamber is undergoing repeated compressions as well, although it's much smaller. Just curious if other people have had problems with the air in their current DH shocks or were just wary of something new.
While I understand many people have blown XC air shocks I personally have only blown Romics (yeah, who hasn't?) and my Swinger and coil and air Fox shocks have held up great.
Just trying to get other folks perspectives out there. Fade is actually one of the few things I'm not at all concerned with. I really don't think this shock will make it on any of the pro bikes if it can't take repeated runs without fading, and if it never does well on pro bikes what are the chances that it will sell well anyway?
I'd love to be able to adjust the travel on my Nucleon without having to change springs, maybe someday it'll be a reality.
Jm_ said:
B
bighitfsr
Guest
You've got a pretty large air tight seal there thats going to introduce a fair bit of seal friction. One the main differences between coil and air shocks performance is the improved senitivity of a coil shock as you dont have a large air tight seal on a coil shock. Negative springs helped this problem but its still exists. The improvements that the negative spring technology made to air shocks is a good indication of how much extra friction there is in an air shock. Also consider that most rear shocks are not user servicable so keeping those air seals lubed might be an issue.
The large air camber helps keep it linear and fade free but doesnt help with the seal friction.
I'd definitely give it a try though, its the crazy ammount of adjustability that attracts me the most. Its potentially a lighter and cheaper solution than Ti springs. Its also a big advantage as an OEM component as its pretty impossible for product managers to spec the correct spring on a coil shock which means most customers are never going to use the spring that comes on a stock bike (or shouldnt use it anyway).
The large air camber helps keep it linear and fade free but doesnt help with the seal friction.
I'd definitely give it a try though, its the crazy ammount of adjustability that attracts me the most. Its potentially a lighter and cheaper solution than Ti springs. Its also a big advantage as an OEM component as its pretty impossible for product managers to spec the correct spring on a coil shock which means most customers are never going to use the spring that comes on a stock bike (or shouldnt use it anyway).
Fox air shocks are snap to service and I would think most could be made equally as easy to at least simply lube/replace the main seal. It takes less than 5 mins. Now to service the piston is the same as a coil so that is a bit more complicated although still possible by the user, but that has nothing to do with the air chamber/main seal...
I was just going to ask.. Never having owned an air shock, I'm not sure, but wouldn't an air shock actually be easier to service than a coil shock, considering you don't need to charge it with nitrogen? It's just air...punkassean said:
??
binary visions said:
Not quite true. Most air shocks simply use air as a main spring and internally the have the same guts as their coiled counterparts. The only shocks that come to mind that are comlpetely air are those made by Cane Creek. I have been less thrilled with teh performance of those.
If you've seen a dissasembled float, you'll see that it's really not that different than a coil one, still has a shaft and is still nitrogen charged. The exception to this is the 5th-element shocks, with those there is an internal floating piston and the air you pump in it serves the purpose (amongst other things) of the nitrogen in other shocks. Nearly all shocks have reseviors, floating pistons, and nitrogen charges, even though it's sometimes not obvious from the outside.binary visions said:
i bet i know where his thinking is comming from, albeit bad thinking.Transcend said:the pedal worse? They blow through travel? They are linear?
0 out of 3 aint bad. You are completely wrong on all 3 counts....good job tiger!
1-Air shocks are usually found on very regressive linkages
2-on forks, if you arent using the right oil level, you'll get the right sag (or even not enough) but blow right through your travel. The problem is air shocks can have a much higher preload than coils do to get an equivalent sag, but a low oil level means a lower rate as compared to a coil/air system. Came to this problem on my Shiver.
CoolJm_ said:
Thanks RD & Jm... Learn something new every day...
My 5 spot frame is coming friday... the DHX shortly to follow. Ill give as detailed a review as i can once i figure the thing out....... Cant wait!Jm_ said:Want some input on the fox DHX too
oly said:
Are they comercially available?
nope, from what i know manufacturers just started getting the first production runs-BB- said: