my M-arch 8888 was never cool according to the internets
Marzocchi 380 C2R2 Ti & Moto C2R Shock
- Thread starter Trekrules
- Start date
My 380 showed up today. Feels so light out of the box, I'm wondering if there's any oil in it. I am thinking that the 5.5 spring that it's speced to have is going to be too light under my 215 lbs. The manual in the box looks like the one I reviewed of their site (no help, per long tradition), and no luck getting a tech on the phone today at Marzocchi USA for spring rate/start settings recommendations. Hope they have heavier Ti springs available if needed. Anyone bought one from Marzocchi recently? Are there cheaper sources than direct?
7.7 is what you need for sure, skip the 6.5 as it wont work for you
definitely 7.7, the 888 was so progressive and with firm stock high speed damping most people wouldn't try the 7.7 as they might have only just got full travel with the 6.5. The new fork is so much more tuneable you hsoul jump straight on a 7.7.
7.7 without a doubt. Don't even waste the money/time on a lighter one.
Thanks Guys. Before I went to a 66 a few years back, I always had to go to a X-heavy spring in my bombers. With the 66, I got by with the air assist. Can't say I'm too thrilled having to replace a Ti spring I can't use. It would be nice if we could just buy them street price with the right spring in the 1st place. What am I going to pay for this spring, and how much of a PITA will it be to get & install? I hope Zokie had the sense not to release the 380 without having the springs we need to use it. On a more positive note 
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Damn that is light. I know hacktastic and I have been yelling at the engineers and sales guys for YEARS about the springs issue. They know damn well it's a serious problem, but continue to do nothing about it.
ya they are light i held one several weeks back they claimed 6lbs and from the scale they are damn close . is that a taper steer or straight ?
As far as I know, the tapered isn't out yet. It may be closer to 6lbs even after I cut the steerer and take the bumpers off (new V10 has bumpers on the frame).
Any idea what these Ti springs will cost?
i was quoted close to $300 for a ti spring for my 66 by Alex at Marz is North Van he told me the weight savings is not worth the cost
There's a few production reasons for not having a harder spring, will be interesting to hear feedback on spring rates in the new fork though. It might still happen
If Marzocchi wants to charge me $300.00 for a Ti spring, on top of what this fork costs to make it usable, I'll consider selling it and buying a Float 40...and I've been running Zokies exclusively since '99. I'll post up after I talk to them. I did verify they were open yesterday after I left a VM. 3rd call this am went to VM again.
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I was getting just over 50% sag on the stock 5.5
Its amazing they dont change the rate
Its amazing they dont change the rate
It seems Italians are very small people.
They really should just sell it with 3x steel springs, like the boxxxer, then allow you to buy the right weight spring after the fact. I guess that would cut down on the forced obsolescence of not allowing a ti spring in a regular fork though.
While I think the idea of including 3 springs with the fork has a lot of merit, it would be helpful if one of the springs worked for 180-200 lb riders. I'm 200% convinced the 6.5 N/mm spring is substantially too firm for riders in that range. Either their spring rates are whack, or they need to offer a 6.0 N/mm spring.
6.5 is not too heavy, the stock compression stack is too firm so that is what you need to change. I weigh 70kg and I would ride the 6.5 no problem
And in a lot of cases 200lb is 7.7 spring territory
And in a lot of cases 200lb is 7.7 spring territory
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^^
Good point, and for clarification, I was referring to pre-2012 EVO models. I was hoping they would've addressed this issue with the 380, and perhaps they have for all I know (i.e. such that a 6.5 N/mm spring works for a 180-200 lb rider without having to modify the comp shim stack). In retrospect, I should've been more proactive when Zoch was designing the 380 and sent them a picture of a Cracker Barrel dining area and recommended they design the North American shim stack around the ground slothes shoveling down buckets of fried mayonaise balls.
Good point, and for clarification, I was referring to pre-2012 EVO models. I was hoping they would've addressed this issue with the 380, and perhaps they have for all I know (i.e. such that a 6.5 N/mm spring works for a 180-200 lb rider without having to modify the comp shim stack). In retrospect, I should've been more proactive when Zoch was designing the 380 and sent them a picture of a Cracker Barrel dining area and recommended they design the North American shim stack around the ground slothes shoveling down buckets of fried mayonaise balls.
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I'm about 185-190# and I ran the 6.5 spring for a while, and eventually the 7.7 with a reduced oil height, which worked the best.
Somewhere I worked out the nominal rates versus that of Fox and RS, and they're basically 1 step lower. Fox offers a 1 step stiffer spring than Marzocchi does if I remember right.
If you weight 200#+, the lost weight savings of the Ti spring will mean absolutely nothing. Just take a dump before you ride.
Somewhere I worked out the nominal rates versus that of Fox and RS, and they're basically 1 step lower. Fox offers a 1 step stiffer spring than Marzocchi does if I remember right.
If you weight 200#+, the lost weight savings of the Ti spring will mean absolutely nothing. Just take a dump before you ride.
