Amazing nobody has mentioned the fact that there ins't a single Honda sticker of logo on it anywhere.
Minaar's Honda 4X bike (close-up shot, in the pits)
- Thread starter S.K.C.
- Start date
Why does a company like honda doing all this MTB thing...
They're trying to sell more dirt bikes to mountain bikers
They're testing a new wallmart bike...
They're trying to sell more dirt bikes to mountain bikers
They're testing a new wallmart bike...
It's not a Honda,It's made by Honda for him under his own name.
Flog the dead "Horse"for as long as you can. Typo relavant to suspension?
Flog the dead "Horse"for as long as you can. Typo relavant to suspension?
It has to do with research and development and I actually think Honda see somekind of future in DH racing.la_cleta said:Why does a company like honda doing all this MTB thing...
They're trying to sell more dirt bikes to mountain bikers
They're testing a new wallmart bike...
My guess is that eventually ALL motorsports will be banished because of environmental issues.
J
JRB
Guest
That's not going to fix the fact that you said "horse link" after all of your arguing in this thread.no skid marks said:
"horse-linker"!!!!
no skid marks said:
No, you're simply wrong. I already explained why - the forces transmitted through the pivot(s) vary according to the shock's location, and they ALWAYS BALANCE OUT so that the net force on the front triangle (and thus the rider) is THE SAME. The only thing that will change this is shock rate or axle path, neither of which have anything specifically to do with the orientation of the shock. If you believe you've felt this, it's because of a bike with poor rebound damping (or is oversprung). It's COINCIDENTAL that it happened to be on a bike with a vertically mounted shock.
its miror retard - like the have the stools to hold up a dirt bike - they have a stand for a mtb and its just fancy and has a shiny plate on itluelling said:
It is a Honda. Honda is designing the bikes and funding a race program. They aren't making the bike just for Minnaar. They have a few japanese riders and Matti Lehikonen riding for them as well. And There are also rumors floating around of Honda giving plans to a company in taiwan to start mass producing the frames. The bike IS a Honda.no skid marks said:
All the horse link must be getting to your head.
But there is a G-cross sticker...dropmachine.com said:
Like you said, levers can redirect the direction of the shock, but the end result is still the same forces being input from the wheel. The pivot location will make for the "pogo" feel you mention regaurdless of how the shock is situated.no skid marks said:
I'm having trouble getting my head around your theory in full(i've already mentioned I agree pivots disperse energy)The shock angle or where the non moving end is aimed would have to have some effect if it is the path of least resistance,E.G an Orange with rider sitting (Heavy guy)on seat,bottoms out,on rebound stroke the shocks energy pushes the bike forward as well as pivot sending energy wherever and rear wheel doing it's thing and seatt trying to penetrate fat dude etc. Yes,No?
Ok, I see where you're comming from now.
What I see with many real basic single pivots (swingarm, shock, frame, no linkage) is that is common to have a right angle between the shock and swingarm under full compression. That is, if you draw a line from pivot to swingarm/shock mount and another along the centerline of the shock, you'd see a right angle between those two lines at full compression. The reason for that is that under full compression, the shock has full mechanical advantage whereas under full extension it does not. This makes for everybody's favorite progressive curve. Now, not every SP is like that. For example, the Santa Cruz heckler, which is pretty much the opposite of what I just said.
I think this is what's leading you to that "pogo' assumption. All I can really say to that is rebound damping - even with just a bit, it makes all the difference. With none, yes it would be mad bouncy.
In the end, it's all up to the designer. When I did my little 4X bike, I went for my right angle idea and I loved how it felt. In that thing, the shock is about level with the ground. It's all about how you decide build the frame around the suspension design.
What I see with many real basic single pivots (swingarm, shock, frame, no linkage) is that is common to have a right angle between the shock and swingarm under full compression. That is, if you draw a line from pivot to swingarm/shock mount and another along the centerline of the shock, you'd see a right angle between those two lines at full compression. The reason for that is that under full compression, the shock has full mechanical advantage whereas under full extension it does not. This makes for everybody's favorite progressive curve. Now, not every SP is like that. For example, the Santa Cruz heckler, which is pretty much the opposite of what I just said.
I think this is what's leading you to that "pogo' assumption. All I can really say to that is rebound damping - even with just a bit, it makes all the difference. With none, yes it would be mad bouncy.
