[Toshi]

ok, i caved in and installed. no encryption for me without going through gpgtools. boohoo.

on the other hand the install went smoothly since i disabled Unsanity's APE beforehand. that would have been unpleasant...

first impressions:

- Stacks isn't that useful, i agree with Silver
- Spaces is AWESOME. i now have 1920x1200 of goodness just for Safari (+ Sys Prefs + the Finder + modal dialogs); another for Mail and IM; a third for iTunes; a fourth for iCal. i dig greatly.
- signal strength is better on my wireless network somehow?
- Time Machine will be a nice adjunct to my scheduled Backup.app backups to offsite storage

 

[Transcend]

- Stacks isn't that useful, i agree with Silver
- Spaces is AWESOME. i now have 1920x1200 of goodness just for Safari (+ Sys Prefs + the Finder + modal dialogs); another for Mail and IM; a third for iTunes; a fourth for iCal. i dig greatly.
- signal strength is better on my wireless network somehow?
- Time Machine will be a nice adjunct to my scheduled Backup.app backups to offsite storage

I agree on everything but stacks, i like them for opening my sub folders in my docs folder, but that is about it. Not as useful as they could be, that's for sure.

Spaces does rule, I have been using a 3rd party app in Tiger to get basically the same thing, super handy when i am working on my laptop, and still useful on my desktop.

I ditched quicksilver, spotlight is much faster now and actually a viable application launcher which is all I really use QS for anyways.

I can't stand the translucent menu bar either, I am going to run the command line to make it opaque (it happens automagically on low end systems apparently).

 

[Silver]

I'm just starting to figure out spaces. It was a little confusing with 2 monitors at first. I had to remember that each 2 section space is just one.

That useless mouse squeeze is perfect for bringing up spaces. Beats the hell out of dashboard.

 

[Transcend]

I have always used my mouse squeeze for expose. Works very well.

 

[Toshi]

mouse squeeze? Bah. Just use a real mouse

 

[SK6]

I think SAAB says it all.....

It says a lot, thats for sure!

 

[Silver]

I have always used my mouse squeeze for expose. Works very well.

I prefer pushing the scroll wheel down for that. I'm starting to think that using spaces may render expose less useful than it was before though.

 

[Silver]

Cool...you can also drag windows from one space to another empty one, and the display automatically changes.

 

[Transcend]

I prefer pushing the scroll wheel down for that. I'm starting to think that using spaces may render expose less useful than it was before though.

My mouse wheel click brings up the dashboard, heh.

I am using expose AND spaces now. My god, I like having a lot of windows open.

 

[SkaredShtles]

My mouse wheel click brings up the dashboard, heh.

I am using expose AND spaces now. My god, I like having a lot of windows open.

What is this "Spaces" thing? Is it a virtual desktop utility?

 

[Transcend]

SS, Exactly. There has been ported 3rd party stuff from BSD forever, but this is apple's own implementation of it. It is really nice, fast and gets the job done.

 

[Toshi]

What is this "Spaces" thing? Is it a virtual desktop utility?

yes, but it's very well done. good keyboard shortcuts, easy manipulation of windows when moving between "spaces", straightforward ways to pin particular apps to open in a designated space, and good integration with the Dock: IM is open in the rightmost space, and when i click on its dock icon indicating a new message i'm whisked over there.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/spaces.html

 

[SkaredShtles]

SS, Exactly. There has been ported 3rd party stuff from BSD forever, but this is apple's own implementation of it. It is really nice, fast and gets the job done.

Ah... nice. That was one thing I really missed about moving from Linux to Winders - Gnome had an *awesome* virtual desktop. Hell - I used to have 8 virtuals all with at least 4 application windows running in them.

 

[Transcend]

Ah... nice. That was one thing I really missed about moving from Linux to Winders - Gnome had an *awesome* virtual desktop. Hell - I used to have 8 virtuals all with at least 4 application windows running in them.

Leopard is limited to 16 "spaces" I think. I have a ton running and it's making me rebuild my workflow, in a good way. Mail and IM in one window, lightroom fullscreen in another, photoshop in yet another and finally my browser and FTP client in a 4rth.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Leopard is limited to 16 "spaces" I think. I have a ton running and it's making me rebuild my workflow, in a good way. Mail and IM in one window, lightroom fullscreen in another, photoshop in yet another and finally my browser and FTP client in a 4rth.

WTF? Only 16? A travesty, I tell you... pure travesty.

 

[Silver]

WTF? Only 16? A travesty, I tell you... pure travesty.

Yeah, unless you're running two monitors. I'm using my laptop as an second monitor when I'm at home, so I have 8 effective screens from 4 spaces.

 

[Transcend]

Yeah, unless you're running two monitors. I'm using my laptop as an second monitor when I'm at home, so I have 8 effective screens from 4 spaces.

How are you using the laptop as a second monitor? I was under the impression there was no way to do this on Apple hardware. You can have to monitors with the laptop as the primary, but not use the laptop SOLELY as a monitor for a desktop.

Or are you using some software that simply creates a second display via a network connection that allows you to drag your mouse across? I used to use something like this with VNC to run my in house server.

 

[syadasti]

Leopard's highly touted security

-Firewall in a default state of off even if you upgraded from configuration with it enabled
-Questionable functionality of application mode
-Use of older open source software with known bugs

Apple is using security in general and the new firewall in particular to promote Leopard, the latest version of Mac OS X. However, initial functional testing has already uncovered cause for concern.

The most important task for any firewall is to keep out uninvited guests. In particular, this means sealing off local services to prevent access from potentially hostile networks, such as the internet or wireless networks.

But a quick look at the firewall configuration in the Mac OS X Leopard shows that it is unable to do this. By default it is set to "Allow all incoming connections," i.e. it is deactivated. Worse still, a user who, for security purposes, has previously activated the firewall on his or her Mac will find that, after upgrading to Leopard, the system restarts with the firewall deactivated.

In contrast to, for example, Windows Vista, the Leopard firewall settings fail to distinguish between trusted networks, such as a protected company network, and potentially dangerous wireless networks in airports or even direct internet connections. Leopard initially takes the magnanimous position of trusting all networks equally.

...

The Mac OS X Leopard firewall failed every test. It is not activated by default and, even when activated, it does not behave as expected. Network connections to non-authorised services can still be established and even under the most restrictive setting, "Block all incoming connections," it allows access to system services from the internet. Although the problems and peculiarities described here are not security vulnerabilities in the sense that they can be exploited to break into a Mac, Apple would be well advised to sort them out pronto.

Apple is showing here a casual attitude with regard to security questions which strongly recalls that of Microsoft four years ago. Back then Microsoft was supplying Windows XP with a firewall, which was, however, deactivated by default and was sometimes again deactivated when updates were installed. It was also the case that system services representing potential access points for malware were accessible via the internet interface by default. Despite years of warnings from security experts, the predominant attitude was that security must not get in the way of the great new networking functions.

Then along came worms such as Lovsan/Blaster and Sasser, which rapidly infected millions of Windows computers via security vulnerabilities in system services, causing millions worth of damage. Even today, an unpatched Windows system with no active firewall will be infected within a matter of minutes. However, Microsoft has since learnt its lesson -- a serviceable firewall, activated by default, has been included since Service Pack 2. With the standard configuration, no services are accessible from the internet on a Windows system.

 

[binary visions]

Gee, 6 posts in this thread by syadasti so far, and all of them the same old Mac-bashing rhetoric. Don't pay for your upgrades, don't upgrade to new releases, look at these bugs, look at this problem...

I'm shocked and astonished

Get a hobby.

 

[syadasti]

Gee, 6 posts in this thread by syadasti so far, and all of them the same old Mac-bashing rhetoric. Don't pay for your upgrades, don't upgrade to new releases, look at these bugs, look at this problem...

I'm shocked and astonished

Get a hobby.

Its the reality of any first release from any company. Get real, things are not all roses

I support Macs and even personally own one and other Apple products (starting 1984) do you?

