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Massanutten, snowshoe and Wolf Laurel Dual Slalom

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by GPERKINS, Feb 12, 2008.

  1. GPERKINS

    GPERKINS Monkey

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    I know this year Massanutten will hosting a downhill race as alwlays but will they be having a Dual Slalom race to? if not, what is the reason why?

    Also, after seeing the snowshoe Dual slalom track last year, It honestly stunk, will be course be changed to have more jumps and rythm sections this year? I also think that it would be a good idea to ask what the riders would want in a good slalom course and bring it to life because they have the potential to build something awesome

    And will Wolf Laurel be having slalom races this year, couldent find any info on anything Wolf is having

    Thanks,

    Austin
     

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  2. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    Mass. did ds back in the late 90's - I think the last one was around 00' It was about as long as Sugars last one.
    Don't know why they quit but, I think I heard they din't like the construction going on the hill??

    Honestly the best course on the bunny slope hill at Snowshoe was the old school slalom at the last National there.
    Which had an unjumpable triple on it, as the only jump section, and the two sets of berms coming off the start hill.
    That hill is never utilized correctly to make the most of it, and about the best attemp to build jumps there was in 06'

    Don't know about Wolf but, I remeber seeing the DH might have issues due to land being developed into housing or something.
     
  3. Murphy's Law

    Murphy's Law Monkey

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    God that 05 slalom course at snowshoe pissed me off. i seriously could have taken a crap where the course was and put forth less effort than they did to make one.
     
  4. GPERKINS

    GPERKINS Monkey

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    I dont know why Snowshoe puts no effort into there DS course, it's not like they are limited on dirt, if they would spend as much as time on there DS course as they do on there downhill courses then I quarantee they would have 2times more people race, witch equals more money for them
     
  5. Murphy's Law

    Murphy's Law Monkey

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    at the 05 National, they vested all of their dirt and man power to building this rediculously fun mountaincross course, that sucked ass to race cause it was all out to the first two turns than follow the leader for a minute and change
     
  6. GPERKINS

    GPERKINS Monkey

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    I think it is pure lazyness
     
  7. jvnixon

    jvnixon Turbo Monkey

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    So what are you going to do to help?
     
  8. GPERKINS

    GPERKINS Monkey

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    What I can do is e-mail the trail director at Snowshoe and dress our concern on this topic.
     
  9. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    Well, emailing might seem like it'll do something, but honestly bitching and moaning won't get anything done. To build a slalom course up there costs money, usually to the tune of several thousands to get what you had last year....and prior years.

    Why, you ask....well, it's the way corporate ski resort worlds work. Think of each department is treated as it's own entity, in which each tracks it's own portion of the business. Everything from labor to the tools that are used to do a specific job comes out of each departments budget. If a department (ie, mtn operations) does a job for someone like the Mtn Bike staff, the operations crew time and expenses are charged to the mtn bike dept/outdoor adventure........and not at any cut rate, it's all straight up costs.

    So, for example:

    Dirt to make a 4x track = labor to dig, transport, and pile up. Fuel for the dump truck, dozers, etc. Rental for any equipment needed (ie, dozer). That's all charged to the mountain bike dept/outdoor adventure.......ranges from probably a couple hundred a day to several thousand.

    Oh, you want the dirt shaped into jumps, berms, etc....= skilled labor, equipment rental, fuel, etc.....again hundreds to several thousands.

    Next up, race materials (# plates, gates, start gate, etc), staffing for the race (medics, race crew, etc), sound equipment, timing equipment, all that good stuff........that's thousands alone!!!!

    So, all this for three slalom races. Might not seem like much effort was put into the course, but honestly you don't see all the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. When the mtn bike programs budget isn't more than peanuts in the grand scheme of the entire resort, it's not hard to see that we are lucky to have what has been put up in the years past. Guys like Trevyn, Brad, and their crew have poured heart and soul into the trails and the slalom course.........and frankly, calling it pure laziness is like slapping them in the face. Would you rather have nothing at all?!?!?

    For the record, the mtn x courses of years past, as well as the Monster Park courses, ate up 90% or more of the entire mtn bike programs yearly budget.

    If your going to email and complain about the slalom course, save yourself the time and just post it up on here.....a few Snowshoe guys browse these forums quite regularly. If your still going to email, man up and offer up your help, time, and handywork in making the changes.....get out there and push some dirt around with those guys, then come back and tell us of the newfound respect you have for their hard work and effort.

    Not coming down on you or pointing anyone out specifically. Rather, I'm just saying that sometimes you need to think about your comments before you post up exactly what is on your mind at that moment.
     
  10. Jettj45

    Jettj45 Monkey

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    I know snowshoe use to do volunteer weekends, do they still? I bet they could get enough racers/riders to come down on some weekends and give some free labor to put together a decent slalom track. I know I would be down for that...just feed me haha.
     
  11. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    If it cost that much to build a slalom what does the DH cost, wow?

    I am not doggin any of those guys efforts, although the first race in 07' was pretty bad, going into one berm like that.
    My request isn't for a bunch of dirt, but a good layout on the hill mainly.
    You can use the same amount of dirt as the past two years and have plenty to make a good slalom.
    Many dogged the National DS course, walking it before the race - including myself. But, the ones who signed up and raced
    it said it was much funner than the 4x that year.
    A good use of the hill that has NO CLIMBING on it and two seperate lanes the whole way create the best race course poss. - FACT!
     
  12. GPERKINS

    GPERKINS Monkey

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    I agree, the layout of the course could be changed for a better route and still use the same amount of dirt. Any suggestions??

    And I do understand about the cost and stuff, but if a little bit of rerouting and stuff to have a better course would bring in a lot of more racers, witch equals more money for them, and I was not going to e-mail them and do nothing but tell them how much there course sucks, obviously we are pretty blesses to have the resort up there in the first place, But I was going to suggest some more alternate routes and such to make a better course and have volunteers to come up and help
     
  13. ztlh13

    ztlh13 Monkey

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    Our first DS race at ETSU took about three weeks to build with shovels and it is one of the best DS tracks that I have raced.

    Too bad the first year got rained on. So no to make a good DS track does not require heavy machinery or massive amounts of dirt. That's MTX. If they would let some people come up with some dirt and shovels, give them free board and free race entry they could get the workers and the course they need.
     
  14. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    See, again your not understanding the problems at hand here......follow me here:

    Years ago, Snowshoe did ask for volunteers to come up and help. Riding passes/fees were promised, and the staff served up plenty of beer, offered up lodging at their own expense. The result, only a handful of diehards that were always coming to Snowshoe showed up.......plenty of people promised help, preached their desire to help, but stood back and did nothing only to criticize everything come that summer!!!

    You need to understand what I said above, each department is essentially it's own entity with it's own budget......which is needs to live and die by, make what they state no matter how it gets to the end number (ie, layoffs, cutbacks, etc). There is no chance in hell that Lodging/Housing will ever be given out free for volunteering.....that department will never let that happen, it's lost revenue no matter what time of year. When the mtn bike program offered lodging to volunteers years ago, the lodging folks charged that all back to the mtn bike program. Several volunteers staying for a few nights is extremely expensive and eats up precious funds that could be going to trails, so more often then not those volunteers slept on couches, floors, spare beds, etc of the mtn bike program staff and others involved.

    I know my couch, floor, spare bunk beds were always occupied by friends who where up there volunteering cause the mtn bike program just couldn't afford to house them for a weekend! I was glad to put up anyone that was willing to help. However, aside from a few hardcore Snowshoe regulars and friends that we could convince to come up and help, our call for help (and offer of goods in return) went largely ignored and unheard!

    Snowshoe certainly isn't keen on having volunteers come in and do work on something that is a safety concern. There are a lot of issues to work through (worker injury, compensation for time off, liability insurance, etc) and more often then not those issues kill anything like volunteer help or seeking outside help that isn't hired, paid, or contracted. There is a very huge difference from building on private property or building on public property (with or w/o permission) than building on property owned and operated by an entity trying to make a profit.

    Lastly, have you guys ever seen the dirt at Snowshoe?!?!?! If it's not rock, it's a mixture of crap that is super hard to work with. In order to get good dirt to make a course, be it a 4x or slalom, heavy machinery IS required up there.......no way around it. Luckily Brad is trained and extremely talented in using the machines to build/sculpt course features.

    Could a better spot be picked for a slalom course? Sure, but if you pick another slope your away from the village, which just happens to be where most people hang out and where your potential to draw a crowd is the best......mtb'ers or otherwise. Why spend a ton of money on a course farther down the mountain, such as the mtn x courses of years past, where the only folks that see it are the racers and a few people who just happen to wander down there?!?!?!

    Sorry, but with Snowshoe the slalom course on the bunny hill (Skidder) is what your likely always going to get.......it's a backwards mountain (in both physical layout and business practices) and it'll always be that way.
     
  15. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    A little re-routing on the bunny slope (Skidder) and the course almost always turned out to be a straight line drag race! For example, the first year NORBA instituted the mtn x discipline, the mtn x course was build on Skidder and shared many features with the amatuer slalom course. Both courses had to be so straightened out due to lack of space and lack of elevation drop and trying to cram a course into a relatively tiny space.......if you made it to the first corner first, 9 out of 10 times you won on either course.

    Also, to re-route on that particular slope usually involves some uphill sections and/or lots of traversing to make a race worthy course. You can have a fast and straight layout, but the race will be over in 10 to 20 secs, or less..........not 30-45 or more.
     
  16. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    Hulkamaniac

    Did you design the last DH course last year?
     
  17. bizutch

    bizutch Delicate CUSTOM flower

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    I gotta chime in real quick and agree with some things on ALL sides.

    1.Posting even 1 sentence that is just flat out negative will multiply itself into anomosity and nothing else said in a constructive way will be noted. So ask questions and offer positive thoughts or reccomendations, then sit back and wait for a response.
    2. Terry's right about his course...it took a crew of dedicated volunteers a relatively short time to put their course in..but it was a unique situation b/c it's on the campus of a university and nobody digs like frat boys with beers and nothing else to do all day. Oh, and that was NOT rain..that was Earth having a bowel movement on Johnson City!
    3. Snowshoe's course WILL be limited by being in the village, but there is NO place else it can go, so we can live with it. But, what makes slalom exciting is the gates, not the jumps or the length of time of the race. Helen, GA had a slalom with almost no jumps but tons of berms and gates...and was one of the most exciting slaloms ever.
    4. Hulk's comments about the soil at Snowshoe was dead on. Want a more thankless task...try using a rake and shovel to build even a single jump at Plattekill! Man that sucked. Rake a rock...leave a hole...rake a rock...leave a hole...rake a rock...the jumps gone!
    5. We are all VERY lucky to have the guys at Snowshoe that we do. Trevyn is about the best representative/liason we can have. A talented rider with a tremendous work ethic and excellent communication skills and from what I've seen, no ill temper. And Brad, Kalen and the other diggers...I mean come on? Know anyone else willing to live their life in the sticks all summer. Most people would go insane being isolated up there!

    5. Be THANKFUL! Snowshoe the furthest thing south for full time DH and we don't want anybody ruining our shot at that mountain every summer.



    As for Mass, no they won't have a slalom. George got lucky and had a bunch of dirt brought in to build their snowboard park the one year so he had them bring it in early, had Joe Haley and some others shape it..then it was all used and gone. No more DS...the DH goes from sun-up to sun-down and nobody complains.

    Wolf Laurel, aka, Wolf Ridge you can email mbrp07@yahoo.com for details of this year's event structure. I've been told he's still having one this year, but not directly..only word of mouth.
     
  18. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    Unfortunately no, that was all Brad and Trevyn. I only wish I could take credit for a course that fun! I haven't worked at Snowshoe for about 2.5 years now.
     
  19. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    Ok, who are you?

    And yes, that was my favorite course ever at snowshoe and near the top of my list for best courses anywhere.
     
  20. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    Butch

    What's up with your positive attitude lately? Also encouraging others to be positive. Keep it up.

    BTW: I would be up for a straight up grass dual slalom at Massanutten with only a start, some gates and a finish line. I'll even bring a start gate and turn gates with flags if someone can help to make it happen. Grass slalom is a ton of fun to race.
     
  21. ztlh13

    ztlh13 Monkey

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    Sorry to hear. Wish I had known back then b/c I was motivated to dig and build much more than lately. I still think they could get some people to show up and help. As a ski resort they have special laws that safeguard against stupid MTBers getting hurt on their slopes. Yes that relationship changes slightly when you invite them but essentially they could gather a volunteer base for the right incentives!

    I have to side with Butch that Snowshoe is a DH mountain and that is what buses people up there in the summer. DS, MTX, Dual are dying in the US except Colorado!

    Good news is there will be an ETSU dual race this summer. Let me know if anyone here knows a great date for the race?
     
  22. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    Actually, there really isn't a "exempt from liability" clause in any type of "special law" that keeps a resort from getting sued by anyone doing anything on said resorts property. Don't believe, check out the Big Bear, CA case...it may have been Big Bear at fault, but just because the rider signed a waiver and bought a ticket knowing the dangers didn't stop them from getting sued and ultimately closing the program down. There are literally tons of cases of this very thing happening in the winter time, it's something every resort takes into consideration and has insurance policies to help protect them. The harsh reality is, no matter what a person is doing at a place like Snowshoe, whether it be invited volunteer work or riding on their own....even if they didn't purchase a trail pass........they can bring a case against the resort, the owners, and probably even the land owners (most resorts are on long-term land usage leases from the federal gov....this is the case with Snowshoe as well, cause it's in the Monongahela National Forest).
     
  23. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    Ha, just some random guy that thought working at a resort, living in the middle of nowhere, and trying to put heart and soul into an mtb program from it's infancy was what I wanted to do with my life. That was until I saw the reality of the ski/resort industry first hand, which caused me to move on and find a much better quality of work and life. Seeing the inside of that world first hand, combined with hearing the constant negative criticism about the resort and the work you put into it....that's enough to drive anyone away!

    BTW, that course left me feeling like my KTM would have been a better choice that day!!! It was, by far, one of the better courses I have ridden in over 10 years of dh riding/racing.
     
  24. bizutch

    bizutch Delicate CUSTOM flower

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    I looked at my buddy the first night after checking the weather and said "Hell yeah...I got my 2.8"s!!!"

    Oh and Chris, as for my positive attitude, I'm just saving up my brutality for your next wait at the bottom. I'll be bringing a special laminated plackard on a Nike lanyard to go around your neck that says "SPECIAL PASS 4 MATCHING UNIFORM"....:happydance:
     
  25. bizutch

    bizutch Delicate CUSTOM flower

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    Even better Chris:
     
  26. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    Thanks for reminding me to make up some special passes. Do you want some and a matching jersey too? :)
     
  27. bizutch

    bizutch Delicate CUSTOM flower

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    I've got the matching gut to go with it. :thumb:
     
  28. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    Skidder isn't the best hill but, certainly can be layed out in a way that keeps
    from climbing and isn't straight down. The first 4x course doesn't deserve to be talked about period.

    I am not trying to be negative and I think everyone is just wanting to see a good course.

    It almost sounds like Hulk is saying a good course isn't possible with the politics etc. involved.

    Once again if we could get two lanes all the way and a couple doubles, and a couple berms (where needed) to flow,
    I know a good course can be had there.
    I am just trying to throw reccomendations out there, I don't know who will have a hand in this.
    If I weren't 10hrs. away and already making a hell of a haul up there I would volunteer a days work,
    that is all it would take with the right design,
    a little help from some volunteers and something to move a little dirt.
     