In the end, it's all up to the designer. When I did my little 4X bike, I went for my right angle idea and I loved how it felt. In that thing, the shock is about level with the ground. It's all about how you decide build the frame around the suspension design.
You are making my head hurt....go away. You are over complicating this matter far too much. Pick up a Statics book and read the first few chapters, hang your head in shame, then come back here and discuss.no skid marks said:
Why hasn't anybody mentioned the amount of form work done on this thing?? Ugly or not, there is some pretty interesting stuff going on with the design. It looks like the second frame has an actual down tube with a welded monocoque section to it, but the earlier (I am assuming its an earlier version as the pivot look less refined) design is formed section.
It does look like they stole the swing arm off a '91 San Andreas...but where is the sweet multicolor elastomer "shock"?
Dude, totally false analogy. ANY bike with no rebound damping will kick a rider up, TOTALLY REGARDLESS of where the shock is mounted. All the shock does is balance the moment about the pivot that the axle generates. Balancing forces in the X (horizontal) and Y (vertical) after you balance that moment, will give different forces at the pivot and the shock mount, but these will balance out relative to the front triangle/CoM overall. Always. The net result (in terms of direction) of the forces will be THE SAME as if the whole bike was a rigid structure and you applied the force at the axle. It's not rocket science dude, stop trying to complicate stuff so much.no skid marks said:
**** I just made a small ****ing statement,some big mouths tried to shoot me down and I was left to justify and explain it. There's many factors that will overide what I'm saying,but the affect is there non the less. It is very ****ing complex otherwise we would have less variety in design. Everyones looking for the best compromise wich leads to minor flaws like the one I've addressed here. Good attemt but still don't cut it for me.There will always be a path of least resistance for the shocks rebounding energy and I believe this design to offer an oportunity(if unweighted for example)to replicate the exact force it is meant to nullify(the rears upward movement from a bump) but in a smaller and distorted scale.
I'm sick of hearing my own voice,carry on, Bahh bahh.
I will conform now,does this square suit me.
I'm sick of hearing my own voice,carry on, Bahh bahh.
I will conform now,does this square suit me.
No, there's not "many factors". You're just wrong, because this is pretty basic stuff. Stop blaming everyone else for "shooting you down", because they're simply correcting a totally flawed idea you've come up with to explain a phenomenon you've experienced on some bikes which HAPPEN to have a vertical shock orientation. Read up on some basic statics theory, as others have said. "Path of least resistance occurs for stuff like ELECTRICITY - suspension is purely Newtonian physics", and at no time does rocket science enter into this. Any shock extending will push a bike/rider mass upwards, that's the whole point of it, and it's NOTHING TO DO with where the shock is oriented. Do some free body diagrams of a swingarm setup with a point force (vertical) at the axle, the shock moment balancing it, and the resultant forces on the pivot. Do them with two different shock locations and assume that the whole front triangle pivots around the FRONT axle (as though the fork is not compressing/extending) when the rear end moves. Then you will see why the shock orientation doesn't matter.no skid marks said:
Please, whatever you do, DON'T search for "suspension design" or "single pivot" or "horst link" in previous threads... this is far too entertaining.
One time I sailed across the English Channel by blowing on the sails of my boat. And another time I made a scale read "500lbs" by standing on it and pushing on my feet with my hands. And another time, I dropped a turd that looked just like Dick Cheney... 32-gauge, wicked smile, and all.
One time I sailed across the English Channel by blowing on the sails of my boat. And another time I made a scale read "500lbs" by standing on it and pushing on my feet with my hands. And another time, I dropped a turd that looked just like Dick Cheney... 32-gauge, wicked smile, and all.
Ole' skid mark needs one of these:
no skid marks needs to go back to school.
that being said the bike is ugly, but serves a purpose. the right tool for the job...
that being said the bike is ugly, but serves a purpose. the right tool for the job...
Skid, you need to consider that damping and spring rate are independant. I think you're confusing the two, it's true that a vertical shock in this configuration may have a lower spring rate due to the forces being transferred directly into the shock rather than being modified by linkages, damping doesn't care about the linkages though. With coil over shocks all the damping cares about is the spring rate of the coil surrounding the damper as this is the most important force it has to overcome, there is no such thing as a damping linkage, I suppose that it is possible that the damping could follow a curve and be either progressive or regressive but it's pretty insignificant in rebound compared to compression.
:nonono:
All of the inputs and interactions going on on even a simple single-pivot system are FAR too complex to be discussed (let alone evaluated) when we're limited to text/an internet forum. It's laughable that anyone is trying to assert anything at this point.
