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McCain's platform of "slashing government spending" seems...

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by BurlyShirley, Oct 8, 2008.

  1. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    ...off to a rocky start. I don't have some link to prove this, nor have I heard the pundits pick up on this yet, but hasn't McCain been going on and on and on about slashing spending?
    Yet, within the last two weeks, I've heard him back a $700billion "rescue plan" to bail out wallstreet, and then last night, I heard him back a $300billion "bad mortgage buyout" plan to rescue people who took out loans they couldn't afford.
    Also, I heard him go on about a $5000 healthcare rebate that he's going to "handout" and also doubling (from $3500 to $7000) child exemptions on people's taxes.
    Oh, and he's going to make the Bush tax cuts permanent too.

    So at a minimum, before even taking office, he's gotten behind $1 Trillion plus in new spending, all while running on the platform of cutting. And he's cutting taxes too... any idea how he plans to pay for this? Just doesn't add up me.... nor is it consistent with his record of "deregulation" or the republican party's boner for "personal responsibility". All I've been hearing from conservatives leading up to this election is how Obama is a "socialist," and how that's bad for America...but yet when McCain suggests basically socializing the entire mortgage industry, suddenly it's okay with everyone.

    ?
     
    #1 -   Oct 8, 2008

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  2. Defenestrated

    Defenestrated Turbo Monkey

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    Taxes have never been cut during war time iirc.

    All lies and false promises.

    I hope that some of Obama's promises are realized, specifically universal health care and energy reform...
     
    #2 -   Oct 8, 2008
  3. Toshi

    Toshi Harbinger of Doom

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    neocons don't feel like they need to stick to the "truth" or do "arithmetic" on their budgets. claiming oneself to be a maverick and against govt waste is apparently enough, while obama's revenue-neutral plans are somehow horribly socialist.
     
    #3 -   Oct 8, 2008
  4. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Maybe he's going to ask his dad for it.
     
    #4 -   Oct 8, 2008
  5. Defenestrated

    Defenestrated Turbo Monkey

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    as we all know, republicans have always been the best at balancing the budget...oh wait...

     
    #5 -   Oct 8, 2008
  6. JohnE

    JohnE filthy rascist

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    McCain will simply print more money. Easy fix, problem solved.
     
    #6 -   Oct 8, 2008
  7. X3pilot

    X3pilot Texans fan - LOL

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    McCain: Buy back mortages and refinace to current home values? F that! I bought a house in the midst of the boom and only bought what I could afford. There shouldn't be "do overs" to compensate for people that got in over their head. With risk comes rewards, whether it be good or bad.

    McCain: Double the child tax credit? It's a vagina, not a clown car. You had them, they are your responsibility. Close ALL tax loopholes to help correct the revenue income deficit.

    If McCain is such a reformer, why does he admit in the same breath that Warshington is broke? Tells me you failed as a great reformer.


    http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3070999&postcount=60
     
    #7 -   Oct 8, 2008
  8. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    I actually don't get why we didn't do that to begin with. Why bailout the banks directly? We should have bought into foreclosing houses in return for a proportionate share of the principle. e.g. owner makes payments up to 38% of income, fed government pays remainder owns that share of the principle. Would only apply to primary residences.

    Would have stabilized the loans (or as many as we need to stabilize) with the barest minimum of investment because the owner still has to bear as much burden as they can, but they also don't get all of the upside if/when the market recovers and house sells. If the loans were stabilized, shouldn't that prop the credit market and derivatives behind it?

    I put up a post to similar effect months ago based on a Biz Prof's talk... not like this is a novel idea.
     
    #8 -   Oct 8, 2008
  9. Samirol

    Samirol Turbo Monkey

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    Well, because the main threat is that the credit markets are absolutely frozen right now, and getting trying to unfreeze it by stabilizing mortgages won't work from what I understand.
     
    #9 -   Oct 8, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2008
  10. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    Well Im not in disagreement with McCain's new plan... only pointing out its inconsistency with regard to what he constantly says. But yeah, if you ask me, all things being equal, if Id rather bail out the rich scumbags or the poor idiots, I guess I'll go for the poor.
    Outside of that though, I'll readily admit that I don't understand which would be the smarter move economically.
     
  11. X3pilot

    X3pilot Texans fan - LOL

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    That plan would be more palatable. But that 38% needs to be from pre- adjusted income.
     
  12. stevew

    stevew unique white person

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    Neither party will have the money to spend on sh*t for the next four years.

    As far as what either side wants to do as far as spending...don't believe it.
     
  13. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    dont the rich scumbags employ the majority of the poor idiots?

    just askin.. cuz i'm thinkin funding those who make the jobs and pay teh taxez might yield a better roi..
     
  14. Defenestrated

    Defenestrated Turbo Monkey

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    Trickle down/supply-side economics is the greatest scam ever conceived aside from maybe Scientology.

    Demand-side economics is much fairer in that it works to empower the masses with disposable wealth (which as tax dollars is rightfully theirs anyway) instead of merely distributing it to the most wealthy individuals in the country.
     
  15. Transcend

    Transcend My Nuts Are Flat

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    Trickle down economics DOES NOT WORK.
     
  16. Defenestrated

    Defenestrated Turbo Monkey

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    IIRC trickle down economics wasn't even invented by an economist.
     
  17. X3pilot

    X3pilot Texans fan - LOL

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    trickle down economics is an upside down pyramid scheme to my pea brain.
     
