[blue]

Did you hear that on Dr. Phil or from your guidance counselor? Surely you see the differnce between someone who makes fries and someone who does cancer research. Your little communist schtick is getting old. Maybe try dabbling in reality.

What about attorneys? Investors? Real estate agents? Bike messengers? Computer programmers? Stock brokers? CPAs? Receptionists? Retail sales cleks? Journalists?

When it comes down to it, nearly all of us do utterly useless and pointless jobs (okay, let's be facetious and exempt the doctors and the farmers), so why should some professions be more valued than others?

I've been unaware of a communist schtick up until this point...

 

[rockwool]

Did you hear that on Dr. Phil or from your guidance counselor? Surely you see the differnce between someone who makes fries and someone who does cancer research. Your little communist schtick is getting old. Maybe try dabbling in reality.

Some people are born with gifts, like Rex Grossman, and use them to the best of their abilities. Some people are born without gifts and give 100% in the things they too. In comparison their effort is not much to talk about, but it's still 100%.


As kids in school our teacher once told us this story:
There was a rich man in Calcutta who gave 1000 rupies to a charity. A homeless person had one single rupie and gave that away.
Who gave the most?

It is not what you achieve, it's that you give it your everything (I think they call it kharma yoga in India).

 

[BurlyShirley]

When it comes down to it, nearly all of us do utterly useless and pointless jobs (okay, let's be facetious and exempt the doctors and the farmers), so why should some professions be more valued than others?

Who is to say what is useless or pointless? One could say that a doctor or farmer is equally as useless as any of the other professions you mentioned from the proper perspective. If you cant see why certain skilled profession/positions pay more than others (not only due to market demand, but many other factors) then its probably not worth debating with you.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Some people are born with gifts, like Rex Grossman, and use them to the best of their abilities. Some people are born without gifts and give 100% in the things they too. In comparison their effort is not much to talk about, but it's still 100%.


As kids in school our teacher once told us this story:
There was a rich man in Calcutta who gave 1000 rupies to a charity. A homeless person had one single rupie and gave that away.
Who gave the most?

It is not what you achieve, it's that you give it your everything (I think they call it kharma yoga in India).

...a single tear rolls down my cheek.

 

[rockwool]

Who is to say what is useless or pointless? One could say that a doctor or farmer is equally as useless as any of the other professions you mentioned from the proper perspective. If you cant see why certain skilled profession/positions pay more than others (not only due to market demand, but many other factors) then its probably not worth debating with you.

For sure some professions pay more than others because the people that have them are highly educated and are both smarter than many and also highly educated; they have a way with words. In my eyes that makes you a fortunate person, not a higher beeing, über race or in any way worth more.

 

[rockwool]

...a single tear rolls down my cheek.

-"Michael Jackson is a special guy, he's sensitive.."
-"Ya, he's special..."

think it's from Delirious

 

[BurlyShirley]

For sure some professions pay more than others because the people that have them are highly educated and are both smarter than many and also highly educated; they have a way with words. In my eyes that makes you a fortunate person, not a higher beeing, über race or in any way worth more.

It may not make you a higher being, but as in any case, nature included, the smartest, strongest, fastest, etc... tend to accomplish most. Human society is only an extension of the same idea. The smarter, more proficient beings will excel always.

 

[rockwool]

It may not make you a higher being, but as in any case, nature included, the smartest, strongest, fastest, etc... tend to accomplish most. Human society is only an extension of the same idea. The smarter, more proficient beings will excel always.

We humans have soo many abilities that distinguish us from animals. We shouldn't take after their bad behaviors, only their good. Jealousy and greed I see in my dogs, possesion of more bones than they can bite on.

 

[Toshi]

You prefer really white neighborhoods I guess....

what makes you think migration of people would lead to whiter neighborhoods? the midwest is pretty white already -- any change would have to be towards more diversity. i'm all for breaking up neighborhoods that seem to fester in their own culture of doing not much at all.

 

[LordOpie]

If all jobs paid the same... what would encourage people to do anything?

 

[rockwool]

If all jobs paid the same... what would encourage people to do anything?

Surely you don't mean that the single engine for the creativity of humanity is money? Sure it's there but the major engines are things like intelectual curiosity and the sheer chalenge of it.

...And aparantly a good load of cash isn't the motivation to get people to work as custodians or moving big fat furnitures a whole heep of stairs. They do it for a few dollars above existance minimum.

Fact is we need to work, contribute to the society in some way so that we can eat and sleep under roof etc. But there it is a lye that we need to work 40h per week. That we do so we can live in abundance. 40h per week while a great part of the worlds population don't have any jobs/source of income (mainly in the 3rd world).

I'm not sure but I think the UN considers a job, together with food, education and health care, to be a corner stone in peoples rights. That means we in who work full time need not work more than half time. So next time your boss gives you too much work, you tell him that.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

If you're so lazy that you choose instead to cook fries all day, then you deserve to be poor.

Why are lesbians so lazy?
Because they don't do dick and they always eat out!

 

[fluff]

Why should someone who works hard be paid more than someone who doesn't?

I think there shouldn't be a minimum wage unless you are under 18. If you are self supporting, then you should be allowed to earn what you are worth. If you're worth a buck an hour, then so be it.

I tip $1 per song at the strip club as a "minimum wage" unless the dancer is truly gifted. Should I tip by the hour instead?

Who said anything about comparative work rates? Pay by output if you like, but pay a living wage.

 

[fluff]

It's actually not hard at all to learn some skill and make a living peforming it. If you're so lazy that you choose instead to cook fries all day, then you deserve to be poor. And even cooking fries, after just a month or so pays more than minimum wage. The idea that real, hard working people are struggling to get by because the minimum wage is too low is just retarded.

So everyone qualifies to be a surgeon and still someone has to serve fries... you gonna pay them surgeon rates?

For society to function someone must do the crappy jobs, doesn't make them unworthy of a living wage. Think waste disposal is an easy ride? Want to do it yourself?

If a job needs doing it should be paid so that whoever does it can live. Anything else is simply exploitation of the lower echelons of the labour force. And it has nothing to do with work rates.

 

[fluff]

If all jobs paid the same... what would encourage people to do anything?

What does that have to do with minimum wage?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

So everyone qualifies to be a surgeon and still someone has to serve fries... you gonna pay them surgeon rates?

For society to function someone must do the crappy jobs, doesn't make them unworthy of a living wage. Think waste disposal is an easy ride? Want to do it yourself?

If a job needs doing it should be paid so that whoever does it can live. Anything else is simply exploitation of the lower echelons of the labour force. And it has nothing to do with work rates.

Well said fluff, it's good to have you back.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

If a job needs doing it should be paid so that whoever does it can live. Anything else is simply exploitation of the lower echelons of the labour force. And it has nothing to do with work rates.

thats very 1st-world centric.....

paying "living wages" in peru, would probably rise up unemployment to 90%.

 

[Ciaran]

paying "living wages" in peru, would probably rise up unemployment to 90%.

How so? Please explain.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

How so? Please explain.

am taking fluff idea to the extremes to test its validity. in the 1st world, the gap between "living wage" and actual minimum wage isnt thaaaaat big. so maybe the idea has some grip on reality.

but here minimum wage is around US$120 a month, for four 40 hour weeks, 14 salaries a year, 1 month of vacation.

even with a minimum salary that low, underemployment (that is, getting paid under the table, or worse yet, less than minimum wage) hovers around 40-50%. unemployment is around 7%.

quoting unions, a "living salary" in peru, should be at least $600, after taxes, a month. there is no way a crapload of people would get not fired if such a raise could come to effect and be effectively enforced.

 

[BurlyShirley]

So everyone qualifies to be a surgeon and still someone has to serve fries... you gonna pay them surgeon rates?

For society to function someone must do the crappy jobs, doesn't make them unworthy of a living wage. Think waste disposal is an easy ride? Want to do it yourself?

Waste disposal actually pays well here. The guys that pick up my trash are city employees with health insurance, retirement plans, and decent salaries. Anyone willing to put for the effort, at least in this country, can make enough to get by. No one actually works for minimum wage unless they're also mooching off welfare and are required to work (and I use the term lightly) to keep the funds rolling in.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

No one actually works for minimum wage unless they're also mooching off welfare and are required to work (and I use the term lightly) to keep the funds rolling in.

Wow, sweeping statement anyone?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Wow, sweeping statement anyone?

As the great AlexisDH once said, "Being poor in the US is like starving to death in a corn field."

 

[Old Man G Funk]

As the great AlexisDH once said, "Being poor in the US is like starving to death in a corn field."

And yet, we have tons of people that are homeless. Why don't you go tell them that. Why don't you also travel up to Flint, MI and tell the people that lost their auto industry jobs that. How about the poor in Appalachia? Nope, all the poor people in this country are just lazy no-good-for-nothings. They obviously have no work ethic.

 

[BurlyShirley]

And yet, we have tons of people that are homeless. Why don't you go tell them that.

I do. Every time they ask me for change.

Actually most homeless people are either mentall ill or drug addicts. As such, they're an exception. They cant help themselves.

Why don't you also travel up to Flint, MI and tell the people that lost their auto industry jobs that. How about the poor in Appalachia?

...and yet, millions of poor mexicans can manage to overcome international boarders and a significant langauge barrier to earn a decent living.

Nope, all the poor people in this country are just lazy no-good-for-nothings. They obviously have no work ethic.

Many are. I can see a single mom with 9 kids or a homeless park bum with dimensia who exposes himself to joggers NEEDING help. But others....meh.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

...and yet, millions of poor mexicans can manage to overcome international boarders and a significant langauge barrier to earn a decent living.

Maybe Americans would rather search for a job that pays a living wage instead of toiling for not enough. Meanwhile, the immigrant is used to squalid conditions and sees a small step up from that as rather good. It's all in perspective I guess, but that doesn't mean that the immigrant in slightly better than squalid condition, but still living in extreme poverty and having to work 3 jobs to make ends meet is "earn[ing] a decent living."

 

[Toshi]

And yet, we have tons of people that are homeless. Why don't you go tell them that. Why don't you also travel up to Flint, MI and tell the people that lost their auto industry jobs that. How about the poor in Appalachia? Nope, all the poor people in this country are just lazy no-good-for-nothings. They obviously have no work ethic.

BS has already covered the homeless. as for your other examples, if there are more listless people than jobs in an area, why don't they move elsewhere as the immigrants do, only on a regional scale? that's right, because it's more pleasant for them to draw welfare, hang out with their buddies, and complain.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Maybe Americans would rather search for a job that pays a living wage instead of toiling for not enough. Meanwhile, the immigrant is used to squalid conditions and sees a small step up from that as rather good. It's all in perspective I guess, but that doesn't mean that the immigrant in slightly better than squalid condition, but still living in extreme poverty and having to work 3 jobs to make ends meet is "earn[ing] a decent living."

more anecdotal evidence.

when i was in college, there were plenty of peruvian (illegal obviously) immigrants working in the city.

we talked all the time about lima and stuff... i heard lots of stories from that perspective.

a lot of them didnt speak much english, came to the US deep in debt with border smugglers.

i remember a family of 2 brothers and 1 sister, 1 of them didnt speak english at all... who worked as cooks and dishwashers at an italian restaurant.... they were in their 40s, they had families in peru to whom they sent money to pay for college... they had been in the US for about 5 years... each one of them had saved between $30K-$45k in those 5 years, even after paying off the trip debt and sending money back to peru to support their kids. they worked their asses off though.

and i know for a fact they had that kinda coin.
over $160k (and they never invested their money, it was pure salary) altogether when they came back after 7 years. my sister, an attorney, helped them do their paperwork (returning immigrants get tax incentives and lots of rebates) when they moved back to peru not so long ago.

and they arrived 10k in debt, no skills, middle aged, not knowing a word of english, and made their savings mostly at minimal wage jobs. it was only after a few years they learn some english and got "better" (think $9/hour) jobs.
ever since, i lost a lot of respect for the dirt poor americans.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Maybe Americans would rather search for a job that pays a living wage instead of toiling for not enough.

Why is it "not enough" when others are easily living off this "living wage" and still sending money back to the family in mexico? Yes, poor americans would rather sit around and wait to be rescued. Or wait to win the lottery, or wait for the welfare check... you fully understand the problem yet fail to acknowledge it.

Meanwhile, the immigrant is used to squalid conditions and sees a small step up from that as rather good. It's all in perspective I guess, but that doesn't mean that the immigrant in slightly better than squalid condition, but still living in extreme poverty and having to work 3 jobs to make ends meet is "earn[ing] a decent living."

So now you want not only a higher minimum wage, but also everyone to have an easy go of earning it? Personally I think most people could use a few good years of hard labor to get their heads on straight. Teaches people the value of a dollar when they have to bust their ass for it.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

BS has already covered the homeless. as for your other examples, if there are more listless people than jobs in an area, why don't they move elsewhere as the immigrants do, only on a regional scale? that's right, because it's more pleasant for them to draw welfare, hang out with their buddies, and complain.

Yup, because it's so easy to pick up and move whenever. Immigrants do it oftentimes while leaving behind their families, etc. I don't think that's such a great thing for them.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

more anecdotal evidence.

when i was in college, there were plenty of peruvian (illegal obviously) immigrants working in the city.

we talked all the time about lima and stuff... i heard lots of stories from that perspective.

a lot of them didnt speak much english, came to the US deep in debt with border smugglers.

i remember a family of 2 brothers and 1 sister, 1 of them didnt speak english at all... who worked as cooks and dishwashers at an italian restaurant.... they were in their 40s, they had families in peru to whom they sent money to pay for college... they had been in the US for about 5 years... each one of them had saved between $30K-$45k in those 5 years, even after paying off the trip debt and sending money back to peru to support their kids. they worked their asses off though.

and i know for a fact they had that kinda coin.
over $160k (and they never invested their money, it was pure salary) altogether when they came back after 7 years. my sister, an attorney, helped them do their paperwork (returning immigrants get tax incentives and lots of rebates) when they moved back to peru not so long ago.

and they arrived 10k in debt, no skills, middle aged, not knowing a word of english, and made their savings mostly at minimal wage jobs. it was only after a few years they learn some english and got "better" (think $9/hour) jobs.
ever since, i lost a lot of respect for the dirt poor americans.

Yeah, sometimes that happens, but to extrapolate that into, "All poor Americans are lazy SOBs," is a bit of a stretch. If I remember correctly, you lived in an area with a pretty low cost of living?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Yeah, sometimes that happens, but to extrapolate that into, "All poor Americans are lazy SOBs," is a bit of a stretch. If I remember correctly, you lived in an area with a pretty low cost of living?

i lived in alabama and for a while in nyc too.

anyways, if lived on a limited income and had no skills (pretty much my profile in my college days) i would move out of nyc, just like i did.
and just like toshi and bs suggest.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Why is it "not enough" when others are easily living off this "living wage" and still sending money back to the family in mexico? Yes, poor americans would rather sit around and wait to be rescued. Or wait to win the lottery, or wait for the welfare check... you fully understand the problem yet fail to acknowledge it.

I've seen families scrounging for enough to pay the bills and with 5 other families in a 1 bedroom apartment. In the land of milk and honey, that's a little bit hard to swallow. Also, simply because there are some poor Americans that are lazy, doesn't mean that all are. You can't paint with that broad of a brush.

So now you want not only a higher minimum wage, but also everyone to have an easy go of earning it? Personally I think most people could use a few good years of hard labor to get their heads on straight. Teaches people the value of a dollar when they have to bust their ass for it.

Where did I say that? Oh, I know, because I don't think that someone should have to work 3 jobs in order to make ends meet I must think that people should just be paid for living. Nice one. So, you have no problem with someone needing three jobs to pay their rent on a small 1 br. apartment in a more expensive area? Hey, we need people to fill the same jobs in NYC as we do where you live. If you think that someone in NYC can get by making the same as someone in your neck of the woods (BF TN, right?) then you're living make-believe land. Besides, why shouldn't 40 hrs. of hard work be enough for someone to get by? Why should some people be forced to work 80 hrs. or more a week just to make ends meet? Especially in a country where CEOs make so much more money than the common worker? Is that fair to you? Hell, why don't we just bring back child labor so that those lazy ass children that I see all the time will learn the value of hard work?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

i lived in alabama and for a while in nyc too.

anyways, if lived on a limited income and had no skills (pretty much my profile in my college days) i would move out of nyc, just like i did.
and just like toshi and bs suggest.

Because people in extreme poverty can just up and move on a whim? Is it really always that easy?

Also, don't we need workers in NYC too? Do you really think our economy can function without menial laborers in the big cities?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Because people in extreme poverty can just up and move on a whim? Is it really always that easy?

is it really hard????

not that am against a raise in the minimum wage in the US (am all for it actually). just expressing out my view on your point.

Also, don't we need workers in NYC too?

yes, but looking at it this way... the more lowly-paid workers moving out of nyc, the higher the salaries for those staying.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

is it really hard????

Sometimes, yes.

yes, but looking at it this way... the more lowly-paid workers moving out of nyc, the higher the salaries for those staying.

Actually, it probably wouldn't. It would mean that they got more money, but only because they had to work longer hours and harder because places would be short-staffed.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Sometimes, yes.

hard to believe if you are talking about external reasons only.
with the incredible easy access to credit americans have (whether they ****ed up their credit yet or not is a different story).

i find it hard you cannot come up with enough money to support your self for 1 month (unless you are an idiot with money).
i dont think an able bodied, american-born, english-speaking human would not find a job (at least to get by) while looking for something better in todays world after 1 month searching. (in the US of course).

Actually, it probably wouldn't. It would mean that they got more money, but only because they had to work longer hours and harder because places would be short-staffed.

that would kinda defeat a few well established laws of supply/demand.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

hard to believe if you are talking about external reasons only.
with the incredible easy access to credit americans have (whether they ****ed up their credit yet or not is a different story).

i find it hard you cannot come up with enough money to support your self for 1 month (unless you are an idiot with money).
i dont think an able bodied, american-born, english-speaking human would not find a job (at least to get by) while looking for something better in todays world after 1 month searching. (in the US of course).