One way to do it is to sit down with some proper software and draw it up, make some meaningful plots of what's going on, and discuss what those plots might mean provided the parties involved know their stuff. That said, the majority of posters here and I need to accept that we don't know our stuff and can't do much more than babble about this sort of thing.
Someone with a masters in mech engineering --> :teacher:
<-- RM users.
All of the inputs and interactions going on on even a simple single-pivot system are FAR too complex to be discussed (let alone evaluated) when we're limited to text/an internet forum. It's laughable that anyone is trying to assert anything at this point.
One way to do it is to sit down with some proper software and draw it up, make some meaningful plots of what's going on, and discuss what those plots might mean provided the parties involved know their stuff. That said, the majority of posters here and I need to accept that we don't know our stuff and can't do much more than babble about this sort of thing.
Someone with a masters in mech engineering --> :teacher:
<-- RM users.
Haha...nice use of the smilies! :trophy_br
that fact is it won't, you are imagining things. the rebound in a sprung system depends on the springing portion and has piss all to do with the geometry of the setup.:teacher:no skid marks said:
Which is why we should get DW to clear this all up since I'm sure he's done just that before.Superdeft said::nonono:
All of the inputs and interactions going on on even a simple single-pivot system are FAR too complex to be discussed (let alone evaluated) when we're limited to text/an internet forum. It's laughable that anyone is trying to assert anything at this point.
One way to do it is to sit down with some proper software and draw it up, make some meaningful plots of what's going on, and discuss what those plots might mean provided the parties involved know their stuff. That said, the majority of posters here and I need to accept that we don't know our stuff and can't do much more than babble about this sort of thing.
Someone with a masters in mech engineering --> :teacher:
Tame Ape said:
nope. there asimectricle. its thicker on one side and smaller on another
Nah dude, it's really not that complicated at all. Textual explanations are a bit harder to comprehend, but basic FBDs (which I cbf drawing up since it takes a fair while) will explain all this very simply.Superdeft said::nonono:
All of the inputs and interactions going on on even a simple single-pivot system are FAR too complex to be discussed (let alone evaluated) when we're limited to text/an internet forum. It's laughable that anyone is trying to assert anything at this point.
One way to do it is to sit down with some proper software and draw it up, make some meaningful plots of what's going on, and discuss what those plots might mean provided the parties involved know their stuff. That said, the majority of posters here and I need to accept that we don't know our stuff and can't do much more than babble about this sort of thing.
Someone with a masters in mech engineering --> :teacher:
Like I said before:
- vertical force at axle creates moment about pivot
- shock provides balancing moment about pivot
- Forces in the vertical direction have already been determined for the axle and the shock as we know their magnitude/direction
- Balance forces in the vertical direction to get the vertical force at the pivot
- Balance forces in the horizontal direction to get the horizontal force at the pivot (you already know the horizontal component at the axle is zero, so the horizontal component of the shock force gives the [negative of the] horizontal component of the pivot force).
- Balance moments on the front triangle about the front axle; that means taking into account the mass at the CoM versus the shock force and pivot force.
You'll find that the last step (balancing moments about the front axle) will always yield the same result as if you just measured the vertical force on the rear axle and calculated the moment THAT generates about the front axle. The forces internal to the bike are IRRELEVANT unless they involve changing the shock rate or the geometry of the system (wheelbase, position of CoM etc) but even then the moments WILL BALANCE OUT. So, in short, shock position is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.
sinisteridge said:
the word you are trying to spell is asymmetrical. Not trying to be a dic* I am just trying to help a Bro out
This would be the well-functioning horse-link referred to earlier. This one pogo'd too hard.
Attachments
I am an ass,I am an ass,I am an ass,I am an ass,I am an ass,Iam an ass,I am an ass,I am an ass,I am an ass,I am an ass,I am an ass
I bow down and surrender.
I bow down and surrender.
Skid we're just giving you a hard time, relax.
Who makes the frame?
Take a step back and put yourself in the engineer/designers shoes.. Most importantly Honda is using the DH bikes to test lighter weight MotoX frames. They have no plans for full production of bikes. Showa is also working on making lighter weight suspension. The bike is designed like a MotoX bike and has the same shock placement.no skid marks said:
That's the faux horse-link...The non-patented donkey link used by the likes of Trek and Kona. This is what happens when you use a faux horse!bomberboy11 said: