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Miami Passenger Shot by Air Marshals... was it the right thing to do?

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
So, was did the Air Marshal do the right thing at the time given the info he had to go from? Or should he be fired and brought up on charges?


Miami Passenger Shot by Air Marshals
By JOHN PAIN, Associated Press Writer

MIAMI - Shortly after boarding an Orlando-bound plane, passengers say, they saw a man bolt from his seat and run down the aisle, with his screaming wife and man in a Hawaiian shirt behind.

"My husband! My husband!" one passenger said she heard the wife cry.

The chase ended moments later Wednesday in a Miami International Airport jetway, when authorities say Rigoberto Alpizar appeared to reach for his bag. He was shot to death by the man in the Hawaiian shirt and a second pursuer, both undercover air marshals.

Before he ran off the plane he "uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb," said James E. Bauer, agent in charge of the Federal Air Marshal Service field office in Miami.

No bomb was found, and federal officials later concluded there was no link to terrorism. Witnesses said his wife, Anne, frantically tried to explain he was bipolar, a mental illness also known as manic-depression, and was off his medication.

"She said it was her fault, that he was bipolar," said Mike Beshears, a Flight 924 passenger who works for a vacation club in Orlando. "He was sick and she had convinced him to get on the plane."

It was the first time since the Sept. 11 attacks that an air marshal discharged a firearm at a passenger or suspect, Homeland Security Department spokesman Brian Doyle said.

Dave Adams, a spokesman for the air marshals, confirmed Thursday there were two marshals on the flight and said both fired at Alpizar.

"They felt their life was threatened," he told ABC's "Good Morning America." "This was a textbook scenario and they acted instinctively based on the training."

The Bush administration hired thousands of additional air marshals after Sept. 11, when the nation had only 33. The exact number now is classified. Marshals fly undercover, and which planes they're on is a closely guarded secret.

Officials declined to say how many times Alpizar was shot, but passengers reported hearing between four to six shots. Authorities did not confirm he suffered from a mental illness.

"The man sitting next to me got on the floor," said passenger Olga Echeverria, of Guatemala. "I threw myself on the floor to pray for God's mercy on us."

Alpizar, who worked in the paint department of a home supply store, was returning from a missionary trip, according to a neighbor who was watching his ranch-style house in the Orlando suburb of Maitland. He had arrived in Miami on a flight from Ecuador earlier Wednesday, said Rick Thomas, the airport's federal security director.

"We're all still in shock," said his sister-in-law, Kelley Buechner, in a telephone interview from her home in Milwaukee. "We're just speechless."

Investigators closed the concourse at the airport for half an hour and spread passengers' bags on the tarmac. Dogs sniffed them for explosives, and bomb squad members blew up at least two bags. No bombs were found.

The remaining passengers were kept on the plane for an hour, then police told them to leave with their hands behind their backs, said Lucy Argote, 15, of Codazi, Colombia. They had to leave their possessions behind.

Argote said Alpizar got up from his seat and ran toward the plane's door, with his wife yelling in Spanish.

"Officers told him to stop and he said no," the teen said. "He was running like a crazy man."

Another passenger, Mary Gardner, told WTVJ-TV in Miami that she also heard his wife call after him as he ran down the aisle.

"He was frantic, his arms flailing in the air," she said. She said a woman followed, shouting, "My husband! My husband!"

The Alpizars had been married for about two decades and met when Anne was an exchange student in Costa Rica, family members said. Rigoberto became a naturalized U.S. citizen.

The description of Alpizar by authorities and others stunned his friends and neighbors in central Florida.

"This whole neighborhood is shocked," said Alex McLeod, 16, who lives three houses from the Alpizars. "Totally uncharacteristic of the guy."

Charles Baez, manager of the MAB Paints store in Orlando where Alpizar used to work, described him as a health enthusiast who was always patient with customers.

"He was a quiet, reserved gentleman," Baez said Thursday. "It's very bizarre to me that he would do anything like that."
 

BIGHIT756

Monkey
Jan 6, 2004
435
0
Maple Valley, Washington
no meds or not, if you go running down the isle of a god damn plane like a crazy man, dont you think someone's gonna think something? i think the marshall was in the right. better to be safe than sorry.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,415
22,507
Sleazattle
Personally I think air marshals need to shoot more people on airplanes: loud talkers, farters, seat kickers, people who stink up the lavatories and people who hold everyone up getting off the plane by deciding they need to organize their lives at that very point in time.
 

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
I forsee that there will be a huge partisan debate about whether the shooting was justified or not, nothing will get solved and we will never really know what happened. I love this country's political system.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
I don't know seems pretty basic to me:

Guy said he had a bomb on an airplane (post 9-11).

Guy would not listen to law enforcement to stop threatening and submit to a search.

Guy was shot.

End of story.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
I'm confused...

After the Marshall shot and killed the guy, how come he didn't unwrap the banner, "Mission Accomplished", like they're supplied and trained to do afterwards?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
LordOpie said:
I'm confused...

After the Marshall shot and killed the guy, how come he didn't unwrap the banner, "Mission Accomplished", like they're supplied and trained to do afterwards?

Because he forgot?
 

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,617
2
G14 Classified
Echo said:
I forsee that there will be a huge partisan debate about whether the shooting was justified or not, nothing will get solved and we will never really know what happened. I love this country's political system.
You forgot the part about where the head of the investigation will the shooter himself. After all, he (she?) was there and is the right person to head an independent review.
 

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,617
2
G14 Classified
Uhh, it's my understanding that he was off the plane, had run away from the plane while being pursued by several armed men, when he finally stopped and reached for the bag. At that point, they then shot him.

I agree with JBP.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,919
2,886
Pōneke
Uh, I think I agree with N8 on this one. Shouting you have a bomb on a plane and refusing to stop for an armed American authority figure is pretty much the same as jumping in front of a large speeding truck.
 

blt2ride

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2005
2,332
0
Chatsworth
It's hard to say, since none of us were aboard this plane. However, saying you have a bomb and running wild on an airplane is not something a federal marshal is going to take lightly. On the other hand, I suppose it could be debated that a "non-lethal" defense could have been used.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but when you have to make a life or death choice in the matter of seconds, it's very difficult. I'm feel pretty confident that the marshal followed the proper procedures, and felt that he had to save the lives of the other passengers. I'm sure he DID NOT know that this was a mentally ill man, who hasn't been taking his medication. It's really a very sad and tragic story...
 

amydalayna

Turbo Monkey
Aug 16, 2005
1,507
0
south lake tahoe, ca
I haven't made my mind up about whether or not I believe the marshal did the right thing.
The thing that bothered me is watching the news yesterday, a womam at the airport was interviewed and said she was happy because justice was done?
What justice is there killing someone who isn't mentally all there?
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,976
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
If things are as represented, it's hard to fault the air marshal. But he had to wonder, why is the guy yelling bomb running off the plane, instead of on?
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
amydalayna said:
The thing that bothered me is watching the news yesterday, a womam at the airport was interviewed and said she was happy because justice was done?
What justice is there killing someone who isn't mentally all there?
for the same reason george bush executed mentally handicapped peopel while governor of TX. it's fun!
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
Reactor said:
If things are as represented, it's hard to fault the air marshal. But he had to wonder, why is the guy yelling bomb running off the plane, instead of on?
BREAKING NEWS!!!! NEW VIDEO REVEALED!!!

 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
14,919
2,886
Pōneke
amydalayna said:
I haven't made my mind up about whether or not I believe the marshal did the right thing.
The thing that bothered me is watching the news yesterday, a womam at the airport was interviewed and said she was happy because justice was done?
What justice is there killing someone who isn't mentally all there?
None. This certainly wasn't justice, it was a summary execution. However it was fairly predictable based on what we can read in the reports.

I have to add though, that shooting him once he was off the plane may have been a little heavy handed. As someone else said, you'd have to be pretty confident he didn't have a dead man's trigger. It'd be fairly irresponsible otherwise. I can just see the movie scene - Armed agent chases shouting lunatic off plane, he's running away across the tarmac - "Stop or I'll shoot" - Guy continues to run - Camera swaps to show crazy guy running towards us. We see the Marshall and the plane in the background, the Marshall levels his gun and fires two rounds. A pained expression crosses the fugitive's face as he almost reaches the camera. He falls, clearing our view of the Marshall and the plane. A second later - KaTHOOOOOM - The plane disintegrates into a massive orange fireball, throwing the Marshall to the floor. Ooopppps.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
narlus said:
for the same reason george bush executed mentally handicapped peopel while governor of TX. it's fun!
"Seatbelt for my arm...seatbelt for my leg...seatbelt for my heaaaad!"

(I never get tired of that one.)
 

amydalayna

Turbo Monkey
Aug 16, 2005
1,507
0
south lake tahoe, ca
narlus said:
for the same reason george bush executed mentally handicapped peopel while governor of TX. it's fun!
i think it's david cross who says the same thing. it just makes the world a better place. every time a mentally handicapped person is executed an angel gets its wings!
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,658
65
behind the viewfinder
amydalayna said:
i think it's david cross who says the same thing. it just makes the world a better place. every time a mentally handicapped person is executed an angel gets its wings!
that was the one. did you see the david cross thing ripping the 'git t done' guy? some comedian called larry the cable guy? i never heard of the guy, but the reaming DC gives him is worth reading.

http://www.bobanddavid.com/david.asp?artId=183
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
reflux said:
Uhh, it's my understanding that he was off the plane, had run away from the plane while being pursued by several armed men, when he finally stopped and reached for the bag. At that point, they then shot him.

I agree with JBP.
That's the London Underground scenario...
 

Discostu

Monkey
Nov 15, 2003
524
0
I think its a really terrible situation for all parties involved. There is no 'justice' with something like this. Based on the information I have from the news reports, I would say the Air Marshal was justified. Its not a happy ending for anyone, but thats the way it goes.
 

riverside73

Monkey
Nov 29, 2004
362
0
Westy said:
Personally I think air marshals need to shoot more people on airplanes: loud talkers, farters, seat kickers, people who stink up the lavatories and people who hold everyone up getting off the plane by deciding they need to organize their lives at that very point in time.


YYEEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!! Except for the farters. I have been known to get gassy on flights and would not want to be shot for it.
:blah:
 

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,617
2
G14 Classified
Entirely OT: I met this cute girl at a coffee shop about a year ago. We sat down and talked for a few minutes, she seemed cool enough so I made sure we saw each again. We get together for another cup of coffee a few days later. At this point, after we've known each other for no more than 2 or 3 hours, she laid it on me that she was buhlemic(sp?) during high school, was slightly anorexic at the time, and had a bipolar disorder that she didn't like taking medication for. Check please. Umm, talk about laying too much on a guy for a first date. She was funny, smart as hell, but just crazy enough to scare a guy off.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
reflux said:
Entirely OT: I met this cute girl at a coffee shop about a year ago. We sat down and talked for a few minutes, she seemed cool enough so I made sure we saw each again. We get together for another cup of coffee a few days later. At this point, after we've known each other for no more than 2 or 3 hours, she laid it on me that she was buhlemic(sp?) during high school, was slightly anorexic at the time, and had a bipolar disorder that she didn't like taking medication for. Check please. Umm, talk about laying too much on a guy for a first date. She was funny, smart as hell, but just crazy enough to scare a guy off.
You passed up mindblowing sex. Of course, you also avoided a potential Phil Hartman situation, but the chances of that aren't that high, y'know?
 

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,617
2
G14 Classified
Silver said:
You passed up mindblowing sex. Of course, you also avoided a potential Phil Hartman situation, but the chances of that aren't that high, y'know?
I passed up a once-in-a-lifetime experience, but I had good reason. I used my real name and place of business, so I would've had big problems if I didn't stay to cuddle for the requisite 90 minutes post coitus (the bare minimum at her suggestion).
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
Anyway, back to the topic. I feel bad for this guy. Sure, I probably would have shot him....but it seems that he was clearly not right. He was probably so out of his gourd that he didn't even know what he was doing.
 

gschuette

Monkey
Sep 22, 2004
621
0
Truck
amydalayna said:
What justice is there killing someone who isn't mentally all there?

You are right. They should have conducted a mental competency test as he ran away shouting he had a bomb.:rolleyes:
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
reflux said:
I passed up a once-in-a-lifetime experience, but I had good reason. I used my real name and place of business, so I would've had big problems if I didn't stay to cuddle for the requisite 90 minutes post coitus (the bare minimum at her suggestion).
Oh there's nothing like lying awake at night wondering if the psychochick you just pissed off is gonna plunge a knife into your chest.

You missed out big-time, really.
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
It is tragic that the guy had to die, BUT, c'mon what would have happened if he did have a bomb and they didn't try and stop using every bit of force they were capable of?