  18. 3D.

    3D. Monkey

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    some people need to bear in mind that Obama was quick to sign the ill conceived bail-out as well... really quick that is.

    With his talks of transforming our military into the ultimate modern machine, coupled with ideas of adding 100,000 troops and revitalizing the war in Afghanistan, he’s going to blow through counterfeit money as fast as the bills can hit his desk for signature.

    By the end of their second terms, Obama or McCain will drive this country into a newly adopted currency.
     
  19. Defenestrated

    Defenestrated Turbo Monkey

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    I really can't tell if Obama is truely warmongering over Afghanistan or... if he is trying to act tough to sway pro-military independents (which would make sense considering the Republicans have basically claimed ownership of the Iraq issue).

    I hope his zeal for Afghanistan is just a front really...
     
  20. DaveW

    DaveW Space Monkey

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    I honestly don't believe whom ever gets in will have a second term.
    The whole term is going to be spent fixing the bush admins f*ck up's...... He won't have time to indulge in his own pet fiscal fantasy's, and by the time the first term is up the public will be tired of it.

    Exit stage left Mr President sir. :huh:
     
  21. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    I have a theory about government spending: by raising military spending, it allows a conservative government to cut social programs because the cash is not there.
     
  22. Samirol

    Samirol Turbo Monkey

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    It also prevents new social programs from being implemented, because we don't have the money
     
  23. Defenestrated

    Defenestrated Turbo Monkey

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    Basically yeah.

    The George Orwell quote in my sig + this one by Ike

    Every time I read that one I think of how far the Republican party has fallen...
     
    #23 -   Oct 9, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2008
  24. dante

    dante Unabomber

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    It's called "Starve the Beast", and has been a neo-con argument for years now. Cut taxes first so the government doesn't have money, then there's no money to spend on wasteful projects.

    At first glance, it looked good... However McCain changed it overnight so that it pretty much screws the ordinary taxpayer. So John and Mary bought that $500,000 house in CA, took out an additional $300,000 through HELOCs, and are now stuck with $800,000 in debt on a house that's only worth $400k. Guess what, the US Gov't buys the loan for 800 thousand dollars from the bank, writes off $400k (eh, just add it to the debt, no one will care), and John and Mary get to live in their house and just have a $400k mortgage. So the bank that made this loan gets bailed out for making a terrible decision, the homeowners get bailed out for making a terrible decision, and we get screwed.

    I'm all for restructuring mortgages, and offering low fixed-rate, 40y mortgages to help people stay in their homes. For someone with a $500,000 loan, think about the following:

    30 year at 10% (balloon mortgage, or ARM) - $4387 / month
    40 year at 4% - $2089 / month

    All along we were told that the problem was these evil mortgages, the option ARMs and balloon mortgages where people's rates skyrocketed were the problem. Now it seems like the real problem is just that people took out mortgages they weren't willing to pay, and had no equity in their house to ride out any collapse of the market... :disgust1:
     
  25. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    This forum often greets the above statements with an outcry that "trickle-down doesn't work!" and cites history as proof. While they are correct, it doesn't get us anywhere because many folks, you included, *want* to believe in the mechanism, as it seems to reward folks who have "earned it."

    Let me explain the mechanism itself rather than just saying "you are wrong."

    The rich will ALWAYS employ the poor and middle class, because that is how the rich make money. Employment is not a handout or charity; the rich are not doing the middle class a favor by employing them, nor are the middle class doing the rich a favor by donating their labor; the rich are leveraging middle call labor into mutual profit for both parties. If you are wealthy and you are paying more taxes, the way to increase your revenues is to employ more, not less. If you can't figure out how to do it, someone else will. Obviously all within reason. You can't raise taxes infinitely (communism) or lower them infinitely (anarchy) but certainly within a range.

    Additionally, money to the middle and lower classes a greater stimulus to the economy vs money to the wealthy because poor and middle class are much more likely to keep that money in circulation (and I'll explain in a minute why that is a good thing). You may recall that one of the criticisms of the stimulus check was that many people would "just use it to pay down debt." Paying down debt is another way of saying, "keep it in the financial markets rather than use it to consume." We (both sides of the aisle) want people to consume (not beyond their means obviously...). So point 1: Poor and middle class spend much more of their income directly on goods and services. THAT provides revenues and jobs which is a more direct and organic way for companies to secure capital for reinvestment than borrowing against a stock value. Why is spending a more powerful stimulant than investing? Ask anyone in a startup whether they would rather have more revenues or a higher valuation of an equal amount. There's a reason that stock valuations are typically 3X revenues or higher for a healthy company - some money spent by the middle class as revenue is leveraged into 3X that amount of money in a companies valuation. The challenge is that as an individual investor, it's not like you can buy a $300 camera and get $900 back, but as a society every $300 camera means $900 in value to Best Buy's valuation. So Point 2: it is a much better investment as a nation to pursue efforts that drive consumer spending directly.

    Again, there is a balance and a range that this works within but trickle UP is actually the way the economy works by cycling money directly through goods and services which levers higher revenues into higher valuations, while trickle down stagnates us by giving only a 1:1 return on investment and reducing the cash available for spending. Obviously, we still need the financial markets and credit, but the middle class is the engine of the economy and I hope the above explains the mechanisms at work.

    edit: cleaned up.
     
    #25 -   Oct 9, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2008
  26. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    awesome, thx!

    :thumb: