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Marketing DH - at its best...

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by ludovic, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. ludovic

    ludovic Chimp

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    What's the best marketing you have seen in a long time?

    I came across this one... which was like "classic":
    A full face helmet is required to ride Timberline, no full face-no ride.
    We do not rent DH bikes, protectve gear or helmets
    Good or bad, we have no easy DH trails

    The same entity was just complaining yesterday about how they weren't doing so good with biker-visits this year.
    I am sorry, and I don't mean to be a butthead... just goes to show that there's humor even in poor marketing.
     

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  2. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    I always got a kick out of the DW hype train the arrives every time he releases a new product. It's not to say they aren't good bikes, but some of the early reviews always parallel walking on water. "I could lay this bike over at 15* and keep pedaling" was eerily similar to a quote I read on here when the new DHR first came out.

    The FSR stuff is always pretty funny. It's another way of uncoupling the brake from the swingarm, but specialized puts no concern into their main pivot, making a bike that brakes well but doesn't pedal as well as a single pivot.

    Treks slew of marketing terms like 'full floater' is a joke too.

    I think you could start a thread circling around product claims that are backed up in reality or physics, and get a much shorter list.
     
  3. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Have you heard of Ellsworth bikes?
     
  4. dropmachine

    dropmachine Turbo Monkey

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    In the past couple of years the Canfeild boys have taken the cake for marketing rubbish at its finest. I remember them touting the Jedi as the "fastest bike in the world". I bet all the bikes that win championships would argue that one.

    They still have a few funny ones (Crampon & Crampon Ultimate Pedals from Canfield Brothers, effectively lower your bottom bracket by 8mm/.25″...lol wut) but are much better.
     
  5. Tetreault

    Tetreault Monkey

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    Santa cruz has some outrageous claims back when they started with VPP. Anyone remember the "S" curve wheel path, i think they have even come out now and said that was total bs made up by their marketing team in 2004...
     
  6. Jeremy R

    Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    For some reason my favorite one is the Maxxis ad: This tire was designed with traction in mind.

    :rofl: Like other tires are designed to slip the F*** around everywhere. Good times.
     
  7. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    the freehub drag was gold.
     
  8. profro

    profro Turbo Monkey

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    At least its a claim that can't be proved wrong.
     
  9. Jeremy R

    Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    Actually the ad was for that Ardent which was quite turdy for a Maxxis tire. I think I remember
    you getting a few scabs from that tire yourself. ;)
     
  10. profro

    profro Turbo Monkey

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    Yep. True story.
     
  11. trib

    trib not worthy of a Rux.

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    The Tollwut thread
     
  12. Pslide

    Pslide Turbo Monkey

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    Too many examples to list. It's easier for me to think of the rare times when there was actually good marketing...

    Here's what I came up with:


    More: http://www.adverbox.com/media/campaigns/2006/05/gt_bicicles_02.jpg



    And finally the Fox Racing Shox ad that ran in Dirt after he won World Champs featuring this moment, except .02 seconds later and in full whip...



    This is the only good marketing that I can remember in the past 10 years...
     
  13. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    how can you mention GT without this one?
     
  14. bizutch

    bizutch Delicate CUSTOM flower

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    Bad marketing to me is any frame made in Europe that they even bother taking a photo of.
     
  15. Pslide

    Pslide Turbo Monkey

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    That one hit a little too close to home for me... :)
     
  16. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Well, to be fair........some of their tires clearly were NOT.



     
  17. Sandwich

    Sandwich Pig my fish!
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    there was another that was great, it was a K2 ad, i think, with a wicked expensive bike on the top, and a shoddy old chrysler beneath it. I can't seem to find it online. It may have been palmer, but it was pretty cool.
     
  18. HardtailHack

    HardtailHack used an iron once

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    In all industries there are many great companies. Such is the same in the world of bicycles. Here's the big question - Why Morpheus Cycles? A few factors help separate us from the crowd.

    A large part of our philosophy is that if our bikes are not suited for the best riders in the world - they certainly will not good enough for our customers. We have not and will not release any model unless a single frame lasts at least and entire season on the world tour in the hands of our factory riders.

    This is a level of stress put on the frame that 99% of our customer s bikes will never experience, however we feel it&#8217;s necessary. Many companies make a product only as good as it needs to be and accept a certain percentage of failures &#8211; to us this is failing. In an industry were a 3-6% failure rate is acceptable, Morpheus Cycles has a historical failure rate of .02%. This unparalleled record is even more impressive because of our strict focus in the gravity sector, which has a substantially higher rate of failure than the typical manufacturing %. This durability and reliability is what provides our customers peace of mind and an excellent value.

    Most importantly, we are focused on making sure each bike we produce is a top performer in its class. For example; the 2013 Vimana is the stiffest Dirt Jumper in the industry while also maintaining the shortest chain stay. Our newest generation Skyla has the most compact geometry and is the lightest Slope Style bike on the market. Loki, our all mountain build is a bike that can be ridden all day, anywhere &#8211; with sub 30 lb. builds and the ability to make it through a week of torture at Redbull Rampage, it&#8217;s capability is tremendous. The innovation and commitment to excellence Morpheus Cycles has will continue in 2014 with the release of our full carbon DH frameset with 3 incredible new features proprietary to Morpheus alone
     
  19. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    I remember asking Morpheus guys a few questions on their FB page. I love how they claimed their BB pivot carbon dh bike was super fast because the frame was more aerodynamic. I am not kidding. They mentioned it a couple of times in different places.

    The sad thing is - idiotic marketing works on 99% of the people. I work in the movie business and the taglines, posters and trailers that make people go sit ****ty movies are really simple and dumb.
     
    #19 -   Feb 1, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
  20. stiksandstones

    stiksandstones Turbo Monkey

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  21. troy

    troy Monkey

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    Maybe not DH but...
     
  22. joeg

    joeg I have some obvious biases

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    Is this an example of win or fail?
    - the fact that I have to ask is sad, but honest question
     
  23. ritche

    ritche Monkey

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    hey you worked at SC bikes, i remember SC have some share of proven marketing crap!

    on the V10.3, the website said during the testing phase there is no difference between the 9.5 x 3.0 shock vs. the 8.5 x 2.75 shock, so the production V10.3 used the 8.5 x 2.75 shock.

    Ironically, SC FLIP FLOP, on the shock to use, they used a 9.5 X 3.0 shock V10.3, for Peaty and GM on their 2009 WC V10.

    from the site: (proven lame marketing)
    When we were developing the new V10, we tried a couple of versions with longer shocks, as that is what the hypemeisters are hyping these days. After riding both versions, we came to some conclusions:
    1) The 9.5&#8221; shock and required longer spring added over half a pound to our frame. Trying to develop a light weight race frame requires a lot of gram counting, and a half pound is huge.
    2) It didn&#8217;t ride any differently. We did blind back-back testing on two prototypes (the only difference was shock stroke, we made a custom frame and link) with a bunch of people, and nobody could identify a difference.
    3) The extra ¼&#8221; of shock stroke really isn&#8217;t that much. Instead of using a 500# spring, you would probably use a 450. Not a big difference for an extra half pound. A 3.5" stroke didn't work with the VPP linkage to get the shock rate curve that we wanted, isn't available from a variety of sources, AND weighs a ton.
    4) Our pro race team has been racing V10s since 2001. The frame has always had 10 inches of travel with a 2.75" stroke shock. They don't have problems with shocks, nor could we find any evidence from our personal experience or warranty records to back up claims that lower leverage/longer stroke is better for the shock.

    We tried to like it, because we've been asked about this, uh, frequently. But in the end we decided that measurable performance was better than theoretical advantages, and went with the lighter configuration.

    **In the end we have a change of heart, because competition is using 9.5 x 3.0 shocks like ih sunday....... joke!
     
    #23 -   Feb 4, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  24. jackalope

    jackalope Mental acuity - 1%

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    I'm not sure if joe was with scb when they switched the shock size on the V10, but joe himself explained why the initial "S" shaped axle path was just marketing equivocation (at best). As for the shock size issue, I actually spent a fair amount of time on the 2.75" stroke V10 and I thought it rode just fine once you jettisoned the DHX 5 for a decent shock. So I'm not sure if they really didn't believe what you cited in your example. I never rode the version with the longer stroke shock, so maybe it rides 200% better, but I happen to think their main issues were reducing frame weight and tweaking the geo - which it seems like they addressed in a big way with the current model.
     
    #24 -   Feb 4, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  25. weedkilla

    weedkilla Monkey

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    Honest answer, meh. It strikes of the things we have all heard ad infinitum, and because of that they have lost their impact. 10% lighter, 20% stiffer, bender can't break it, blah, blah.

    Because I am reading this out of context I may be judging too harshly, but IMHO good marketing gets your interest in an instant. The stats and figures can back this up, and helps justify a purchase, but the initial grab needs to be quick and clever.