I beta tested Vista too - I didn't buy it on release and I don't run it either. I have an MSDN subscription from work so I can run it for free. Almost no one needs to run out and buy the first release software the moment it comes out.

I am not a cheerleader/fanboy, sue me.

 

[binary visions]

Sometimes I wonder what planet you live on.

Here's a clue: I wasn't talking about or denying the existence of flaws in a program.

 

[syadasti]

Nice edit. Sorry you don't like my cynical comments but its no different than people putting down other biking or computer products in other threads.

Apple Co-founder Woz isn't that impressed with this [or other] evolutionary OS releases:

LAPTOP: You were recently quoted as saying that a lot of the intuitiveness had gone away from Apple's programs. Do you think Leopard might change that?
SW: Early on with the first Apples, we had these dreams that the computer would let you know what you wanted to do. The idea was that little icons or words would suggest what you wanted to do, but now I have to find my way around to odd little icons that aren't positioned in the prominent places. When conducting a common task, I have to go searching around in folders or the bottom of the screen. I don't think any of it will be solved with Leopard because I don't think there is incentive to. They want to make things easy, and if it seems easy and it can be demonstrated quickly then it's okay. The real dreams of how it will work for someone who knows nothing about the computer have been lost and don't get addressed anymore.

L: Do you think Leopard will provide a boost?
SW: I don't think any operating system, despite all its promises, is what sells a computer nowadays. I think OS changes are just done to keep your loyal people happy. Learning an entirely new operating system is something no one wants to do. You get stuck on a platform, and you don't want to start learning a whole new computer system.

 

[Silver]

How are you using the laptop as a second monitor? I was under the impression there was no way to do this on Apple hardware. You can have to monitors with the laptop as the primary, but not use the laptop SOLELY as a monitor for a desktop.

Or are you using some software that simply creates a second display via a network connection that allows you to drag your mouse across? I used to use something like this with VNC to run my in house server.

I'm not running a tower anymore. The Macbook pro sits on my desk off to the left, and I have my big lcd plugged into it. That's it. I do have the dock moved off to the right, so that it stays on the 24 inch panel all the time. I use the laptop to park mail and itunes on.

I guess that since you can't have the dock on both screens it's not a true second monitor. It that what you meant?

 

[Silver]

Apple Co-founder Woz isn't that impressed with this [or other] evolutionary OS releases:

Well, I'm a sample size of one, but I went ahead and did exactly that Wozniak said people don't do. I learned a new OS. It took less than a day to feel comfortable. Huge learning curve.

Have you ever seen a porno where the guy slaps his dick on the face of the girl? I always figured that most of the girls don't like that, but that they put up with it because it's part of the job. It's a nice metaphor for Vista. A big dick slapping you in the face over and over and over again, but you put up with it because you're getting paid.

 

[binary visions]

I guess that since you can't have the dock on both screens it's not a true second monitor. It that what you meant?

Nah, he meant that your laptop screen isn't really a secondary monitor. It's your primary monitor and it's the laptop that you're working off of, with the 24" screen being your secondary monitor.

That's a fairly... colorful analogy. I feel the same way, only about Apple machines.

 

[syadasti]

That's a fairly... colorful analogy. I feel the same way, only about Apple machines.

I think he's just upset because he didn't know how to turn off annoying features in Vista. I wouldn't doubt for most average users the out of the box experience of OSX is better.

There is nothing really wrong with Apple machines other than they are slightly more expensive for a nicer design aesthetic, quality control seems to be often lax, some machines are harder to replace/upgrade simple things like HDD and/or RAM (see Mac Mini [HDD and RAM], MacBook Pro[HDD], or iMac[HDD]), and they don't offer a regular headless desktop model. Who wants notebook components on a desktop machine - they cost more and are slower

The only negative I can see is their integration into large computing environments. They are a whole lot better than they use to be in many corporate integration respects but they still require more effort to administer when dealing in large numbers of machines and plus their server products are way overpriced.

 

[Silver]

I think he's just upset because he didn't know how to turn off annoying features in Vista. I wouldn't doubt for most average users the out of the box experience of OSX is better.

I'm fully capable of doing that. Vista's got bigger problems than that.

Most of the interface, for starters...

 

[Reactor]

Leopard's highly touted security

-Firewall in a default state of off even if you upgraded from configuration with it enabled
-Questionable functionality of application mode
-Use of older open source software with known bugs

I read the same article. I'm going to fire up my pen testing stuff and a sniffer this weekend and have a look at it. It wouldn't surprise me if a last minute code or configuration change resulted in firewall problems. Good thing I have a hardware firewall too.

 

[syadasti]

I read the same article. I'm going to fire up my pen testing stuff and a sniffer this weekend and have a look at it. It wouldn't surprise me if a last minute code or configuration change resulted in firewall problems. Good thing I have a hardware firewall too.

Some of the other points were sensational/questionable but those seem to have merit.

Userbase has grown large enough to start attracting more malware in the wild: http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9808489-37.html

edit: No java 6 either - developers aren't happy

 

[stevew]

Have you ever seen a porno where the guy slaps his dick on the face of the girl? I always figured that most of the girls don't like that, but that they put up with it because it's part of the job. It's a nice metaphor for Vista. A big dick slapping you in the face over and over and over again, but you put up with it because you're getting paid.

BV, we really need to have larger signatures.

 

[Reactor]

Some of the other points were sensational/questionable but those seem to have merit.

Userbase has grown large enough to start attracting more malware in the wild: http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9808489-37.html

edit: No java 6 either - developers aren't happy

So I setup the firewall and turned it on, and probed it with Nessus and NMAP, and a couple of other tools. I was only port I was able find is the printer sharing port, which I did setup to allow. I think Heise is smoking some crack. Nmap couldn't even be sure of the OS and guessed openBSD, which is close.

At this point the leopard firewall is good, Heise's analytical ability .. not so much. Tomorrow I'll try some really obscure stealth scans, just in case.

EDIT: Not only did the firewall work, it also recorded the stealth scan attempts in the logs. Here's one of the nmap runs:

Interesting ports on 192.168.0.126:
Not shown: 65534 closed ports

PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION
631/tcp open ipp CUPS 1.2

MAC Address: 00:16:CB:9F:24:3E (Apple Computer)
No exact OS matches for host (If you know what OS is running on it, see http://i
nsecure.org/nmap/submit/ ).

 

[Reactor]

Well, I'm a sample size of one, but I went ahead and did exactly that Wozniak said people don't do. I learned a new OS. It took less than a day to feel comfortable. Huge learning curve.

I'm another. I'd never touched a mac before last year, Now I use the Mac 95% of the time at home.

Edit: Well I've used VMS and Linux in the past so the command line stuff wasn't too different.

 

[ZoRo]

A certain kook that would make data loss a probable issue...
Be cautious of that serious data loss bug in Leopard

"By Jeff Smykil | Published: November 06, 2007 - 08:55AM CT
Perhaps on par with the infamous file-deleting iTunes update of several years back, some users of Apple's OS X 10.5 are reporting that the updated operating system has a serious flaw. We have read several accounts of serious data loss resulting from interrupted connections when transferring large files over FireWire 800, network shares, and a variety of other storage options. The problem occurs when the connection between the Leopard machine and receiving device's connection is disrupted during the moving of large files. The result is a deletion of files on both the sending and receiving drive.

The issue is reproducible, but does not occur under the same conditions in OS X 10.4 Tiger or when the same files are moved in OS X 10.5 via the terminal. While I am always leery of any connection being disrupted during file transfer, I suppose most modern operating systems have checks in place to prevent data loss from occurring. Making sure a disconnect does not occur between a computer and an external hard drive may be easy enough, but it isn't always as straightforward when working with network shares.

It's unfortunate that something like this was overlooked in developer seeds; we can only expect Apple to release an update sometime in the very near future."

On ARS: http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars

I'll just wait before upgrading.

Anyone feedback on Timemachine?

 

[syadasti]

So I setup the firewall and turned it on, and probed it with Nessus and NMAP, and a couple of other tools. I was only port I was able find is the printer sharing port, which I did setup to allow. I think Heise is smoking some crack. Nmap couldn't even be sure of the OS and guessed openBSD, which is close.

10.5.1, released yesterday, includes numerous updates including the firewall:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=307004

*Application Firewall

CVE-ID: CVE-2007-4702

Available for: Mac OS X v10.5, Mac OS X Server v10.5

Impact: The "Block all incoming connections" setting for the firewall is misleading

Description: The "Block all incoming connections" setting for the Application Firewall allows any process running as user "root" (UID 0) to receive incoming connections, and also allows mDNSResponder to receive connections. This could result in the unexpected exposure of network services. This update addresses the issue by more accurately describing the option as "Allow only essential services, and by limiting the processes permitted to receive incoming connections under this setting to a small fixed set of system services: configd (for DHCP and other network configuration protocols), mDNSResponder (for Bonjour), and racoon (for IPSec). The "Help" content for the Application Firewall is also updated to provide further information. This issue does not affect systems prior to Mac OS X v10.5.

*Application Firewall

CVE-ID: CVE-2007-4703

Available for: Mac OS X v10.5, Mac OS X Server v10.5

Impact: Processes running as user "root" (UID 0) cannot be blocked when the firewall is set to "Set access for specific services and applications"

Description: The "Set access for specific services and applications" setting for the Application Firewall allows any process running as user "root" (UID 0) to receive incoming connections, even if its executable is specifically added to the list of programs and its entry in the list is marked as "Block incoming connections". This could result in the unexpected exposure of network services. This update corrects the issue so that any executable so marked is blocked. This issue does not affect systems prior to Mac OS X v10.5.

*Application Firewall

CVE-ID: CVE-2007-4704

Available for: Mac OS X v10.5, Mac OS X Server v10.5

Impact: Changes to Application Firewall settings do not affect processes started by launchd until they are restarted

Description: When the Application Firewall settings are changed, a running process started by launchd will not be affected until it is restarted. A user might expect changes to take effect immediately and so leave their system exposed to network access. This update corrects the issue so that changes take effect immediately. This issue does not affect systems prior to Mac OS X v10.5.

 

[blue]

Leopard is being bitchy and refuses to recognize the primary FAT32 partition I have set up for it. It wants to nuke my whole hard drive and THEEEN install.

Bastard machine.

 

[syadasti]

Leopard is being bitchy and refuses to recognize the primary FAT32 partition I have set up for it. It wants to nuke my whole hard drive and THEEEN install.

Bastard machine.

I doubt it. Are you using the disk utility from the install DVD to reformat (it incorrectly calls it erase) the fat32 partition to hfs+ before you run the installer?

 

[blue]

That would be the one...It says it has to nuke the whole disk, not just the partition. Tried it with my other drive, too.

Guess I'll just have to buy another HDD sooner than I thought...how many SATA drives does OSX recognize, anyway? Two? Only one HDD and the DVD drive show up during install.

*stab*

 

[syadasti]

Are you sure you are using the utility correctly? It shows the drive and under that it shows the partitions, you select the partition, and then choose the erase category...

 

[binary visions]

I had the previous version (not Leopard) installed briefly and it certainly didn't try to erase my whole drive upon install.

I had the partition set up for it in advance, though. There was a separate utility I downloaded to set the partition to primary and change it to hfs+ before I even rebooted to do the install. No idea of Leopard is different, just giving you something to look around for.

 

[syadasti]

I had the partition set up for it in advance, though. There was a separate utility I downloaded to set the partition to primary and change it to hfs+ before I even rebooted to do the install. No idea of Leopard is different, just giving you something to look around for.

He should have no problem using disk utility from the Leopard install DVD to reformat a fat32 partition to HFS+. I've done that in Tiger too when I got my mini and never used the stock HDD - had to format the new drive from the install DVD using the disk utility.