Not when you are living day to day.

that would kinda defeat a few well established laws of supply/demand.

Really? Which ones? Oh, you think the demand for those jobs will be there, so employers will be forced to raise pay to bring in more workers? Somehow I don't see that happening for menial laborers.

 

[noname]

A man once said " the problem with the american worker is that he demands to be paid for his ego, not his ability". I find that statement to be all too true.
First off, the minimum wage, like the forty hour work week, is a union created government established fallicy. I don't know one single successful person in life who has limited themselves to fourty hours a week. Just because the government sets an arbitrary limit on hours to determine full time employment in no way establishes that a worker should be able to live comfortable just because he spends that much time at a place of employ. Most CEOs, lawers, doctors, small business owners, etc. spend far more than 40 hrs a week at work without complaint and likely have been that way their whole lives. It's the hourly workers who complain when asked to stay past their regular quitting time who aren't willing to put in the extra time it takes to get ahead. Aside from that education is the largest determiner of wages in the aggregate. Many people choose not to persue an education because it's too hard and/or it cuts into thier social lives. I've seen too many people drop out of school because they couldn't dedicate the time needed. I've seen many skip a higher education all together because they had a fairly comfortable job when they got out of high school and didn't see the need at the time.
As far as the assumption that those with an education are smart and therefore fortunate, nothing could be farther from the truth. For most it's damn hard work, determination, and the willingness to suffer for the chance to achieve big later.
As for saying that a janitor works as hard as a doctor, don't kid yourself. He may toil physically, but has not taken the time and effort to develop his human capital. The less skill and education required to do a job, generally the less it is worth. Yes, some may come from backrounds which made going to college easier, but there are too many programs out there designed to help those of modest means for that to be used as an excuse.
As far as raising the minimum wage goes, arbitrarily raising the cost of a good without an increase in demand will simply lead to a reduction in it's purchase. Employers will buy less labor at a higher cost. They will hire less people. This will lead to the termination of many who were only marginally hanging on to their jobs while shutting the door on many others who may have needed the job to develop marketable skills for future employment. This will also lead empoyers to find a way to get the work done with fewer people. Companies will develop mechanized solutions for some jobs or find more efficient ways to do things that were'nt needed before leading to a further cut.
The minimum wage is not a living wage, nor was it ever meant to be despite the claims of polititians. It is a starting point. An entry level. Minimum wage is for people with no other job skills. Most minimum wage earners receive their first pay raise within eight weeks. Most minimum wage earners live in households where the household income is above 40k a year. The largest percentage of minimum wage earners are teenagers.
Aside from all that, the people with the most interest behind the scenes in the minimum wage are labor unions and others whose wage contracts are directly linked to the minimum wage as a percentage. When the minimum wage goes up, so does thier salary. When their pay goes up so does the cost of the goods and services they produce, causing a slow creep in core inflation till we are eventually on the same level as before.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

As far as the assumption that those with an education are smart and therefore fortunate, nothing could be farther from the truth. For most it's damn hard work, determination, and the willingness to suffer for the chance to achieve big later.

Are you saying that anyone can be a doctor if they want, and if they fail they just didn't work hard enough? Do you think that everyone is born with the same abilities and same opportunities?

As for saying that a janitor works as hard as a doctor, don't kid yourself. He may toil physically, but has not taken the time and effort to develop his human capital. The less skill and education required to do a job, generally the less it is worth.

I'm not saying that a janitor should make as much as a doctor, but why should the janitor not make enough to live on? Yes, we need doctors, but don't we need janitors too?

Yes, some may come from backrounds which made going to college easier, but there are too many programs out there designed to help those of modest means for that to be used as an excuse.

And, they only work if people know about them.

The largest percentage of minimum wage earners are teenagers.

I don't know if I can dispute that, but go into a fast food place on a weekday at lunch during the school year and count how many teenagers are working there.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Most CEOs, lawers, doctors, small business owners, etc. spend far more than 40 hrs a week at work without complaint and likely have been that way their whole lives.

Do you really want to talk about CEOs? Businesses can't afford to pay higher minimum wage, or so they say, but they can afford to pay their CEOs 400+ times what the average person makes.

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/pay/index.cfm

And, that doesn't take into account stock options, bonuses, etc.

Or, maybe they work so hard they deserve it? And, maybe they work so hard they deserve to be paid much more money than you or I will ever see even after they stop working?

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/retirementsecurity/index.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_parachute

And, here's the story of Pfizer and Hank McKinnell, who did not do a good job, but still makes (after being replaced) more than you or I will ever see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_McKinnell

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_06/b3970063.htm