[- seb]

Right, for several years I ran Michelin UST, with stans strips and then later with mavic's tubeless specific rims. They're a bastard to inflate, but once up aside from the occasional tear in the tread part of the tyre I had no problems - never burped any air, EVER. (OK, once, but was in a crash, I'll let it off!)

So I thought I'd give Maxxis a go because everyone raves about the treads, and they're supposedly a lot easier to inflate.

You know what? They are. Can generally inflate first try with minimal pumping, all good.

BUT, they burp air like crazy. I think I've been using them about 3 months, and I've burped enough air out to have to coast down 4-5 times that I can think of, maybe more. Also I've torn at least 2 nearly-new tyres along the edge of the bead. Once in a race run this weekend, which I guess was the straw that's broken the camels back.

Holes in the tread part of a tyre I can kind of live with because it suggests I've been shredding too hard over sharp rocks, but tears in the sidewall from off-kilter landings and cornering doesn't sit well with me.

I've been running 30psi as well. On michelins I always ran about 22-24psi and still didn't burp. I've upped the psi on the maxxis to try to prevent burping, and I have to say I'm really likign running the higher pressures, but that's a different thread.

I'm using EX823 rims. The tyres I've been using are 2.35 high roller USTs. I understand that the 2.5 high roller USTs have thicker sidewalls, so might that help me?

Should I

a) Try 2.5 USTs
b) Try 2.35 2ply non-UST casings with stans to seal
c) Go back to michelin
d) give up on tubeless and run tubes, and rebuild my wheels onto 721s if I can be assed to get the weight about the same.

I'm feeling a bit disillusioned with the whole tubeless thing right now, but I want it to work.

 

[Loozinskin]

Maxxis UST minion 3 years on mavic 7.3's and sun MTX ghetto tubeless with never a single failure.

my vote is on moving up a size.

 

[CBJ]

2.5 UST Minions on 823s all last year not one single burp. Most of the time I do run them with a little stans to give a little extra protection. 28psi rear and 26psi front and I am 165lbs.

 

[Ian Collins]

back to the known quantity....michelins...you just have to run your air pressure a touch higher....it won't kill you

 

[rayhaan]

I would move up to the 2.5's, I run high rollers, wetscreams, swampthings, all UST on 823 rims, with some stans sealant in them, at about 30 psi, I have burped a bit of air out of the high rollers on rooty stuff, but never had a problem with anything else...

 

[-C-]

a) Try 2.5 USTs
b) Try 2.35 2ply non-UST casings with stans to seal
c) Go back to michelin
d) give up on tubeless and run tubes, and rebuild my wheels onto 721s if I can be assed to get the weight about the same.

a) Tried that, same problems.
b) Tried that too, and 2.5 Non UST. Same problems
c) Gave up on that, virtually impossible to buy in the UK for months on end!
d) Did that last week!

I'm glad in a way it wasn't just me having problems, but I have NEVER had so many punctures as I have had in the last 5 or 6 times out on my bike. Fixing a puncture with Stans slopping about everywhere is no fun either.

Last straw was Gethin, a double flat into the rock garden = huge crash + lots of pain.

Never had a flat before running 721's, Maxxis Flyweight tubes, and Dual Ply Maxxis tyres, so have no idea why I had so many UST issues.

The 721 & light tube combo is as light as 823 & tyre with a syringe of sealant too.

 

[- seb]

a) Tried that, same problems.
The 721 & light tube combo is as light as 823 & tyre with a syringe of sealant too.

Agreed, but you still have pinch flat issues (I flat a lot more one way or the other when running tubes than when running tubeless) and increased rolling resistance/decreased grip.

 

[-C-]

True, I think just maybe me & UST doesn't work, hence my switch back.

Rheola this weekend will be a good test - you going?

 

[Zark]

are you using Stans sealant in your setup?

I'd go to 2.5's and run the pressure a tad higher. I've found 33-35 psi to be the trick to prevent burping. I'm so used to running these kind of pressures now it doesn't even feel high.

