i've always been partial to old skool .30 cal myself.. M14 etc..
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080529/ap_on_re_us/army_chief_bullets
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080529/ap_on_re_us/army_chief_bullets
Military's M855 rifle rounds are not powerful enough for close-in fighting
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- bored with bores
eh. Old news.
The SS109 62 gr. "green tip" bullet used in the M855 round has a carbide cutting edge that offers excellent penetration (designed to cut through soviet flak jackets, not helmets). Unfortunately, for the last twenty years we've been fighting armies without armor and the round penetrates right through and leaves nothing but a .22" hole. The older M193 and newer Mk262 tumble and fragment on impact, leaving a horrific wound channel.
The SS109 62 gr. "green tip" bullet used in the M855 round has a carbide cutting edge that offers excellent penetration (designed to cut through soviet flak jackets, not helmets). Unfortunately, for the last twenty years we've been fighting armies without armor and the round penetrates right through and leaves nothing but a .22" hole. The older M193 and newer Mk262 tumble and fragment on impact, leaving a horrific wound channel.
It's not about being powerful enough, it's about being more effective, right? Still got 4-5 of those M193 battle packs in my safe, just incase Zday comes. Got about half an ammo can of the SS109's just incase some of those zombies are wearing armor. Got some other rounds too 
Damn Noob! I thought I had a good stock of 556 ammo. Just ordered 1000 rnds of m193 lake city from ammo man. Good brass to reload too just got to swage the primer pockets. Even have a couple of that south african 223 battle packs that were making the rounds at turners outdoorsman 3-4 years ago.
I dunno how well it will do against conventional armor...
When the round was designed soldiers were being issued PASGT armor, which carries no NIJ rating and is good against pistol and fragmentation threats. Now that ground troops are being issued full wrap IIIa armor with multistrike-capable IV plates front and rear (rated to stop a .30-'06 armor piercing round) I wouldn't think it would be that effective. It's also available for sale to the public, which means it isn't truly "armor piercing"...
But I guess it's better than nothing.
I always assumed the SS109 would tumble, like M193, after it pierced soft armor or flak vests. I couldn't test it because we were issued RAVs instead of PASGT and it was drilled into our heads exactly how expensive our gear was so no one had the balls to shoot at it for fun...
When the round was designed soldiers were being issued PASGT armor, which carries no NIJ rating and is good against pistol and fragmentation threats. Now that ground troops are being issued full wrap IIIa armor with multistrike-capable IV plates front and rear (rated to stop a .30-'06 armor piercing round) I wouldn't think it would be that effective. It's also available for sale to the public, which means it isn't truly "armor piercing"...
But I guess it's better than nothing.
I always assumed the SS109 would tumble, like M193, after it pierced soft armor or flak vests. I couldn't test it because we were issued RAVs instead of PASGT and it was drilled into our heads exactly how expensive our gear was so no one had the balls to shoot at it for fun...
When I was the commo guy for an ammo BN, the BN EOD guys would always get the decomissioned flak jackets from central issue. They were used as supplementary protection during drills and cookouts.
I was stupid one day (most days actually), and agreed to get shot by the LT cuz I sat on his breakfast. Layer 1, my personal IIA vest. Layer 2, Flak Jacket with trauma plate. Layer 3, Flak Jacket. Head/Face protection, EOD Helmet with Face Shield. Boy protection, cup. Three M193 rounds at 10 yards center mass. Didn't knock me down, but it pushed me back a bit. Trauma plate stopped all 3 rounds.
across tundra in teh Aleutian Isles...
only ship i was ever on was a Dutch frigate.. to drink Grolsch beer...
Well, I bet the conditions in the Aleutians were pretty hairy--but in Baghdad, I personally liked being able to tote 15 mags of 30. Since my kit weighs out at about 75 lbs inclusive, doubling the weight of my ammo wouldn't have been much of a choice; nor would I accept carrying half the rounds.
im sure more is always better!!!
I would love a good 7.62 under the right circumstances.
Unfortunately we're giving our soldiers heavier base loads with the addition of armor and electronics.
I'm not willing to reduce my loadout, or sacrifice protection or communications for a bigger bullet, unless we're talking a man-packable M2 or M67 RR...
Unfortunately we're giving our soldiers heavier base loads with the addition of armor and electronics.
I'm not willing to reduce my loadout, or sacrifice protection or communications for a bigger bullet, unless we're talking a man-packable M2 or M67 RR...
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Thought M855 was steel core? I think the stuff I have is.
carbide = steel = close enough cuz it still over penetrates plain flesh at close range
Yeah. I'm not a metallurgist, so bear with me -- but it's a steely-carbide so it gives most of the benefits of steel core without wrecking havoc on your barrel like real steel core bullets do.
It's also not truly a steel/carbide/whatever "core", only the green part or "penetrator" is steel.
It's also not truly a steel/carbide/whatever "core", only the green part or "penetrator" is steel.
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fixed!
You poor bastard.. You were at 29 stumps? I feel your pain brotha. I spent countless never ending weeks in the sandbox at Ft. Irwin.
mmm me likes me some warthog. I've seen those birds let loose on a target. It's awe inspiring to think of how many "D battery" sized projectiles are being let loose with one trigger squeeze.
solution? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28mm
Oh man... I was looking at the 5-seven too (can't afford a p90). Special coating + untapered case = a very limited case lifespan. There go my reloading hopes.
