[JohnE]

Hate to agree with a Republican, but...

Rep. Allen West (R-FL) on the Marines Incident: "I have sat back and assessed the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers, Shugart and Gordon, had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. "Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation... of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and......... hung from a bridge in Fallujah. All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. "Does anyone remember the two soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq? "The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps. It should be videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter. "As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell." As General George Patton noted in 1944, "I hope the Lord has mercy on our enemies, because I won't.

 

[Silver]

Allen West is an admitted war criminal who can go fvck himself.

 

[kidwoo]

Hate to agree with a Republican who was kicked out of the military for blowing out the eardrums of an innocent bystander........

At least be thorough.

 

[X3pilot]

While I understand the emotions of Mr. West, by comparing these incidents to terrorist and fundamentalist behaviors that we are supposedly fighting against, doesn't that help the argument that by doing what they did, it makes us appear no better than our enemies?

 

[Silver]

While I understand the emotions of Mr. West, by comparing these incidents to terrorist and fundamentalist behaviors that we are supposedly fighting against, doesn't that help the argument that by doing what they did, it makes us appear no better than our enemies?

No. Americans are inherently better at everything than everyone. Didn't you get the memo?

Your sentence is to watch NBC's Olympic coverage this summer for 24 hours straight. That'll fix ya...

 

[jonKranked]

No. Americans are inherently better at everything than everyone. Didn't you get the memo?

Your sentence is to watch NBC's Olympic coverage this summer for 24 hours straight. That'll fix ya...

so if we're no better than them, does this mean everyone in new mexico arizona and texas need to go back to living in caves?

 

[gonefirefightin]

if they wanted to play fireman they would have set them on fire and threw them out of a 107 story building

 

[jonKranked]

if they wanted to play fireman they would have set them on fire and threw them out of a 107 story building

oh come on, we both know that there's no buildings that tall in afghanistan.

 

[dante]

Hate to agree with a Republican, but...

Rep. Allen West (R-FL) on the Marines Incident: "I have sat back and assessed the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers, Shugart and Gordon, had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. "Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation... of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and......... hung from a bridge in Fallujah. All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. "Does anyone remember the two soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq? "The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps. It should be videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter. "As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell." As General George Patton noted in 1944, "I hope the Lord has mercy on our enemies, because I won't.

And what would have happened if we'd caught the people responsible for either the Somali or Blackwater killings/mutilations? Oh that's right, we would have thrown the book at them for crimes against humanity. Apparently it's only eeeeeeevil when other people do it, not us. Kinda like how the US charged Japanese officers with torture for waterboarding our servicemen in WWII, and yet 50 years later it's perfectly legal "enhanced interrogation".

 

[syadasti]

Think anyone would get non-judicial punishment for urinating on military grave or monument if they were caught and nobody would care? If so, then someone go right ahead and put it up on youtube, its no big deal. What part of military law and the Geneva convention count if you don't think this violation matters?

 

[JohnE]

Silver, charming as always...yet you still live in the US, all its evils and immorality clashing daily with your perfection

While I posted that, I should have attached my opinion. Lets not forget that this is war, whats more it is close combat, one of mankinds worst inventions. They were victorious over a dangerous and motivated foe, resulting in an outpouring (No pun intended...) of emotions very few of us have ever experienced. Was it smart? No. Would the men they killed have honored the Marine corpses had the outcome been different? Prolly not. (Does that make it right? Again no...). Has **** like this been going on throughout the history of warfare? Yes. Were they under unimaginable stress? Yep. Does Rep Wests military history have anything to do with making his opinion any more valid or non valid? Nope.

A definitely poor decision compounded by modern technology and easy access to international media.

 

[JohnE]

At least be thorough.

West was not "kicked out"...he retired with full benefits with over 2000 letters of support. Had I been faced with a similiar situation, I cannot say I would have reacted differently. When the llives of your men are at stake, a good commander will do anything to avoid having to write letters home about how Johnny died valiantly and well for his country. West even fell on his own sword, "At the time I had to base my decision on the intelligence I received. It's possible that I was wrong..." not something you hear every day. Again, I am a registered Democrat, have never voted GoP...

 

[JohnE]

On the other hand, he seems to have quite a bit of douchnozzle-osity...

"West spoke at the Conservative Political Action Conference on February 20, 2010 and was endorsed by former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin...West said he supported the Tea Party movement and dismissed the notion that the movement was motivated by racism as a creation of liberal critics and the news media...West has been described as a "tea party star"...became a member of the congressional Tea Party Caucus...Wes's opponents accused him of being the only black member of a controversial motorcycle gang with ties to drug trafficking and prostitution.

Gotta love the Wikipedia...

 

[JohnE]

On the other hand, he seems to have quite a bit of douchnozzle-osity...

"West spoke at the Conservative Political Action Conference on February 20, 2010 and was endorsed by former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin...West said he supported the Tea Party movement and dismissed the notion that the movement was motivated by racism as a creation of liberal critics and the news media...West has been described as a "tea party star"...became a member of the congressional Tea Party Caucus...Wes's opponents accused him of being the only black member of a controversial motorcycle gang with ties to drug trafficking and prostitution.

Gotta love the Wikipedia...

 

[kidwoo]

West was not "kicked out"...

He didn't leave voluntarily and was taken off duty, what the fvck else you supposed to call it.

Is your diarrhea an honorable discharge too?

 

[JohnE]

He was given an Article 15, a non judicial punishment, fined $5k and allowed to retire with full benefits...that is not being kicked out.

Lets keep this civil, willya? I am the wrong guy to get ugly with, we are on the same side here...

 

[jonKranked]

He was given an Article 15, a non judicial punishment, fined $5k and allowed to retire with full benefits...that is not being kicked out.

IE "forced retirement"; given the boot without actually being given the boot. Its a way of getting rid of someone while allowing them to save face.

 

[jimmydean]

oh come on, we both know that there's no buildings that tall in afghanistan.

At least not anymore.

 

[Silver]

Silver, charming as always...yet you still live in the US, all its evils and immorality clashing daily with your perfection

Does Rep Wests military history have anything to do with making his opinion any more valid or non valid? Nope.

We've been over the first part many times, remember?

As for West's military history, that's like saying that Sammy Gravano's past work history has no impact on his validity as a character witness. Most people would laugh at that idea. Floridians elect him to office instead...

If you were accused of fiddling with kids sexually, would you want Bernard Law to step up and defend you?

 

[jonKranked]

At least not anymore.

nah, they never were able to build anything that tall. the goats started getting scared on the scaffolding aroudn 17 floors.

 

[JohnE]

IE "forced retirement"; given the boot without actually being given the boot. Its a way of getting rid of someone while allowing them to save face.

In a way...but not quite. An A15 is a Commanders non judicial punishment...the commander, in consult with the JAG and based on legal precedent, proposes a punishment. Say a $5k fine and a reprimand. The accused, in consult with the JAG, may accept the punishment, appeal/propose a lesser punishment, or request trial by courts martial. It is not neccesarily a career ender. In the old days, SRNCOs didnt consider you one of them unless you had 1 or more A15s in your past, and many distinguished military persons have them in their past. It is intended as a wake up call, or may be the first step on the way out the door...it was his first step towrds retirement, as he probably got his promotion packet shoved to the bottom of the stack as a result of the A15.
Either way, he is a douche Tea Bagger...I just like that he has stood up for our guys...they did a dumb thing. He did a dumb thing. Few of us know what they have been through...and until you walk a mile in another mans shoes yaddayaddayadda...

And yeah Silver, I know. Just had to poke you a bit.

 

[ohio]

Not really sure why this thread is still going.

1) Prosecute them for their violations of specific rules within our UMCJ
2) If found guilty, punish them according them to our rules and regulations
3) Make the process as public as possible to make it clear to the world that are a nation of laws and we don't tolerate this kind of behavior from our own.

Call it a day.

 

[jonKranked]

Not really sure why this thread is still going.

Because some people seem to think that fighting people that behave inhumanely and savagely makes it OK for us to behave that way too.

 

[Silver]

Not really sure why this thread is still going.

1) Prosecute them for their violations of specific rules within our UMCJ
2) If found guilty, punish them according them to our rules and regulations
3) Make the process as public as possible to make it clear to the world that are a nation of laws and we don't tolerate this kind of behavior from our own.

Call it a day.

We're not a nation of laws, and we do tolerate much worse than this from our own.

The architects of the Iraq war aren't in residence in The Hague...

 

[Pesqueeb]

And yeah Silver, I know. Just had to poke you a bit.

Whoa there pal, DADT.

 

[sanjuro]

Hate to agree with a Republican, but...

Rep. Allen West (R-FL) on the Marines Incident: "I have sat back and assessed the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers, Shugart and Gordon, had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. "Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation... of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and......... hung from a bridge in Fallujah. All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. "Does anyone remember the two soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq? "The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps. It should be videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter. "As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell." As General George Patton noted in 1944, "I hope the Lord has mercy on our enemies, because I won't.

One thing to consider about the "self-righteous indignation" is the hypocrisy and self-aggrandizement of conservative pundits who use sad and disgraceful incidents like Mogadishu to make their points, which is to increase their popularity and paychecks.

Take the entire Fox News evening lineup, for example, which I believe has zero military experience.

My other complaint about this issue is the political power involved.

These Marines are small-frys. They will be assigned military counsel and receive I'm sure is an appropriate punishment.

When larger travesties occur, like the handling of the friendly-fire Pat Tillman death, there was a huge cover-up starting from the White House down to Tillman's Ranger Battalion told not to speak about this to even Tillman's brother, who was also a Ranger.

 

[JohnE]

Not really sure why this thread is still going.

1) Prosecute them for their violations of specific rules within our UMCJ
2) If found guilty, punish them according them to our rules and regulations
3) Make the process as public as possible to make it clear to the world that are a nation of laws and we don't tolerate this kind of behavior from our own.

Call it a day.

Agreed.

 

[ohio]

We're not a nation of laws, and we do tolerate much worse than this from our own.

The architects of the Iraq war aren't in residence in The Hague...

I don't disagree, but that's a separate thread.

Extrapolating the crimes of Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz and this handful of marines to the entire armed forces let alone the entire nation is logically ridiculous, and undermines the case against any of those folks as individuals by spreading the blame to a poisoned society. "It's not their fault; it's America's fault."

 

[Silver]

I don't disagree, but that's a separate thread.

Extrapolating the crimes of Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz and this handful of marines to the entire armed forces let alone the entire nation is logically ridiculous, and undermines the case against any of those folks as individuals by spreading the blame to a poisoned society. "It's not their fault; it's America's fault."

Oh no, I'm not letting the individuals off the hook. At the same time, the practice of punishing the low level guys while letting the high rank assholes skate is getting really annoying. The whole Tillman debacle mentioned above? That was Stanley "Temporary American Jesus" McChrystal and his merry band of Bud Light Lime drinking real American heroes, wasn't it?

The whole culture of dehumanizing anyone who isn't American was drilled into those Marines from the moment they turned on a television, most likely. Pretending that isn't part of the problem is a big part of the problem.

 

[X3pilot]

Not that this will mean much in this forum, but those Marines will also have to answer to their fellow Marines for their actions and what it has brought to the Corps. Our storied and well typed out opines will not mean near as much. There are those here who will understand what I mean and those that will not.

 

[MikeD]

The accused, in consult with the JAG, may accept the punishment, appeal/propose a lesser punishment, or request trial by courts martial.

Hmm. I don't ever recall a Marine being able to refuse NJP after having a punishment imposed. Take it or leave it up front. (Which is why requesting court-martial becomes a great way to call a commander's bluff...)

 

[kidwoo]

He was given an Article 15, a non judicial punishment, fined $5k and allowed to retire with full benefits...that is not being kicked out.

Lets keep this civil, willya? I am the wrong guy to get ugly with, we are on the same side here...

Aw come on.

That was funny

 

[JohnE]

Hmm. I don't ever recall a Marine being able to refuse NJP after having a punishment imposed. Take it or leave it up front. (Which is why requesting court-martial becomes a great way to call a commander's bluff...)

You are corect, I may have mis-led...but the intent is always that the accused will meet with the JAG ASAP after being advised of his rights, and any qualified JAG will prep the battlespace so the accused may anticipate the Ccs actions. When the accused hits the carpet, he or she should already know what is going to happen (Based on precedence...) and what his response will be, based on the JAG consult...

 

[JohnE]

The whole culture of dehumanizing anyone who isn't American was drilled into those Marines from the moment they turned on a television, most likely. Pretending that isn't part of the problem is a big part of the problem.

Oh come on...every culture that goes to war dehumanizes the opposing force. How else do you get relatively sane young men to willingly kill other relatively sane young men? For King and Country! Kill the (Insert group name here...) for they are less than human! If those pushing wars did not find ways to demonize others there would be no war...plug other groups names into your statement, it is equally true.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Not that this will mean much in this forum, but those Marines will also have to answer to their fellow Marines for their actions and what it has brought to the Corps.

To Marines that take being a Marine and the Corps seriously, I can imagine those Marines getting..........what was it called from a Few Good Men??? Oh yeah a Code Red......or whatever the term is these days. I've spent alot of time with Marines (active and retired) who take being a Marine seriously, in their minds there is no room in the Corps to those who bring dishonor on it.

 

[MikeD]

I know a lot of Marines are going to be pissed (groan) because these idiots were stupid beyond belief to put this **** on YouTube. A lot fewer are going to be angry that these guys pissed on some corpses.

 

[IH8Rice]

I know a lot of Marines are going to be pissed (groan) because these idiots were stupid beyond belief to put this **** on YouTube. A lot fewer are going to be angry that these guys pissed on some corpses.

that the consensus i got from my friends who were Marines

 

[MikeD]

Aras, pole yolick.

 

[JohnE]

I remember that photo from HS history class...

 

[JohnE]

...there is no room in the Corps to those who bring dishonor on it.

I would wonder who is percieved as bringing the dishonor on the Corps. The pissers for pissing, videoing and U-tubing it (Being dumb...), or an oversensitive public that has lost sight of the true nature of warfare?