[Sandwich]

Yo...I got a new frame and am looking for a shock to build up. Was dead set on a mara pro, but I'm also considering a CCDB air IL from the last generation. Cost will end up about the same in the end. I haven't been pleased with the twin tube designs I've ridden in the past, but it's hard to rule out bad tune as the reasoning. I had a float X2 I didn't like and am riding a DHX2 now that just felt kind of dead. I haven't tried a CCDB though. Both shocks have a single position climb switch, mara has hi/lo compression and a piggyback which might occasionally come in handy.

 

[jonKranked]

I've got an air IL on my Scott spark which is basically a down country bike and I quite like it. It only blew on me once, but it all fairness it was overdue for service. When I had it serviced I paid to have it upgraded with the new piston head and air can which was a notable improvement.

No experience with the Mara, but if its like other Manitou products I would expect it to be user serviceable.

 

[HardtailHack]

I have a Mara on a DC bike, it's shit.

But, it's shit because I'm an idiot and put it on a frame that doesn't suit the spring curve, I ran out of money and could afford the Ohlins I had planned on buying.
I was going to give the New X-Fusion H3A a whirl but I'm pretty sure my frame is about to crack so I'm not going to bother.

Seems this is a 50hr service, whoa!

 

[Sandwich]

I have a Mara on a DC bike, it's shit.

But, it's shit because I'm an idiot and put it on a frame that doesn't suit the spring curve, I ran out of money and could afford the Ohlins I had planned on buying.
I was going to give the New X-Fusion H3A a whirl but I'm pretty sure my frame is about to crack so I'm not going to bother.

Seems this is a 50hr service, whoa!

Is that 50 hours, wow too much? or wow that’s easy?


what is the spring curve that the Mara is shit? There’s one dude who has my frame and says a Mara inline is a good fit with the king can, but that becomes an Expensive shock. The Mara pro is an iffy fit but I like the adjustments. Ccdb will require a travel adjust right off the bat, but tools are available.

 

[HardtailHack]

Is that 50 hours, wow too much? or wow that’s easy?


what is the spring curve that the Mara is shit? There’s one dude who has my frame and says a Mara inline is a good fit with the king can, but that becomes an Expensive shock. The Mara pro is an iffy fit but I like the adjustments. Ccdb will require a travel adjust right off the bat, but tools are available.

Coming from hardtails 50hrs seems way too short a timeframe to have to do all that stuff.

My frame is Degressive and the Mara Pro doesn't really ramp up enough with the King Can.
I am possibly the worst person to give input on rear suspension, my dual sus bikes went, Balfa BB7(5th Element), Corsair Maelstrom(Elka), 2008-9 Nicolai Ion(Stoy).
What size/stroke do you need? I'll take my bike out today to see if I can break it, It's 210x50mm
EDIT- Bike didn't break, sorry.

 

[Jm_]

Be aware manitou doesn't use an equalization divot, you have to unscrew the air-can to equalize it, which is bat shit crazy IMO. They should at least have a push-button equalizer in the air valve or something, like the Spec autosag thing. If you experience significant temp changes, your shock may start to suck down or be underpressurized in the negative spring.

 

[Sandwich]

Coming from hardtails 50hrs seems way too short a timeframe to have to do all that stuff.

My frame is Degressive and the Mara Pro doesn't really ramp up enough with the King Can.
I am possibly the worst person to give input on rear suspension, my dual sus bikes went, Balfa BB7(5th Element), Corsair Maelstrom(Elka), 2008-9 Nicolai Ion(Stoy).
What size/stroke do you need? I'll take my bike out today to see if I can break it, It's 210x50mm
EDIT- Bike didn't break, sorry.

Ah, yeah digressive is tough. My bike is all progressive this time around. Not dramatically so, but it should be best with a large air can and whatever spacers I want. Probably a king can or whatever equivalent makes sense on paper. I generally like my suspension somewhat linear.

Shock is a 165x45. Looking at a CCDB Air IL 165/40, then having to break and remove a spacer to get to 45mm

 

[Sandwich]

Be aware manitou doesn't use an equalization divot, you have to unscrew the air-can to equalize it, which is bat shit crazy IMO. They should at least have a push-button equalizer in the air valve or something, like the Spec autosag thing. If you experience significant temp changes, your shock may start to suck down or be underpressurized in the negative spring.

I agree that they could have planned that better, and I'm guessing that's why they are blowing them out- to make room for whatever is next. I guess I thought that it wouldn't be that big of a deal under most circumstances, but getting a shock with a modern air spring is of course a safer bet. I think the CCDB is the way to go, as I also bypass any clearance issues I may find and the shock is lighter. All good things. Just nervous about getting another twin tube that I won't like.

 

[HardtailHack]

I agree that they could have planned that better, and I'm guessing that's why they are blowing them out- to make room for whatever is next. I guess I thought that it wouldn't be that big of a deal under most circumstances, but getting a shock with a modern air spring is of course a safer bet. I think the CCDB is the way to go, as I also bypass any clearance issues I may find and the shock is lighter. All good things. Just nervous about getting another twin tube that I won't like.

Yeah it was pretty weird that they have almost proper dual air in their forks then they do the weird shit with the neg spring on the rear shock.
Travel adjustment seemed pretty expensive on the Mara if you decide to change stroke for some reason, I don't think it was a job for a pleb like me.

 

[jonKranked]

what frame is this going on? your new chinesium?

 

[Sandwich]

what frame is this going on? your new chinesium?

yarp. I'm excited...a shocking number of companies use this frame with their label on it.

 

[Sandwich]

Yeah it was pretty weird that they have almost proper dual air in their forks then they do the weird shit with the neg spring on the rear shock.
Travel adjustment seemed pretty expensive on the Mara if you decide to change stroke for some reason, I don't think it was a job for a pleb like me.

it's an odd choice for sure. I get the logic of why they wanted to move away from a dimple, but I can't forget my lefty that used a metal negative spring and therefore always topped out when set up to my weight. A better system in a vacuum, but far worse for 90% of users.

 

[jonKranked]

yarp. I'm excited...a shocking number of companies use this frame with their label on it.

nifty. do you just have concerns with the CCDB not playing well with the frame? or more that it doesn't suit your riding style? all but 1 of my current FS bikes have CCDBs on them (one air IL, one air CS, one coil).

 

[Sandwich]

nifty. do you just have concerns with the CCDB not playing well with the frame? or more that it doesn't suit your riding style? all but 1 of my current FS bikes have CCDBs on them (one air IL, one air CS, one coil).

Two issues:
The biggest is that the mara pro is a great deal, and the most comparable CCDB requires me to disassemble and remove a travel spacer. Not impossible, but I'll have to buy two new tools- an air seal tool and shaft clamps, which aren't bad tools to have around regardless.
The second is that I haven't been happy on any twin tube shocks yet. The X2 and DHX2 don't feel great, yet, and it's hard to tell if it's user error (derp) or that I simply don't get along with the shocks based on preference. This is coming from the BMC which is similar in its first part of travel to the chinesium, and doesn't do anything too weird.

I think the CCDB is the obvious answer here, I just have to break down and disassemble it which is a PITA, or spend another $170 to get it in the right stroke.

 

[jonKranked]

i'd offer to send you my air IL to try out, but its a 190x50.

personally i'd go with the CCDB, and ride it with the shorter stroke to see if i like it before investing in the tools in remove the stroke spacer. i like that the manitou products are user serviceable, but parts availability seems to drop off more quickly than with CC. i have a 2015 mattoc pro and when i needed to replace the footnut last year, i had to order it from suspension labs in new zealand. while CC will no longer do factory service on my OG CCDB coil (from 2010) they still supply parts to authorized service centers that will.

 

[Westy]

I like my coil Kitsuma but that is a whole different beast. My only issue with the CC stuff is that I wish they would offer different springs for the valving. I am not one to dismiss a shock because it has a poppet valve, there is no reason why a poppet valve cannot perform like a shim stack, you could argue a shim stack is just a type of poppet valve but it is easy to change the spring rate.

 

[kidwoo]

I like my coil Kitsuma but that is a whole different beast. My only issue with the CC stuff is that I wish they would offer different springs for the valving. I am not one to dismiss a shock because it has a poppet valve, there is no reason why a poppet valve cannot perform like a shim stack, you could argue a shim stack is just a type of poppet valve but it is easy to change the spring rate.

moar poppitz just doesn't have the same ring to it however

 

[Westy]

moar poppitz just doesn't have the same ring to it however

Mohr sproings?

 

[kidwoo]

Mohr sproings?

mer perobolikz!!

 

[Pneuma]

Maybe spend a few dollars more and get a non twin tube damper with a not wonky air spring?

RockShox Super Deluxe Ultimate

Designed for the latest hard-hitting enduro and trail bikes, the Super Deluxe Ultimate shock features the ride tuning abilities of an air spring with both compression and rebound adjustment to...

www.brandscycle.com

Or half a twin tube that people really like?

mountain bike rear shock ohlins 165x45 never used in box. Two available. | eBay

165x45 trunnion.

www.ebay.com

Inline shocks from Fox and RS are abundant at really good prices right now and seem like they would fit the use case.

 

[Westy]

Maybe spend a few dollars more and get a non twin tube damper with a not wonky air spring?

This is not the way of @Sandwich

 

[two-one]

yarp. I'm excited...a shocking number of companies use this frame with their label on it.

Which chinarello did you order? I'm riding one myself

 

[Sandwich]

Maybe spend a few dollars more and get a non twin tube damper with a not wonky air spring?

RockShox Super Deluxe Ultimate

Designed for the latest hard-hitting enduro and trail bikes, the Super Deluxe Ultimate shock features the ride tuning abilities of an air spring with both compression and rebound adjustment to...

www.brandscycle.com

Or half a twin tube that people really like?

mountain bike rear shock ohlins 165x45 never used in box. Two available. | eBay

165x45 trunnion.

www.ebay.com

The ohlins won't fit and the RS might, but if there were a way to run 0 sram products on my bikes and get what I want, I'd run 0 sram products. So I won't voluntarily run a RS shock when there are Fox options or literally anything else.

Inline shocks from Fox and RS are abundant at really good prices right now and seem like they would fit the use case.

Which chinarello did you order? I'm riding one myself

I bought an ICAN S3. What did you get?

 

[two-one]

I bought an ICAN S3. What did you get?

It's twin brother: carbonda fm936, but the 120mm version.

I went with a '23 Rockshox Deluxe. I like the simplicity of the lockout switch and 3 settings LSC@open.

 

[Sandwich]

It's twin brother: carbonda fm936, but the 120mm version.

I went with a '23 Rockshox Deluxe. I like the simplicity of the lockout switch and 3 settings LSC@open.

oh awesome! My understanding is the ICAN and Carbonda use the same from triangle (as does several others). How do you like it? I was waffling on size before settling on a medium. Reach will still be ~465mm with my 130mm travel fork, and it seems to fit my 170mm dropper so I think I made the right choice at 5'11".

Thanks for the tip on the shock. Those are available in the size I need but I fear not getting the settings I need. Sometimes it's an issue, sometimes it's not. I know I'll settle on settings for the CCDB and never touch it again, but hey.

 

[two-one]

oh awesome! My understanding is the ICAN and Carbonda use the same from triangle (as does several others). How do you like it? I was waffling on size before settling on a medium. Reach will still be ~465mm with my 130mm travel fork, and it seems to fit my 170mm dropper so I think I made the right choice at 5'11".

Thanks for the tip on the shock. Those are available in the size I need but I fear not getting the settings I need. Sometimes it's an issue, sometimes it's not. I know I'll settle on settings for the CCDB and never touch it again, but hey.

I love it, but it's loooong. So I ride it with a 50mm stem, which is very unusual for the (flat) kind of riding we do around here. But that seattube presses you right back into the center of the bike.
The finish is a lot better than the Chinese frames of 5-10 years ago.
It's the same front triangle, just like with the NS Synonym and the Vitus Rapide FS.
My Deluxe is a regular storebought Medium tune, and I never had a frame and shock that matched so well. I did put the max amount of volume reducers in.
I also have a 'progressive' aircan in the closet. It changes the character from XC to Trail instantly.
The LSC adjustment of the Deluxe ultimate is nothing like older platform settings like the Float RP series or Monarch RT's. It's actually LSC.

 

[Sandwich]

I love it, but it's loooong. So I ride it with a 50mm stem, which is very unusual for the (flat) kind of riding we do around here. But that seattube presses you right back into the center of the bike.
The finish is a lot better than the Chinese frames of 5-10 years ago.
It's the same front triangle, just like with the NS Synonym and the Vitus Rapide FS.
My Deluxe is a regular storebought Medium tune, and I never had a frame and shock that matched so well. I did put the max amount of volume reducers in.
I also have a 'progressive' aircan in the closet. It changes the character from XC to Trail instantly.
The LSC adjustment of the Deluxe ultimate is nothing like older platform settings like the Float RP series or Monarch RT's. It's actually LSC.

Awesome. That makes me feel better about going with a size "medium". Does the progressive can make it more XC or trail? I may take your advice on the RS, as my Monarch Plus was one of my favorite shocks and the mara was fairly universally panned.

 

[Sandwich]

It's twin brother: carbonda fm936, but the 120mm version.

I went with a '23 Rockshox Deluxe. I like the simplicity of the lockout switch and 3 settings LSC@open.

Do you know the tune on yours? Lots of m l1 380s out there

 

[Leafy]

Two issues:
The biggest is that the mara pro is a great deal, and the most comparable CCDB requires me to disassemble and remove a travel spacer. Not impossible, but I'll have to buy two new tools- an air seal tool and shaft clamps, which aren't bad tools to have around regardless.
The second is that I haven't been happy on any twin tube shocks yet. The X2 and DHX2 don't feel great, yet, and it's hard to tell if it's user error (derp) or that I simply don't get along with the shocks based on preference. This is coming from the BMC which is similar in its first part of travel to the chinesium, and doesn't do anything too weird.

I think the CCDB is the obvious answer here, I just have to break down and disassemble it which is a PITA, or spend another $170 to get it in the right stroke.

Good luck disassembling the CCDB. They dont sell the spanner wrench, mine was WAY too tight for a strap wrench or just a standard adjustable pin spanner. I couldnt figure out the right BB tool to hack up to make the spanner wrench either. And they dont sell rebuild kits so you're looking at yearly $300 rebuilds with cane creak.

 

[jonKranked]

Good luck disassembling the CCDB. They dont sell the spanner wrench, mine was WAY too tight for a strap wrench or just a standard adjustable pin spanner. I couldnt figure out the right BB tool to hack up to make the spanner wrench either. And they dont sell rebuild kits so you're looking at yearly $300 rebuilds with cane creak.

$300? I had my air IL serviced and upgraded with the new piston and air can for slightly less than that. Im pretty sure standard service is under $200.

 

[jonKranked]

Good luck disassembling the CCDB. They dont sell the spanner wrench, mine was WAY too tight for a strap wrench or just a standard adjustable pin spanner. I couldnt figure out the right BB tool to hack up to make the spanner wrench either. And they dont sell rebuild kits so you're looking at yearly $300 rebuilds with cane creak.

Is this the tool?

Cane Creek DB IL Glandnut Wrench

Tools for Cane Creek rear shocks TECH SPECS description glandnut wrench compatibility DB Air IL/DB Coil IL

northwestbicycle.com

 

[Leafy]

$300? I had my air IL serviced and upgraded with the new piston and air can for slightly less than that. Im pretty sure standard service is under $200.