My setup is different that yours as I use Stans No-tubes and 729's. This setup is more prone to burping than 823's, but w/ 2.5's Minion DHF's it worked great. I'm currently running Hutchinnson Barracuda 2.5's at the same pressure with the same results.

 

[big-ted]

...I've torn at least 2 nearly-new tyres along the edge of the bead.
Holes in the tread part of a tyre I can kind of live with because it suggests I've been shredding too hard over sharp rocks, but tears in the sidewall from off-kilter landings and cornering doesn't sit well with me.

This describes my experiences with Michelins and Hutchinsons. Good to hear you've done the guinea-pigging on the Maxxis for me too!

Kind of serves you right for going with the 2.35s though. I've felt the sidewall on those, and there's no way I'd trust them.

I'm actually having the most success of any tubeless setup I've run with 2-ply, non UST, 2.5 Minions and Stans (though I've run Stans in every setup I've used.) No burping (granted, at 30psi), and, so far, no major flats to report.

 

[FCLinder]

I would say go back to Michelins or start running tubes with the Maxxis tires. Everyone I know that runs Maxxis only uses tubes due to all the problems they have running tubeless.

Good luck man.

 

[S.K.C.]

seb - their are 2 reasons the 2.35 Maxxis UST tires aren't working for you in a DH application:

First: the 2.35" Maxxis UST tires are intended for Freeriding so as a result, these tires are constructed using Maxxis LUST (Light - UST) technology. LUST is constructed with a casing that utilizes very thin strands in the weave of the casing - about 120 TPI I believe (TPI = threads per square inch) This could explain why you have been burping air and tearing sidewalls.

Second: The section height (sidewall height) of a 2.35" Maxxis is about 5mm shorter than on a 2.5" Maxxis UST tire. This means that the rim is 5mm closer to the ground on a 2.35" vs. a 2.5" tire. So, this is one possible reason why you have been pinch-flatting/snake bite/slicing the sidewall along the bead under the rim lip...

The Maxxis 2.5" UST Minion DHF uses a DH casing with larger, thicker theads in the weave which results in a TPI of about 27. That's a HUGE difference when compared to the 120 TPI of a LUST casing tire. Typically the lower the thread count, the bigger and tougher the threads are in the casing which means a tougher tire.

 

[- seb]

Rheola this weekend will be a good test - you going?

I'm entered, but have decided to work the weekend again to help pay for my 2week alps holiday in July - being self employed with no paid holiday takes a while to get your head around!

 

[- seb]

seb - their are 2 reasons the 2.35 Maxxis UST tires aren't working for you in a DH application:

First: the 2.35" Maxxis UST tires are intended for Freeriding so as a result, these tires are constructed using Maxxis LUST (Light - UST) technology. LUST is constructed with a casing that utilizes very thin strands in the weave of the casing - about 120 TPI I believe (TPI = threads per square inch) This could explain why you have been burping air and tearing sidewalls.

Second: The section height (sidewall height) of a 2.35" Maxxis is about 5mm shorter than on a 2.5" Maxxis UST tire. This means that the rim is 5mm closer to the ground on a 2.35" vs. a 2.5" tire. So, this is one possible reason why you have been pinch-flatting/snake bite/slicing the sidewall along the bead under the rim lip...

The Maxxis 2.5" UST Minion DHF uses a DH casing with larger, thicker theads in the weave which results in a TPI of about 27. That's a HUGE difference when compared to the 120 TPI of a LUST casing tire. Typically the lower the thread count, the bigger and tougher the threads are in the casing which means a tougher tire.

FWIW The 2.35" UST tyres are available both in "LUST" and "regular" UST forms over here. I definitely did not buy the LUST ones, though for all I know the 2.35s use the same sidewalls irrespective of the branding on them.