If anyone wants replacement 380 springs I can get you Ti's for $190 shipped to the U.S. Even cheaper if you buy the fork from me!
What they should do is just have 3-4 SKU's, one for each spring. It's not that hard, and wouldn't add much if any cost. For OEM solutions they can just spec the spring based on frame size (M-"stock", L-firm, XL-xfirm). This whole requiring a $200+ fee just to get your $1800 fork sprung properly is ridiculous. Even if they were swapping springs, it takes all of about 5 minutes to swap a spring with the proper tools if you have a shop space setup for it.
But yeah, these forks are crazy light, I'd just just eat the extra 1/4 pound and buy the steel firm/xfirm if I were getting a 380. No way a 1/4 is worth an extra $150-200 on a 6 pound fork if you weigh 200+ lbs. IMO.
What they should do is just have 3-4 SKU's, one for each spring. It's not that hard, and wouldn't add much if any cost. For OEM solutions they can just spec the spring based on frame size (M-"stock", L-firm, XL-xfirm). This whole requiring a $200+ fee just to get your $1800 fork sprung properly is ridiculous. Even if they were swapping springs, it takes all of about 5 minutes to swap a spring with the proper tools if you have a shop space setup for it.
But yeah, these forks are crazy light, I'd just just eat the extra 1/4 pound and buy the steel firm/xfirm if I were getting a 380. No way a 1/4 is worth an extra $150-200 on a 6 pound fork if you weigh 200+ lbs. IMO.
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some people claim the opposite...
In what context? I have ridden these forks and set up countless riders from weekend warriors to world cup racers, the overwhelming feedback is the stock fork is too harsh on braking bumps (ie HSC, or the shim stack). If you back the compression adjuster out it dives too much, so a lighter stack means running the LSC mostly closed without getting the harshness.
If you are running too soft a spring of course it is going to feel like you don't get enough damping even with the adjuster closed, but the problem is fixed with more spring rate, not damping.
Sorry but the MOAR SHIMZ mindset isn't quite right, you want the minimum amount of damping to control unnecessary weight shifting but too much and you lose traction or soak up energy. The spring is what does the bulk of the work in a suspension unit so if it isn't right then you are just going to waste energy and the bike will get bogged down when the trail gets proper rough
is your experience with the new 380 or with the old 888?
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, have you by chance tried the additional oil in the spring side method? In my experience anyway, its a great performing fork with fairly light comp and VAR damping. I fully understand the innate desire to have the perfect spring rate, but I honestly cannot find much to fault with my current set up (5.5 spring, 200 ml oil in spring side, 180 rider).
Spoke with Marzocchi this pm, and was told spring rates from previous forks are not good benchmarks for the 380, and that a 7.7 would likely be too stiff for me @ 215lbs, unless I was "very aggressive". The recommendation was to ride the "standard" spring and go up as needed. For me the recommended rate was 6.5. When pressed, I got the following weight ranges for the 380, with the disclaimer that rates are riding style dependent:
120-150lbs/4.4
155-185lbs/5.5 (standard)
185-220lbs/6.5
220+lbs/7.7
The warning on the 7.7 was that they have had some heavy weights find that spring too stiff, this from Marzocchi conversations with me, and the dealer I bought from. I was told the 7.7 may require a shim stack adjustment for my weight.
I'm told swapping the spring is done by removing the top cap/preload adjuster knob as an assembly, pulling out the old spring and dropping in the new one, so NBD there,
Retail on the new Ti springs is $280.00, but they quoted me $140.00 shipped on a new fork swap out. That's $100.00 over what the steel spring costs, so worth considering for 4oz of weight, especially that far forward. You can say 1/4lb ain't squat, but if I took that attitude on all my parts, my V10 would weigh 40lbs. $ for grams may be better spent there than for a carbon crankset, for example, which is low and centered in the bike.
When I brought up the spring swap/expense issue, they countered with direct order to get the correct spring. I pointed out that in practical terms, the street vs MSRP price of the forks makes that option financially impractical ($1849.00 on the 380). I think Gemini's solution is the most practical I've heard, except for balancing the pre-packaged fork/spring rates with actual demand #s. Maybe they could provide a coupon code matched to the box UPC for the spring of choice. This could be handled with a dedicated web page, and placing your spring order when you order the fork might have both inbound at the same time. They might point to mechanically challenged consumers, but if you can install the fork, you should be able to change the spring. I doubt this option would delay many shop builds, since I can't remember any shop having all the parts for any of my build orders in stock at once.
120-150lbs/4.4
155-185lbs/5.5 (standard)
185-220lbs/6.5
220+lbs/7.7
The warning on the 7.7 was that they have had some heavy weights find that spring too stiff, this from Marzocchi conversations with me, and the dealer I bought from. I was told the 7.7 may require a shim stack adjustment for my weight.
I'm told swapping the spring is done by removing the top cap/preload adjuster knob as an assembly, pulling out the old spring and dropping in the new one, so NBD there,
Retail on the new Ti springs is $280.00, but they quoted me $140.00 shipped on a new fork swap out. That's $100.00 over what the steel spring costs, so worth considering for 4oz of weight, especially that far forward. You can say 1/4lb ain't squat, but if I took that attitude on all my parts, my V10 would weigh 40lbs. $ for grams may be better spent there than for a carbon crankset, for example, which is low and centered in the bike.
When I brought up the spring swap/expense issue, they countered with direct order to get the correct spring. I pointed out that in practical terms, the street vs MSRP price of the forks makes that option financially impractical ($1849.00 on the 380). I think Gemini's solution is the most practical I've heard, except for balancing the pre-packaged fork/spring rates with actual demand #s. Maybe they could provide a coupon code matched to the box UPC for the spring of choice. This could be handled with a dedicated web page, and placing your spring order when you order the fork might have both inbound at the same time. They might point to mechanically challenged consumers, but if you can install the fork, you should be able to change the spring. I doubt this option would delay many shop builds, since I can't remember any shop having all the parts for any of my build orders in stock at once.
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888, but the springs are the same
40 pounds is light for a bombproof build for a 225lb guy
Thank you thank you
Nah, they know damn well what the weight distribution of their riders is. They know how many forks they've sold, and how many of each spring they've sold. They'd just have to factor in a reasonable estimate for how many heavy guys have been running stock springs that were too stupid/cheap to move up a rate or 2. Which is probably significant. They've been selling 888's for years. If they haven't generated and saved that kind of sales/market data, they suck at life.
They also think the fork should ride 40% of the way into it's stroke, and never bottom out with an excessively high oil height in it. As I call it, Marzocchi Pneumatics.
Get the spring rate correct, set the oil height so it's not interfering with every single input to the fork, and you'll be able to feel what the damper is actually doing, and adjust from there.
Get the spring rate correct, set the oil height so it's not interfering with every single input to the fork, and you'll be able to feel what the damper is actually doing, and adjust from there.
My '13 V10 frame w Ti CCDB & a 380 will weigh ~14lbs. Might be tough to add another 24lbs unless I'm pulling a trailer
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I use at least 150cc in the spring side but I don't think it would make much difference until it was up past 350cc, and even then only at the very end of stroke, which the damper leg already gives more than enough progression.
If people are happy with what they currently have then that's great
but I suggest at least trying some different shim settings, at least just to get a better feel for which changes effect what on the trail
The 380 comes with 60cc per leg. The spring is interchangeable with '12-'13 888 Ti forks. Anyone know if there are any other forks that can use this spring? I'd like to sell my 5.5, but chances of that seem pretty dismal.
In my experience all the steel and Ti 2008+ 888 springs are interchangeable, tapered, straight stanchions, all the same. I bet the 380's fall into that category too.
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I weigh between 150-160 with gear and the standard spring is perfect for me. 25% SAG without any preload and amount of travel is used like it should be. With an additional 16OD-shim and original oil heights it's perfect.
FWIW, there are several monkeys who have used the oil in spring side trick to great effect from what I've read, and they're nowhere *near* 350 ml. I think Ih8rice used 250 ml and OGripper used 220 ml, and they're both bigger guys. With the OEM spring and oil height, the fork was super divey and I could bottom it pretty regularly, REGARDLESS of what I did with the VAR and comp adjustment (i.e. all the way in). With the added oil and about 6 clicks of comp and a click or 2 of VAR, it sags correctly, soaks up hand obliterating chatter, and rarely, rarely bottoms out (and never harshly). 6.5 sping, no comp, no VAR, no preload and it was laughably harsh and uncontrolled. With comp and VAR, it was essentially a heavy rigid fork. I'd love to use the 6.5 spring, but I'm not terribly inclined to take apart the shim stack in order to make it perform correctly. That said, if I drank enough sh!tty bourbon one evening and decided to give it a go, is there a video guide and what's the recommended shim stack diameters?I use at least 150cc in the spring side but I don't think it would make much difference until it was up past 350cc, and even then only at the very end of stroke, which the damper leg already gives more than enough progression.
If people are happy with what they currently have then that's great
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I dumped a bunch in my spring leg, brought it up to about 300; too progressive and spikey spring, knocked i back down to about 150 total and its still plush, but a touch more progressive and less occasional clangs off deep hits.
If memory serves, you're more apish in size than monkeyish, in which case, what spring are you running?
Sounds to me like the VA piston was blown if you had no progression before. Also the spring leg has an alloy cup in the bottom of the leg that oil has to flow through if you fill it up over about 160ml. You basically turn it in to a ported damper.
There no video, and shim diameter doesn't matter as long as the ports are covered and you assemble them in a tapered order. I would try removing one shim first in combination with the hard spring. If you find it's harsh, it is because if the hsc, not spring.
I've tried more oil, less oil, more shims, less shims, harder spring and softer spring before coming up with these tips. There isn't much I haven't explored in the 888, so I'm keen to see how the 380 compares
Stay on topic, this is a 888 tuning thread, not a 380 thread
Thanks, good info. In short, how difficult is it to disassemble the damper and remove a shim(z)?
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