I clicked the wrong number, meant $200. You have to pay shipping at least 1 way if not both too.

That does look like the correct spanner, glad someone finally came out with one.

 

[Sandwich]

Good luck disassembling the CCDB. They dont sell the spanner wrench, mine was WAY too tight for a strap wrench or just a standard adjustable pin spanner. I couldnt figure out the right BB tool to hack up to make the spanner wrench either. And they dont sell rebuild kits so you're looking at yearly $300 rebuilds with cane creak.

It's all a big conspiracy, man Was going to buy this tool to get it done. $27 ain't bad.

 

[jonKranked]

It's all a big conspiracy, man Was going to buy this tool to get it done. $27 ain't bad.

Looks like some other custom tools I've bought on ebay, have been happy with the quality

 

[Sandwich]

Looks like some other custom tools I've bought on ebay, have been happy with the quality

my space man tools (or whatever they are) fork cap wrenches worked great, right up until I sold all reasonable forks and replaced them with wacky things.

I don't think it would be an impossible task, but it's yet another tool I won't ever use again.

 

[two-one]

It's all a big conspiracy, man Was going to buy this tool to get it done. $27 ain't bad.

Pretty good deal. I 3dprinted them all, worked fine too.

Do you know the tune on yours? Lots of m l1 380s out there

@Sandwich, that Deluxe I run is just a regular M/M tune. Works great.

 

[Sandwich]

Pretty good deal. I 3dprinted them all, worked fine too.


@Sandwich, that Deluxe I run is just a regular M/M tune. Works great.

Hmmm, thanks. Are you able to comprehend the difference in the "M" and "L1" tunes here:

https://www.sram.com/globalassets/document-hierarchy/tuning-manuals/rockshox-rear-shock-piston-tuning-guide.pdf

The L1 seems lighter overall, but with additional face shims?? I saw one commenter say that the LC and L1 may be more progressive than the LMH tunes but lighter overall...I'm guessing that means more HSC effect and less LSC, in laymans terms?

 

[Sandwich]

One other question since we're here: if the LR changes from say 3:1 down to 2.5:1, the damping effect will be higher/firmer, correct? So an M tune would produce less damping effect on a higher LR bike than a lower one (so an M tuned shock would feel firmer on lower LR bike)...or is that backwards?

 

[two-one]

Hmmm, thanks. Are you able to comprehend the difference in the "M" and "L1" tunes here:

https://www.sram.com/globalassets/document-hierarchy/tuning-manuals/rockshox-rear-shock-piston-tuning-guide.pdf

The L1 seems lighter overall, but with additional face shims?? I saw one commenter say that the LC and L1 may be more progressive than the LMH tunes but lighter overall...I'm guessing that means more HSC effect and less LSC, in laymans terms?

The LC & L1 have a two-stage stack, which indeed makes it more progressive. Less LSC, more HSC. First the weak first stage starts to open, until it passes the crossover shims, adding more damping in that range. This stuff is incredibly difficult to design as a hobbyist, but it seems that RS can make it work.
Evil Bikes has the tendency to use these softer tunes for their frames, which would explain why a lot of reviews call their bikes more shorttravel trailbikes than XC/responsive. However IMHO for a 100-120mm platform with modern antisquat and modern air springs, compression damping is not that very important anymore.
My buddy is riding the same frame as me with a Deluxe-B1 with L1 tune from an Evil Following. He loves that bike.

One other question since we're here: if the LR changes from say 3:1 down to 2.5:1, the damping effect will be higher/firmer, correct? So an M tune would produce less damping effect on a higher LR bike than a lower one (so an M tuned shock would feel firmer on lower LR bike)...or is that backwards?

You are completely correct

 

[HardtailHack]

the mara was fairly universally panned.

I bought a Z1 coz Marzocchi brah! And all the reviews said it was good, but that damper was a bag of shit and only the supposed morons on forums seemed to notice how shit it was.