  29. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    Ding, ding, ding!!!! Your finally starting to put it all together!!! Unfortunately, until you've worked behind the scenes at a place like Snowshoe, you'll be very hard pressed to put it all together. What seems like such a simple task, a simple request, is in reality a huge undertaking and likey a huge upset at a place like Snowshoe.

    Just ask anyone that used to work up there. You put in your two cents, passionately fight for what you feel is the best thing for the resort, get people on your side.......only to have the higher-ups and the inside politics shoot you down. The turnover of employees up there is horrendus and most, if not all of it, stems from what I have just described. Up there, you either get hip to that way of things or you realize that a job/workplace doesn't have to be that way and you move on.

    Not speaking bad of the place, I still thoroughly enjoy Snowshoe......lived there for nearly five years, it'll always feel like home! However, the constantly changing staff and upper level management/corporate driven decisions make it hard to let Snowshoe be all it can.
     
  30. stoneysnake

    stoneysnake Monkey

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    i saw some really good racing on the dual courses the past 2 years at snowshoe, at least that's what i thought but, i don't remember the uphill sections. i think it was meant to be dual and not dual slalom also which would be 2 into 1. thanks for the comments!
     
  31. ChrisKring

    ChrisKring Turbo Monkey

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    Brad

    Take my input for what it's worth (since I am only one person), but I would race the dual if it was 2 seperate courses top to bottom rather than the combining deal. It's just a little too much of a take out deal with the set up the past couple of years for me. I race moto too and a little rubbing isn't the problem. It's the going full bore into a narrow step on step off jump with some kid that's totally sketched out. I need to go to work on Monday and have much more fun racing DH to risk getting jacked up when someone slides out into me. Like I said earlier, I love grass DS. However, I am sure that I am one of the only people that does.

    Keep up the good work down there. I loved the courses last year.
     
  32. GPERKINS

    GPERKINS Monkey

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    I think we have defintley cleared the subject up. Snowshoe is by far a DH resort and they are damn well good at it to. The slope that the DS course is not the best hill in the world but they dont have any where else to go so we will deal with it. But the course could be rerouted to be better

    heres a pic of the course

     
  33. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    The upper section was good except it was one of the parts most wrong with it going into one lane.
    Why? It was never even, lane choice gave the advantage 8 out of 10 times.

    The lower part was too easy, meaning no technical aspect to turning etc. - as far as jumps go that can be an opinion.
    It was too easy to me but, beginners were loving it.
    It was just too pinned out and didn't have any passing oppurtunities without T-boning someone.
    There were a few passes but, you shouldn't be "out of the race" if you didn't qualify top 4
    which is how most of them finished exactly as you qualified due to lane choice.

    If you were to go with the same format as before "Duel" into one lane, some opps for passing would be better.

    It didn't really go uphill the past two years, but, did in the past few before. Still could have utilized the hill a little better, the euro turn kinda went uphill
    or at least slowed the action down. Maybe if it had went further and had another turn past that and finished where it used to by the lift?

    In my opinion the finish should be almost the fastest "climax" to make a course exciting.
     
  34. denjen

    denjen Certified Lift Whore

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    Glad to know the annual Snowshoe whine, bitch and cry thead got off to a good start this year.:disgust1:
     
  35. Hulkamaniac

    Hulkamaniac Monkey

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    Seems like it's an annual requirement of posting on RM doesn't it....

    Like I said in one of my earlier posts, everyone is quick to criticize and complain when given the opportunity. Very few talk of all the good that has happened in the last few years. Trevyn and Brad have given us courses, trails, options, opportunities, etc that otherwise wouldn't have even hit the radar screen of resort management.
     
  36. JeffD

    JeffD Monkey

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    I <3 Snowshoe
     
  37. Metal Dude

    Metal Dude Turbo Monkey

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    I ain't complainin bout the DH for sure - The courses last year were outstanding. Would just like to see the Slalom up to the same standards.
    I think more people would race it if it were.
    Thought that was what forums were for, to communicate and deliberate amongst one another
    to make things better. Everyone always takes any comment that isn't "That Sh!te rules" as being negative...