Mavic EX 823 & EX 721/D521 rim debate

DÃR · Apr 28, 2004

...but I haven't caused any real damage to my D321's that are run tubeless, and I'm a bruiser - 200lbs, ride in nothing but rocks. If Acadian's going thru 823's every weekend because of the lack of tubes, I should at least have more than a couple minor sidewall dings after a full season on 321s w/out tubes....

math2014 · Apr 28, 2004

Brian

I think that everything lies on what goes on the bead of the rim (sidewall edge). It cannot be explained otherwise since all 3 rims are made of maxtal 6000series alloy (which more or less should be a 6061 equivalent with a fancy name).

I would be very much impressed if anodisation had to do with structural properties.

Since mavic has only the 521 and 321 rims...and i want something just in the middle in terms of strength,weight and width... i ll give a shot at the new Sun MTX rims.

The 823 rim is 4mm more narrow than the 321, it doesnt have double eyelets (inserts instead), yet it is only 40gr lighter than the D321, which in other words means that they ought to have the same strength relatively to their respective widths. At least that is the case with the 521 vs 321 comparison.

So it all boils down to the UST sidewall properties.

now lets start a "BUY SUN" rant...

Horrendous Hack · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by math2014

now lets start a "BUY SUN" rant...

It's all about the Alex Supra Sigmas!!!

punkassean · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by math2014

now lets start a "BUY SUN" rant...

Lets not and say we did! Sun rims are so much lower quality than Mavic, But then again I am a Mavic and Chris King kinda guy. I still stand frim with my d 3.1's, I have mobbed them hard and they are holding up great.

math2014 · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by Acadian
and we will see as soon as I start using Stan's with my rear 521's. I was in Laguna this past weekend and saw yet another guy come down with a pretty pitiful looking rear 823's...that was on his FIRST run and he claims he didn't hit anything hard!!

Are EX823 rims just rebadged singlewides in UST form??? coz from what you say here ...they are single-run rims.

:end of rant.

A usefull test would be to see how the EX819 behaves in comparison... maybe the UST cannot handle the extra width yet...or just mavic copied the 819 into a wider form without taking any extra DH-measurements into construction.

DÃR · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
What tire are you using?

Maxxis Minion 2.5's most of last season, put a Mich. 2.8 on in October/November.

Fulton · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by math2014
Are EX823 rims just rebadged singlewides in UST form??? coz from what you say here ...they are single-run rims.

:end of rant.

A usefull test would be to see how the EX819 behaves in comparison... maybe the UST cannot handle the extra width yet...or just mavic copied the 819 into a wider form without taking any extra DH-measurements into construction.

the ex823's are mavic's

DÃR · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
The 2.8 is a lot of tire.

Yeah, I know but a) it was in the front and b) it was not on there for the vast majority of my riding season last year. April/May/June/July/Sept./Oct were Minions and all my races....

math2014 · Apr 28, 2004

Yes it was a joke about the rebadged 823s

Mavic are top notch rims, Sun are top notch in my books as well, and from what is said in RM , arrow is top notch.

Personally, when i was a kid i dreamed about having mavics on my bike. Now i am indifferent to any brand...as long as it is good and it does what i want it to.

All i have to add is that Mavic is putting a lot of effort into supporting the UST trend. And that is not the best thing to do , because market wise she is trying to push everyone into UST.

In 2003 they released the X618 rim, which is 100% an XC/trail version of the D321 rim...with double eyelets and CD anno...just narrower.

For 2004 they discontinued this rim obviously for pushing the X3.1(819) into the XC/trail market as the only high-end solution.

Another point to add... UK LBS where told and almost conveinced that the UST rims are tougher stronger and stiffer than non-UST rims, and that ideally even non-UST users should get UST rims regardless of tire (tubed) choice given the "said" advantages mentioned by Mavic reps.

The above are not in no way an anti-mavic rant. I love mavics... i just wanted to post some odd points here.

Spunger · Apr 28, 2004

I have used Maxxis, Intense, and IRC tires on my Mavic D521's (ex721's) and had no difference in sideway etc... The Intense were by far the stiffest (almost too stiff for my liking) to get on and off the rim. If Michie tires are like Intense then I don't want em!

Maxxis and IRC have been the best to get on and off and seem to have decent traction. The Maxxis have more than the IRC do but I'm running Maxxis on the Arrow DHX rims (close to a D321) and the IRC's on the EX721's. Both seem ok at this point.

I keep seeing pics of maxxis UST tires but haven't seen UST tires from Maxxis pop up on online stores yet.

Funny thing is I was gonna get the Mavic UST tubeless rims until I thought about it, and thought about it, and said no. They are wide but not that wide. What Mavic should have done was made a D321 UST. I don't know if this year if the Deemax wheels are similar to D321's or more like the D3.1's. I don't always think wider is better but if you're running a 2.8 or 3.0 tire you're gonna want as wide as possible.

I dunno if I'd buy Sun rims. I am heavy, hard on my wheels, and just want them to work (reason I use Arrow) but have considered using D321's. If Arrow fell off the face of the earth I'd be on Mavic stuff. I like their stuff.

I think Sun is the only non UST making a rim. I know Arrow and Mavic have UST/tubeless rims out. I think tubeless is great in most aspects but I just want it without the goo! When a solid rim comes out and there's UST tires galore then I'll make a switch.

math2014 · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by Spunger

I think tubeless is great in most aspects but I just want it without the goo! When a solid rim comes out and there's UST tires galore then I'll make a switch.

WORD

no more comments....you covered me 100%.

Curb Hucker · Apr 28, 2004

I think that Mavic made a bunch of bad 823s and shipped them to the states to get back at us for calling them pussies and going through with the Iraq war

It must be a design flaw with the rim, thats all i can think of.

dexterq20 · Apr 28, 2004

Well, this thread got me thinking, and I found a couple pictures of the EX 729 rims and the EX 823 rims, and the EX 729 has a much lower profile than the EX 823. I'm not sure if that is what makes a difference in strength, but it's definitely something that caught my attention.

EX 729:

EX 823:

dexterq20 · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by Acadian
the 823 is closer to the 721 tho - not the 729 (aka 321)

You mean as far as the rim's dimensions are concerned?

dexterq20 · Apr 28, 2004

Okey silly dokey-o, I'm an idiot!

dexterq20 · Apr 28, 2004

So how many people on here (other than Acadian) have actually trashed their EX823 rims? Cuz I was thinking of getting a set, but should I just get EX729's instead and use Stan's NoTubes?

Curb Hucker · Apr 28, 2004

mines got more flat spots than a doublewide

Dusty Bottoms · Apr 28, 2004

This is so weird. I've been beating the hell out of d3.1 rims for 2 years, I weigh 200 pounds, land like a 'tard on drops, and havent had a single problem with them.

Could it be problems with a certain batch of rims?

DÃR · Apr 28, 2004

d3.1's are not the exact same thing as 823s, are they? I hadn't heard ANY bitching about the 3.1s, but the 823s obviously, not so much...........

UiUiUiUi · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by DßR
d3.1's are not the exact same thing as 823s, are they? I hadn't heard ANY bitching about the 3.1s, but the 823s obviously, not so much...........

the 3 people i know who had 3.1s at the beginning of last season switched back to 521s pretty fast.

DÃR · Apr 28, 2004

Originally posted by Acadian
the 2 first rims I trashed were D3.1's

ahh, okay well that settles that!

Jeremy R · Apr 28, 2004

I destroyed mine in about 1/4 of the time it takes me to take out a Singletrack. Add to that the price difference, and it still makes me weep.
I wouldn't care, but I do love running tubeless.
Is Stan's in a Singletrack a real big hassle?

Espen · Apr 29, 2004

For those who dont know: The to last digits are inside measures of the rim. (new #)

40g less, thats not true! A D3.1 eyelets included weight 620g and a 321 weights close to 700g

E

Originally posted by math2014
Brian

The 823 rim is 4mm more narrow than the 321, it doesnt have double eyelets (inserts instead), yet it is only 40gr lighter than the D321, which in other words means that they ought to have the same strength relatively to their respective widths. At least that is the case with the 521 vs 321 comparison.

math2014 · Apr 29, 2004

Well

ride-on.com says that D321 weight 670gr...so given 630gr of the EX823 (from weightweenies site) makes us 40gr. That is why i said 40... i dont own any of these rims...