They offer that 5.7 for civilian purchase? What happened to all that talk of bringing in the 6.8 spc for military use?
Still being developed but there is no timetable at this time from what i gather..
the 6.8 spc would be the way to go, that's for sure.
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/archive/sgn_68spc.pdf
*If* they decide to switch to the 6.8 SPC it will be at least another 5 years before the decision is finalized. Since all upper receivers, barrels, sights, scopes, and magazines will need to be changed it will be years later that it's fully fielded.
To compound the issue, it's been realized that the 6.8 doesn't offer much greater effective range than the 5.56 (one of the two chief complaints about the 5.56), and there's strong debate as to whether it's worth the extra coin when the ballistics are compared to the mk262 round that we should be issuing our troops anyway.
Further compounding the issue, if we adopt the 6.8mm M4 carbine, we no longer have interoperability with the M249. We are also basically back to square one with the gas-piston carbines that we've been working so hard on.
EVEN further compounding the issue is that soldiers were born to complain, still won't be happy with whatever decision is reached, and wouldn't even be happy if we gave them power armor a la Starship Troopers.
MI does the dying, Fleet just does the flying.
To compound the issue, it's been realized that the 6.8 doesn't offer much greater effective range than the 5.56 (one of the two chief complaints about the 5.56), and there's strong debate as to whether it's worth the extra coin when the ballistics are compared to the mk262 round that we should be issuing our troops anyway.
Further compounding the issue, if we adopt the 6.8mm M4 carbine, we no longer have interoperability with the M249. We are also basically back to square one with the gas-piston carbines that we've been working so hard on.
EVEN further compounding the issue is that soldiers were born to complain, still won't be happy with whatever decision is reached, and wouldn't even be happy if we gave them power armor a la Starship Troopers.
MI does the dying, Fleet just does the flying.
i find it interesting that the 6.8mm SPC is very close to the original M1 Garand caliber of .276
Farkin good movie, mate! Truly takes the piss out of a sertain society of ours.
Have you read the book...?
The movie is also an interesting example of satire that's so close to the subject matter that it does, in fact, function as the subject. Had this issue when I taught art photography and all the budding feminists decided to "subvert the forms of pornography by appropriating it," and in the end, just turned out fairly tame porn.
Not that it was upsetting to check out the latest student work--but it was sad to try and tell them that the only value in their work was that they had a fantastic rack and/or ass (or the complete opposite...) The professor was always happy to have me around to break this news to them more directly than she found herself capable of.
With Starship Troopers, however, it is interesting how it's more obviously seen as satire now, by viewers and critics alike, than in the 90s when it came out...
The movie is also an interesting example of satire that's so close to the subject matter that it does, in fact, function as the subject. Had this issue when I taught art photography and all the budding feminists decided to "subvert the forms of pornography by appropriating it," and in the end, just turned out fairly tame porn.
Not that it was upsetting to check out the latest student work--but it was sad to try and tell them that the only value in their work was that they had a fantastic rack and/or ass (or the complete opposite...) The professor was always happy to have me around to break this news to them more directly than she found herself capable of.
With Starship Troopers, however, it is interesting how it's more obviously seen as satire now, by viewers and critics alike, than in the 90s when it came out...
Hahah yeah, I've read some in leftist papers about that type of pornography, so, naturally, I checked one of those sites out. Wasn't close to anything pornographic, and on top of that they seemed to have run out of ideas of how to make it feminist. It could probably be sorted as erotic, but prOn is a quite a lot about owning the other person in an act.
That's at least how I look upon it and I nkow there are at least one feministic fraction, of many existant, that sees it the same way as me. Althogh, the technique they're using, subverting the meaning of things, has actually worked many times in other things, after enough people have adopted the new consept. One of those is when gays of diferent types started calling them selves queers.
Yeah, it was the same for me, first time I saw it (when it was pretty new) I thought it was a shallow stupid propaganda movie. Then a lot of time passed, and while looking for something light to dl I found it and couldn't remember what it was, so I looked it up on IMDB and the reading there was the best I've seen about a movie.
There there were a battle, mainly between europeans and US americans, over how good/bad it was, and it opend my eyes for what it really was. Those who thought it was bad was because it didn't follow the book (which I still haven't read). Of course, during that period I had gained new knowledge, which sertainly helped me analyze stuff better.
Prabably was the same for those others that today see the film for what it is. We matured, cought up. Same went for the Matrix, thought it was crap first time I saw it, now it's the dobermanns undercarriage.
But had the movie not been made as close to the subject as it was, it would probably not have turned out as good as it did. Art, both in film, paintings, photos, and books, seems to use that for quite a lot; describing something that at first eye looks plain, but having a lot of meaning to it, or reversed in this case, that unveils for the trained eye.
Dunno much about painting or photography, but in films and books that deal with society on a philosophical level, or portray its wickednesses, there are many wxamples; StarWars, Delirium, George Orwell, and Matrix and Plantet of the Apes I've already mentioned today.
If you have any more examples of similar films or books, plese tell!
This was a very interesting read..
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/mk262_080105/index.html#cont
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/mk262_080105/index.html#cont
I, for one, would be happy if I could shower with Denise Richards...
Curly was way hotter!
Uhhmmm, sure. To each his own I guess...nyuk nyuk nyuk!