    Many moons ago - I think original or v2 specialized epic - a magazine ad ran the line "because every ride is a race". It pictured a couple of guys on a trail ride and one had clearly dropped the hammer. It was an ad that resonated with anyone who had ridden a bike, as we've all been in that situation where a casual trail ride turned into an impromptu race. In the fine print at the bottom was all the usual 1000% pedal efficiency, lightest ever, made from clarified organic butter stuff so you could convince yourself that you didn't just buy a bike because of one good line.

    Good bicycle marketing says in an instant why I should buy it, then justifies that claim. Will I be as fast as Minnaar? Will I be able to do epic skids, whips and manual it around the carpark forever? Will I beat my mates? Will I have the sexiest thing in the shuttle queue? What is it about this bike that appeals to my sense of who I want to be? Buying a new bike is an emotive decision first, which we then justify with whatever rationale we can.

    As to SC changes of mind that goes against previous marketing? I wouldn't take that on board, SC have proven to develop products to fit needs, or when they have a better answer, not as an attempt to have the latest thing every year. In my mind SC almost get a free pass because they let an engineer and some racers sell their bikes, not marketeers with a shiny suit and a Bluetooth headset. (I will add that when SC start using a press fit BB I expect a REALLY good explanation!!!)
     
  26. joeg

    joeg I have some obvious biases

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    There's a high likelihood that any BS marketing coming out of SCB was due to me being wrong about something and telling the marketing guy bad info. But the issue below isn't one of those things, at least not as clearly. I wrote what you posted, so I feel compelled to defend it since I still hold it as true, generally.

    When we designed the V10.3 it was the heyday of "LOW LEVERAGE IS AWESOME". We tried some stuff like using a 3.5" stroke shock which people thought was really cool at the time, but that made it hard to find the right spring, even on a 10" travel bike. And we wanted to use the lightest shock possible on the V10.3, so shorter is better for that goal.
    At that point in time, probably around 2006 iirc, Rockshox didn't have the Vivid, so the team was racing Boxxer front, but using a Fox shock. The team didn't have any issues with it they expressed to us - they probably didn't get much race support from Fox on that shock either since Fox was not a sponsor. Our internal testing of both 2.75" and 3.0" using Fox didn't lead us to change it during the design phase. For the record, that 1/4" of stroke requires a 3/4" i2i increase, so the damper is bigger and the spring is bigger.

    So we finish the V10.3, and the Vivid came out, and the team were racing on it. They have a rear shock tech who is trying to tune that shock in 8.75 X 2.75 to the liking of Greg and Steve, and they had issues with getting enough compression damping with the bike and the shock - I remember somebody saying they had all the shimz in the trailer in each shock, and still had to go up higher with spring rates than they felt was ideal, like running 15% sag or something.

    That feedback came back to us, and at that time we were making some custom sizes for Steve and Greg to have bigger bikes than the stock large, so we designed to use the longer stroke as well, which they used and they liked it, and everyone was happy. When we designed the V10.4 (first version of carbon), we built in that size for production so the team was running stock bikes. We added an 8.5" travel option that got slack and low for the public, the team didn't want that setting, and didn't use it for the next two years.

    Ironically, when they move to Fox suspension was made, they all ended up preferring to use the 8.5" setting, which could use the 2.75" stroke, but it wouldn't work very well using a Vivid Air (an option we offer), and while we could make the team custom links to save a few grams, Fox tech guys are happy to have the extra oil volume of the larger shock to help with heat management, and keeping things stock is easiest for everyone when possible.

    Hopefully that clears things up Ritche. If there's more "proven marketing crap" that I'm guilty of, I'm happy to explain, I try to be honest when we make mistakes, and typically don't talk lots of sh!t or make stuff up. I wanted to get that S shaped axle path error out in the open a while back, that was a mistake an employee made, and unfortunately it had legs. You can see why marketing guys love that stuff though, it sticks in your mind even if its fiction.

     
    #26 -   Feb 4, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
  27. joeg

    joeg I have some obvious biases

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    we now advertise threaded BB as a feature, which is hilarious to me.
    "the most compatible, easy-to-service, creak-free BB standard in the world"

    I want to run a full-page ad extolling the virtues of this technology. marketing is considering it....
     
  28. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    You should.

    Grumpy assholes like me check that box when looking for new frames. And we have more money than teenagers who don't remember when things worked better. :)
     
  29. rideit

    rideit Bob the Builder

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    Run with it, Joe.
    Some kind of homage to
    'The Wonderful...More Than You Can Believe!'

    that would be awesome.
    Maybe have Zap schilling it!
     
  30. weedkilla

    weedkilla Monkey

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    I think you probably do need to sell the idea. Press fit is becoming so widely used that you probably need to explain the decision not to use it. The risk of looking like the last holdout of square taper, or threaded headsets is too great to ignore.

    That, and the fact that you are right. Although I guess this thread proves you need a disclaimer - "unless the technology improves" - to ward against a future where press fit bottom brackets aren't crap.

    Although while you are hanging around...... Any truth in the idea that the wider frame at the bottom bracket (available with press fit) is an advantage?
     
  31. joeg

    joeg I have some obvious biases

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    when journos are cursing pressfits (thanks Ryan) - I think we're over the hump. We debate it internally for reasons of "sellability", but there's not much debate now that press-fit BBs come with threads to go together without creaking. When that started happening I started lacing up for a victory lap... For awhile there I was concerned we'd be stuck as curmudgeonly holdouts, but we rode it out. On something like 142/157 thru axle we embrace the change and expedite revisions. And not because we can measure it being stiffer, but its better overall construction and streamlines der hangers across all models.

    Could be, but this is usually BS spinning. That area of the frame is also prone to rock strike damage, so if you have sufficient stiffness with less surface area, one can use the material to increase wall thickness to prevent that without weight penalty (this is the other angle, but people don't care about it).

    In DH - which this thread is about, we already have wide BB shells. When you're talking road or cross, I can see this being a more valid argument - hardtails with smaller tires have different constraints than mtn. PF doesn't give you width to play with over a 73 threaded BB, its just larger diameter. BB92/93 types don't give much extra width either, because you have a granny gear and ISCG tabs to accommodate as well - if you give any thought to making sure those things are accommodated.

    Bottom line: people only talk about "wider BB shell/stiffness" when they use PF BB shells, because PF BBs don't actually have a reason to use them, so its a distraction. In my opinion.
     
    #31 -   Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
  32. jackalope

    jackalope Mental acuity - 1%

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    Well sh!t, joeg just ruined the thread with actual industry insight and rational responses. Thankfully, I can use the block feature so I don't have to read his nonsensical babbling and can get back to the important business of wild specualtion and pseudo engineering.

    Personally, I think it sucks the V10c doesn't have a bottle cage holes so I can put a carbon downtube guard on it...or a bottle cage for that matter.
     
  33. HardtailHack

    HardtailHack used an iron once

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    "Great solution for Shimano cassette users who require that one more, extra sprocket on steep climbs. Very simple to install, it fits behind 11-36 cassettes, displacing one sprocket from the main cluster.


    If you don't know which option would be better for you, then just go for a ride and observe which of these two sprockets (11 & 17) you will miss less. Study shows, around 90% of mtb riders do not use 11T sprocket in terrain."

    If you supposedly don't use the 11t gear try a smaller front ring and you may not need a 40t rear?
    38-40= 1.05-1 36-36 is 1 to 1 so a 5% lower ratio needs a longer chain, adds weight and looks stupid.

    I know they are useful but saying a gear isn't used on the trail is fine if everyone carts their bike around on their Audi All Road and just needs a pseudo granny ring to get to the coffee shop at the top of the bike park.
    I am a dinosaur, if I can't pedal it on 36-32 I get off and walk, I'm fat so it's ok ;)


    EDIT- If my slightly tipsy mathematics is correct dropping the 11T is stoopid.

    Drunk maffs, left calculators are stock system dumping the 11t and adding a 40t rear, right side is just swapping to a 32t front ring.
    If you ran their second suggestion and dump the 17 it would work well but their No1 suggestion is retarded!

     
    #33 -   Feb 22, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  34. mattmatt86

    mattmatt86 Turbo Monkey

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    In the short amount of time I've ridden XX1, on a demo bike, I thought the best part of the whole system was the redesigned derailleur. For 98% of my riding I can get along just fine with a 32T ring and a 11-36 cassette but for whatever reason, the shifting of the XX1 derailleur felt sooo smooooth.
     
  35. pe6u

    pe6u Chimp

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    Smaller front ring - more pedal feedback.
     
  36. tacubaya

    tacubaya Monkey

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    "...rear quadrilateral onda curve asymmetric with extraordinary and infinite precision.. "

     
  37. Jm_

    Jm_ Turbo Monkey

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    I've seen that before. Good stuff.