UiUiUiUi · Apr 29, 2004

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Are they now using tubes with the 521's?

two of them use tubes again, the third one uses a ghetto tubeless setup

punkassean · Apr 29, 2004

The last time we had a thread on this topic I stated my opinion, and I still feel the same and since then I have logged a lot more miles/usage on my wheels. Here's my opinion.

D3.1's or EX823's are a great rim for all purpose use on a mid travel trail bike. Especially for guys who like to jump and do mid sized drops etc. I DJ and hit drops on mine just fine(so far). Probably not the best rim for DH or hardcore freeride, but okay for DH race runs. They do seem to be "softer" than the hard ano 321/521's. Which raises a question, has anyone had problems with the durability of silver, non hard ano. 521's? That might answer how much strength is gained from hard anodizing. I really think it does add strength, why would they do it if it didn't? Also I have had XC non HA Mavics that seemed less durable than HA similar versions in the past. Here is my current XC/Freeride wheelset I am running on my damn near exactly 30lb. Kona Bear Dee-Lux:

-EX823 32h
-King ISO Hubs (QR)
-DT Competition 20/1.8 spokes
-DT Alloy 12mm nipples

Total Wheelset Weight=approx. 2150gm.
(including valve stems and nipple buckets, from weight weenies, actual weight)

-Mavic DeeMax UST wheelset
(Same rim but weaker overall due to 4 less spokes per wheel)

Total Wheelset Weight=2425gm.
(From Weight weenies, actual weight)

That is a 275gm. (well over 1/2lb) weight savings and an increase in strength over DeeMax. In fact CrossMax XL's with 24 aluminum spokes and smaller/lighter rims weigh 1850gm. I know my rims are way stronger than that and only 300gm. (2/3lb.) more! I am running Michelin Wildgripper Hot-S 2.5's front and rear at 785gm. ea. I also run a minimal amount of stan's sealant in each tire casing. I lose very little air, pretty much can't get a flat, my rims are virtually bullet proof for anything but super gnarly DH runs, although I do take them down rocky trails often. I have huge tires get tons of traction (28-30psi front, 32-34psi rear) and massive versatility, I have never been happier with an overall wheelset. And that's out of more than a decade of wheelsets. Including 321's, 521's, Tioga DH's, Sun Ryno's/Mammoths/singlewides(bitch to mount tires!), lots of Mavic XC rims(317/517), etc. I am bummed that some people are having a hard time with the rims but I love them and highly recommend them as do a lot of my friends, including two of my friends who have them on Bullits w/Z150's and beat the crap out of them (XC/Freeride) about 5 days a week, no joke! Buy some and see what you think, if you can findthe manywhere

Espen · Apr 29, 2004

It's a sensation if Mavic says 675g and the actual weight is 670g

Does any around here got a pic of a D321 on the scale?

E

Originally posted by math2014
Well

ride-on.com says that D321 weight 670gr...so given 630gr of the EX823 (from weightweenies site) makes us 40gr. That is why i said 40... i dont own any of these rims...

punkassean · Apr 29, 2004

Originally posted by Espen
It's a sensation if Mavic says 675g and the actual weight is 670g

Does any around here got a pic of a D321 on the scale?

E

Weight Weenies lists an actual weight of 672gm. (32h). I trust them, I bet 675 is actually the average between 32/36 hole. Is that good enough for you?

punkassean · Apr 29, 2004

Mavic
D3.1 Disc UST
2003
32H
580 g claimed
571 g observed
?1,55% difference
+53 g for nipple adapters, 5 g for valve = 629 g total

Mavic
D321 Disc
2001
32H
675 g claimed
672 g observed
?0,44% difference
_

Mavic
D521
2002
32H
590 g claimed
582 g observed
?1,36% difference

So the actual difference between a D321 and a EX823 is 48gm. ea. I didn't include the 5gm. valve stem because that would be compared to the tube not the rim IMO. Weight Weenies rules!

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/
_

zedro · Apr 29, 2004

anodising doesnt change the material properties of the aluminum, exept that its thought that hard anodising may decrease fatigue life (but this entails failiure, not bending). Hard anodising simply gives a harder surface treatment (the mechanism behind the fatigue issue).

now when are my damn 823s comming in?.....

Mavic EX 823 & EX 721/D521 rim debate

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