 

[dhkid]

i think all the 2.35s are single ply, the labeling might just be from different years.

i say give 2.5s a go, i haven't really had problems with burping.

but i wont argue with michelin being superior ust tires. once you get them on that is.

 

[TKCastle]

I would say go back to Michelins or start running tubes with the Maxxis tires. Everyone I know that runs Maxxis only uses tubes due to all the problems they have running tubeless.

Good luck man.

Correction: The problems you are having not "they"

Been running maxxis and michy's for years without a single problem, period.

 

[S.K.C.]

FWIW The 2.35" UST tyres are available both in "LUST" and "regular" UST forms over here. I definitely did not buy the LUST ones, though for all I know the 2.35s use the same sidewalls irrespective of the branding on them.

seb - I was wrong about the LUST description. ACTUALLY LUST stands for: Light Ultimate Sidewall Technology.

From Maxxis website:

New for 2006. Maxxis Cross Country and Freeride Tubeless tires, certified to UST standards, now feature Lightweight Ultimate Sidewall Technology (LUST). LUST offers better puncture resistance, improved air retention, better longevity and lower weight than previous tubeless technologies.

What their DH tires look like:

If it's a Freeride UST tire I'm nearly 95% sure it's got a lightweight 120 TPI casing. However, what Maxxis lists on their US website isn't the entire line of what they produce (for example standard 2-ply DH tires in 2.35" sizes). It's possible that they make a 2.35" UST with a DH casing, but whatever you do stay away from LUST.

On my 2.5" Minion DHF UST it says "Silkworm Technology" on the sidewall, but it also has a 2-ply Butyl casing.

I'd say try the 2.5" Minion DHF's or High Rollers. Try running them at between 30 and 35psi - should work out fine.

BTW - how much do you weigh, and is it really rocky where you live? (in England right?)

 

[- seb]

I weigh 175 naked, not sure what that is kitted up. Was rocky this weekend when I tore the bead, but managed to burp air out in a medium-speed "normal" woodland corner the week before.

 

[Supernaut]

Hi. I have ben running maxxis tubeless tires with 823 rims for three seasons, and i have learned the following:

-2.3 HighRollers are complete shiat, and will tear\burp air\self destruct

-2,5 Minion DHFs is the greatest thing since sliced bread and internet pron combined.

I run them at 2bar in the front and 2,25 in the back. Sometimes a bit more depending on the course. Cant remeber what that is in PSI right now, but it should be easy to figure out.

Fred.

 

[davep]

30 and 32.5 PSI respectively....

These tubeless 'problem' threads aways interest me as I have not used a tube on any of my MTBs in five years (or more) and never had a problem that I would or could attribut to tubeless....and I have never owned a UST rim..

I do think that some of this comes down to pressure (for the given rider/conditions/course/speed/bike set-up..something each person needs to figure out).
IMO the current high end DH tires (Maxxis and Mich) derive so much grip from compound, that they do not need, and it is a detriment to run low pressures. The knobs of current sticky tires are able to conform to whatever they roll over, and thus do not require the casing be as soft (low pressure) as some think. Tires like the 3C offer a stiffer 'underknob' also to help the knob bite in and not fold.
To add to that, tubeless tends to result in a more flexable casing (no tube..stiffness,shear) if all else is the same.....so tubeless can get away with (and should definately IMO) running higher pressures yet while having the same 'grip'. The higher pressures also give a more solid feel when cornering hard, especiall when weighting/unweighting thtough the corner due to stiffer sidewalls.

I am sure a lot is hit/miss, it just is interesting to hear of problems as I have run just about every combo of mich and maxxis (except maxxis ust spec) tires on my bikes (721, 729, 5.1 w/ 1 ply, 2 ply, hard compound, soft compound, tubeless, non-tubeless, 2.2 - 2.8") and never had a problem that caused me to miss a rid or walk (attributable to the tubeless)..

Some tires have been difficult to seat w/o compressed air, some have leaked slowely (flat in a month hanging in gargage), some have required excess stans to seal up the first time.....but that is the worst of it.....

Only common ground(s) that I can think of are
1 steel beads
2 stans strip/set-up recomendations, and sealant.

 

[Slater]

I tore/ripped/whatevered the bead on a 2.5 ust high roller on its second ride out, so I don't think the thicker casing will do anything for you.

Go back to Michelin. Grip is just as good if not better, and they last 4-5x longer.

 

[snowskilz]

ive been running ust and non ust maxxis tires on 823's for 3 years now, very little issues except for when theres 20lbs of air in there or when the stans dries up. 2.35's work too for me but honestly their sidewalls arent as good and def fip or burp much easier

 

[bullcrew]

Im running 2.5 minion dhf 3c tubeless/stans and no issues aside of blowing a rim out on a stuipid hard landing with a really big rock!

 

[TA..]

What SKC said

But to add some more, how about telling us what bike youre using, bike weight what you weigh etc what were the Michellin tires you were using and what PSI..

I read these posts and at times I see theres a common element with components!

Then I read 2.3s or some other trail component used for DH and the heat goes straight on!

2.35 Maxxis are a trail tire at best,what is quantified as freeride anyway, freeride means many things, if you do real FR or DH with a 2.3 SP tire expect issues, like SKC said its based around different speccs for starters not just weight!

Maxxis tires in general are quite allot narrower than some other brands Michy for one tends to have more volume for a given size, 2.35 is way too narow in Maxxis, unless ya running there 2ply wets, even the 2.5 WS are narrow.


Use the appropiate components for the use, then if ya have problems rant away, if ya gonna go light expect problems thats the cost and risk you take, why people are suprised with this always amazes me then they blame the company, I feel for companies who have to deal with this sort of thing, I'm not in either camp but comon sense tells ya the answer , I sorter wonder at the levels of experience and thought processes here sometimes!

DH is about pushing boundaries, but if ya going to do that expect things to go wrong, its the same racing DH if it goes bad ya knew the risks, don't go blaming others when you or ya bike breaks!

Base the comparisons factually, so we can get the full info, hence why I ask what type of bike, what type of Michy tire youre comparing, these forums have allot of great info to share if the right facts are presented which will only help you be more competitve and save you having to learn the hard way, miss a race result or wreck a wheel or something else or bad experience like this.

Ideally youre better off training losing a few pounds or building strength, saving the dollars on bling and having spare wheelsets with wets or some other compound for conditions, spare rear Ds etc, build smart ride smart thats what Dh is about, its a challenge against the elements, I'm not sure what your courses are like to be even thinking about 2.35s!

I mean you maybe on a 6inch bike who knows, Ive seen big guys on that tire on AM bikes with no problems on the same rim, but I know I'd never use it myself in UST in DH I always run 2ply, Ive always finished my race runs!

I use Minions for dry, Swampthing for wet/Wetsreams really soft and wet!

The Honda team ran UST from the begining and had very few issues supposedly one of the most reliable setups on the WC circuit! Ive been UST from the begining with XC and trail and built up lots of experiences with that, but Im still on the fence with UST for me in DH as I change tires lots and I don't have lots of wheelsets for UST to set and forget, and Im not going to mess with goop for the amount of time I change over, but thats what suits me.

Good luck, Maxxis UST's are a bit lighter than there 2ply counter parts!

 

[dhkid]

skc, the ust dh tires dont have the butyl insert.

 

[- seb]

Well FWIW I recently got my best ever race result running the 2.35 UST highrollers, so I can't knock them too much. When they work they're fantastic, I love the fast rolling and low weight.

TA you asked about my bike and it's weight - I don't think it's very relevant but it's a 2005 GT DHi coming in at just over 35lb.

I think I'll try some 2.5s. Interesting that everyone is recommending I change my tread pattern from high roller to minion too... I'll stick to HR for the time being I think, they seem to be working well for me aside from the obvious issues.

 

[Jonny5]

I have the 2.35 on the rear, I've only been using it for a month but so far its fine. I did cut the tread two micro seconds before this photo

I just got to the bottom of the track, a few spins of the tyre and some more air later, and the stans had sealed the 10mm long cut. Its still up 4 days later.

I have the 2.5 minion on the front. Its a much bigger and thicker tyre. If I have any issues with the 2.35 on the rear one of these will be going on, but so far only the cut? And mine was super tight on the rim too.

 

[FCLinder]

Correction: The problems you are having not "they" Never owned Maxxis only Michelins, thanks

Been running maxxis and michy's for years without a single problem, period.

And "They" is right, meaning the guys I know that run them.

I am in not any way saying Michelins are better than Maxxis, just stating what I have seen.

 

[dhkid]

seb, i dont get why ppl are asking you to change the thread too, to me all the 2.5 ust tires that maxxis make look like they share the same carcass. i have minions, high rollers and wet sreams, all pretty much the same under the thread, size and shape wise.

 

[dhkid]

And "They" is right, meaning the guys I know that run them.

I am in not any way saying Michelins are better than Maxxis, just stating what I have seen.

i'll help you out here.

i do believe that michelin are far superior tubeless tires. stiff casing, good threads, tight bead ect ect.

BUT, i love how maxxis ust tires are so easy to change. but the reason that makes them easy to inflate (soft sidewalls and a kevlar bead) is also their down fall.

as far as any of them giving you an advantage in a race, not really, just as long as you run the right thread for the conditions and enough air not to flat and fold over, its all good.

 

[punkassean]

I've been running tubeless for about 6 years exclusively and have tried a lot of tires on a lot of bikes over all types of terrain. I gathered the most relevant impressions from riding Santa Barbara on a 6" Enduro with all my buddies on big bikes where as a result of trying my hardest to keep up, I really put my tires to the test. Here's what I've found.

Best DH Tire: Maxxis 2.5 DH UST. I've run them on Deemax UST rims and on Easton Havocs with Stan's strips and had no issues at all. The Minion DHF are my favorite tread all-around for both front and rear. High Rollers are also good but mostly as a rear tire and not so much up front. I tried all the DH Michelins and had the same problem with each. I'd get punctures in the casing, both snakebites from the rim and slashes between tread blocks from rocks. The holes were too big for Stan's to seal most of the time. I tried patching the casing from the inside with pretty good luck but it would just happen again on the next ride. I finally gave up on them which was a bummer because they had some great treads, casing sizes and compounds. This was ~4 years ago and I don't know if they've changed the design since then or not.

Best All-Mtn/XC Tire: Hutchinson Barracuda/Piranha 2.3. I raced these tires at Downieville at 24psi and had ZERO issues whereas everyone else flatted at least once if not more. I've also run Maxxis 2.35 and 2.1 LUST High Rollers with pretty good luck but when the trail gets really rocky and the riding is not done gingerly I would have the same issue as the Michelins with slicing the casings. I bet the Hutchinson DH tires are really good too but I have no experience. Zark speaks highly of them and if they're holding up on the trails he rides, the same SB trails I used to ride, then I'd say they're most likely very good.

DH tires are heavy, there's really no way around it. Maybe some courses will let you get away with a light tire (Sea Otter or Firestone for example) but in general the downsides outweigh the positives. Man up and run some real tires or stop complaining.

 

[mtg]

I run Maxxis UST 2.5 tires on Mavic 823 rims tubeless, and quite often with no sealant. It's been astoundingly reliable- I've even crushed an 823 rim on a huge case and the tire didn't lose any pressure (and it didn't have sealant).

One point I haven't seen mentioned yet is that you really have to make sure the tire bead is seated all the way. This may seem fairly elementary, but it's kind of a pain with Maxxis UST tires to get that bead seated properly, but if it's not seated right, it could definitely cause burping.

My method for bead seating is to spray the whole bead with soapy water and then blast it with the air compressor.