Missing the point

SCARY · Dec 8, 2004

Don't forget the demise in Boulder city.I'm with the Good Sinator ,this is much bigger than just Big Bear.This the first time I've ever considered to just stop racing.I'm sick of all the bull**** we've got to deal with and I don't understand why.I feel bad for all the small companies that this will affect.If I were one I would close up now.

LOOnatic · Dec 8, 2004

SCARY said:
Don't forget the demise in Boulder city.I'm with the Good Sinator ,this is much bigger than just Big Bear.This the first time I've ever considered to just stop racing.I'm sick of all the bull**** we've got to deal with and I don't understand why.I feel bad for all the small companies that this will affect.If I were one I would close up now.

I've been on the lamb lately but what "demise" happened in Boulder City?

Jimmy_Pop · Dec 8, 2004

Maybe racing as an organization needs to crash and burn inorder to get a fresh start. That hurts Pro riders who represent 1% of the riding population but does not greatly effect everybody cause there is always going to be mountians and grass roots racing and lots of riding to be done.

But law suits closing down resorts is a BIG threat to all of mountian biking. Long before i knew about internet forums, organized racing and much about todays modern MTB culture, i had a long travel bike and took vacation trips to Vail and other mountin resorts with my XC riding buddies.

Maybe since BB closed, those displaced riders will go to another mountain and increase their sales and allow them to affort the insurance.

joel

dhtahoe · Dec 8, 2004

Oh trust me I have not missed the point. Funny when BCD and I started to talk about starting and new sanctioning body ALOT of people thought were nuts. Alex and I have been racing since before the peak of the sport, watched it peak, then fall flat on it's face while NORBA sat and watched it happen... NORBA got cocky plain and simple. They used to CHALLANGE others to TRY and dethrone them. Now the NORBA monopoly is coming to an end and nobody has yet to take there place. With all the sue happy people in the U.S. it will be hard for anybody to do so, or want to for that matter. I remember how pissed NORBA was when I decided to not use them for the Northstar series. At one point they tried to tell me that without them it would fail. They even called the resort and tried to tell them what a risk they were taking not having NORBA insurance. Northstar has on average 3-4 claims EVERY winter, and since the bike park opened 9 years ago now and has had ONLY ONE claim. It was some cook on a rental bike that ran into some bright orange snow fencing and got cut. This is the ONLY reason they still are building real DH trails because not a single DH rider no matter how much they have broken themselves (and trust me I have seen some gross stuff) has sued the park. John Loomis the Mountains Ops manager is amazed by how bad people get hurt and still hav the balls to take responsibility for taking a bad line. Make my words my friends the first time one of us does it's gone just like Big Bear. My opinion if you are the kind of person that sues you not be doing these kinds of sports. Move to the mid-west where you can be fat and lazy just like the rest of them. Stay indoors where you decrease your chances of getting hurt. We met an 8 year old kid a Sea Otter last year when my g/f was jumping on a trampline who told her " If you fall on me my parents will sue". Dude 8 years old and the kid ALREADY has that kind of attitude. Sandhill, Calabassas, and Big Bear all in one season... DAMN. Everyone in this country want to be rich and live the good life. If they don't have the education or skill to do it the old fasion way (earn it) they will sue, marry, scam to become rich. Our government has made the middle-class go away an made it so hard for the working class to survive they all NEED to earn their money the new way. Sue somebody that has money.

stiksandstones · Dec 8, 2004

Topic is "missing the point"...after all the reading it sounds like people understand the huge ramifications of this legal cluster fuk.

This is so grim. It is not even about the "other" guy (ski resort) having the "balls" to say "screw all the risks, I want to have mountain biking at my resort". Meaning in most cases of ones downfall, others rise to the occasion and step up...other resorts cant do this, even if a corporate guy or the financial bottom line says MTB is good for the town/economy/skihill etc...

It could be the writing on the wall that says that this sport (DHing) just wasnt meant to be, in america anyway. I said this to a friend of mine and they said I was crazy and gave me the age old tired DH Ski excuse "look what an empire DH skiing is", well look at the history, the heritage of skiing! I say imagine if skiing started when DHing did, it would have the same massive hurdles DHing does.

DHing already was a renegade niche sport, but this bit of news can only do big harm. After 17 years in the bike business, I am leaving it so this sucks from a selfish persons standpoint

. I live 1.5 hr from Big Bear and was SOOOOOO looking forward to going up and riding with all my friends this summer. Hell I have one of Steve Peats old custom DH-i's that fits me great and was so excited about going to big bear and just riding, not having to worry about getting back to work at the races. But now I cant, unless I travel to mammoth or Utah, or???

Somebody f-ed up, somebody got hurt bad, somebody sued and we ALL lost. Ugh this blows hard!!!

Stikman

Frankenschwinn · Dec 8, 2004

dhtahoe said:
Oh trust me I have not missed the point. Funny when BCD and I started to talk about starting and new sanctioning body ALOT of people thought were nuts. Alex and I have been racing since before the peak of the sport, watched it peak, then fall flat on it's face while NORBA sat and watched it happen... NORBA got cocky plain and simple. They used to CHALLANGE others to TRY and dethrone them. Now the NORBA monopoly is coming to an end and nobody has yet to take there place. With all the sue happy people in the U.S. it will be hard for anybody to do so, or want to for that matter. I remember how pissed NORBA was when I decided to not use them for the Northstar series. At one point they tried to tell me that without them it would fail. They even called the resort and tried to tell them what a risk they were taking not having NORBA insurance. Northstar has on average 3-4 claims EVERY winter, and since the bike park opened 9 years ago now and has had ONLY ONE claim. It was some cook on a rental bike that ran into some bright orange snow fencing and got cut. This is the ONLY reason they still are building real DH trails because not a single DH rider no matter how much they have broken themselves (and trust me I have seen some gross stuff) has sued the park. John Loomis the Mountains Ops manager is amazed by how bad people get hurt and still hav the balls to take responsibility for taking a bad line. Make my words my friends the first time one of us does it's gone just like Big Bear. My opinion if you are the kind of person that sues you not be doing these kinds of sports. Move to the mid-west where you can be fat and lazy just like the rest of them. Stay indoors where you decrease your chances of getting hurt. We met an 8 year old kid a Sea Otter last year when my g/f was jumping on a trampline who told her " If you fall on me my parents will sue". Dude 8 years old and the kid ALREADY has that kind of attitude. Sandhill, Calabassas, and Big Bear all in one season... DAMN. Everyone in this country want to be rich and live the good life. If they don't have the education or skill to do it the old fasion way (earn it) they will sue, marry, scam to become rich. Our government has made the middle-class go away an made it so hard for the working class to survive they all NEED to earn their money the new way. Sue somebody that has money.

I live in the midwest. How many miles did you ride uphill last year? Stereotyping will get you nowhere. I agree with you that if you are not willing to take the responsibility for your own actions you should stay away from sports like mountain biking. Go golf or something... The point has been made to me that I don't know whether I would sue untill I was in a position to do so. I have been in that position and chose the high road and did not sue. Most people would sue given the opportunity. It sucks.

dhtahoe · Dec 8, 2004

200 miles a week on the road (rollers now that winter has hit) Oh wait was that a stereotype that because I race DH that I don't climb? Hey bud I have made my life about racing. Moved to the Sierra Nevadas to train at altitude, left my job in aviation, SURVIVED CANCER in between, and now that my fitness is returning to normal so I can race at a pro level I only to get to a party that's now become a funeral. The mid-west thing was a joke (sort of) Of all the places I have lived Ohio was the place where I saw soooo many lazy unfit people. I have to draw from personal experences that's all I have. Sorry for the stereotype... Vote Bush

seismic · Dec 8, 2004

It is still a mystery why people on the one hand want to do an extreme sport (as I see DH) and on the other hand end up sueing because they get hurt....if you do not want to get hurt, - stop riding and do something else. I think it is that simple...do not blame the layers, the system or the government (even though I find it tempting considering the present situation in the US), - but blame yourself !!! Sh#t up and RIDE your BIKE!!!

Frankenschwinn · Dec 8, 2004

dhtahoe said:
200 miles a week on the road (rollers now that winter has hit) Oh wait was that a stereotype that because I race DH that I don't climb? Hey bud I have made my life about racing. Moved to the Sierra Nevadas to train at altitude, left my job in aviation, SURVIVED CANCER in between, and now that my fitness is returning to normal so I can race at a pro level I only to get to a party that's now become a funeral. The mid-west thing was a joke (sort of) Of all the places I have lived Ohio was the place where I saw soooo many lazy unfit people. I have to draw from personal experences that's all I have. Sorry for the stereotype... Vote Bush

Some stereotypes are there for a reason. Man would I like me some chicken fried steak smothered in gravy. ummmm Hmmmmm.

hats off to you. I race and train but have not made my life about it. Sometimes I wish I had. But I digress. This lawsuit thing affects us here in Oklahoma too. When the newbies on their NEXT brand FS walmart bikes crash they sue the city and our local club. Our trails have had to be dumbed down so much they are not worth riding to keep them "Safe". Otherwise they have to be closed down so no one can ride. Sound familiar?

dhtahoe · Dec 8, 2004

seismic said:
It is still a mystery why people on the one hand want to do an extreme sport (as I see DH) and on the other hand end up sueing because they get hurt....if you do not want to get hurt, - stop riding and do something else. I think it is that simple...do not blame the layers, the system or the government (even though I find it tempting considering the present situation in the US), - but blame yourself !!! Sh#t up and RIDE your BIKE!!!

When I hit the Tractor at Northstar last year it was their fault for sure. For the two secs it crossed my mind to sue I just thought of the ass kicking I would have gotten if they shut down. I did learn something out of it. Always check out a blind jump before pinning it. As it turned out the tractor belonged to a sub-contractor. So I called the logging company told them what happened and they should be more careful. They were amazed that it wasn't a lawyer calling, and I wasn't sueing. They bought me a new helmet, uniform,and anything else damaged. The way it should have been handled!!!

Curb Hucker · Dec 8, 2004

Town couldnt be more right. The fattest, laziest, bunch of pricks make up most of the population in the midwest. Everyone is so damn lazy around here, and not to mention possibly even more sue crazy. Maybe not the MTBers but the general population is a bunch of ignorant fatasses

seismic · Dec 8, 2004

dhtahoe said:
When I hit the Tractor at Northstar last year it was their fault for sure. For the two secs it crossed my mind to sue I just thought of the ass kicking I would have gotten if they shut down. I did learn something out of it. Always check out a blind jump before pinning it. As it turned out the tractor belonged to a sub-contractor. So I called the logging company told them what happened and they should be more careful. They were amazed that it wasn't a lawyer calling, and I wasn't sueing. They bought me a new helmet, uniform,and anything else damaged. The way it should have been handled!!!

See, - I respect that way of dealing with problems !

dhtahoe · Dec 8, 2004

Ahhhhhh thank you... Let this be an example of how to be when you CHOOSE to partake in such sports. I have already told myself that if this happened to me I would roll my wheelchair into Lake Tahoe. I feel that me and my loved one's would suffer less if I were just gone and not rolling around helpless for the rest of my life. I'm come from a second generation RACE family I don't think anyone would stop me. Hell it wouldn't surprise me if one of them gave the final push. And not for taking the car without permission when I was 15.

GunShow? · Dec 8, 2004

In this particular case do you honestly think the guy is suing? In the statement on TBB web site, it clearly states:

"A major lawsuit has been filed against USA Cycling, Snow Summit, and Team Big Bear on behalf of an injured DH racer."

We could all have great intentions like you, but our medical insurance carriers might not. They will sue to get their money back for your medical bills. This is fact.

dhtahoe · Dec 8, 2004

Do you really think they have already paid him out 25 million, or ever will. And why do you pay insurance in the first place. For when these things happen. This new trend of the average joe doing "extreme" sports is not helping things. The point is that our country is now run by lawyers and insurance companies. I pay the same amount as a fit healthy person that's in shape vs. a fat ass do nothing poor eating slob. It should work the same way car insurance works. The better the driver you are the lower your rates are. It would be like me paying the same rate as a guy with 20 DUI's and a very bad driving record. When I went and priced med insurance all they asked me was my age and if I smoked. You pay your insurance hoping you never need it... then when you need it they try every way possible not to pay. Why do you think it's a growth industry.

GunShow? · Dec 8, 2004

I think we are saying the same thing. A good friend of mine almost died at BB on Westridge this summer. He was air lifted and spent 5 days in ICU. No one sued because it was and accident, but his meidcal bills were over $140,000. I am guessing that this guys medical bills were in the $500,000+ range. Both are amounts that you would think an insurance company would want to recover, and I believe that they have the right to recover if they can prove someone else caused or was at fault.

You said yourself that you are a cancer survivor. You are not a fat slob, or a smoker. I think we met in Tahoe at the race this last Sept. Someone with cancer or cancer survivor could be considered a risk to an insurance company and might not get coverage at all. Hopefully this is not the case with you, but I have a friend who has trouble getting health insurance because of a rare red blood cell disorder that isnt even life threatening.

My point is that as much as we all would like to think we have this control, sometimes we don't. If you hit that tractor and broke your neck, your insurance company could put NorthStar out of business. Don't always blame it on the participant. All the events that shut SS down might not have been the fault of the guy that was injured, and I think that most people that truly love the sport would never sue for fear of this.

Out of all the mtn bike resorts I have been to, I dont think any in the US could or would stay open if faced with a lawsuit the size that this one probably is.

We should all be concerned if this is or is becoming the standard operating procedure for insurance companies. They will ruin all the sports like Dhing or Freeriding and not care at all.

dhjill · Dec 8, 2004

GunShow? said:
In this particular case do you honestly think the guy is suing? In the statement on TBB web site, it clearly states:

"A major lawsuit has been filed against USA Cycling, Snow Summit, and Team Big Bear on behalf of an injured DH racer."

We could all have great intentions like you, but our medical insurance carriers might not. They will sue to get their money back for your medical bills. This is fact.

Not to the tune of 25 mill. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think an insurance company can sue for punitive damages on behalf of someone else.

nickaziz · Dec 8, 2004

Well this is sure a situation where free health care we have in canada pays off.

GunShow? · Dec 8, 2004

I should have made my point more clear. The fact that someone is suing on his behalf is what is scary to me.

25 million for a lifetime of paralysis isn't really that much regardless of the circumstances

Silver · Dec 8, 2004

dhjill said:
Not to the tune of 25 mill. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think an insurance company can sue for punitive damages on behalf of someone else.

Possible, maybe...do they take into account the likely increase in future health care costs (which are high for someone paralyzed?)

Between that, lost earnings, and legal costs, it might be a reasonable number.

bizutch · Dec 9, 2004

Jp...you need to quit whining and bring your dry weather ass back to the muddy, redneck mountains that birthed you. We don't sue cause we're too illiterate and even if we get sued, we're so poor there's no money to take from us....yeeeeehhhhhaaawww!!!! Bring Mullet Head Larry with you...he'll be your good luck Billy Ray Cyress charm and pull all the Camaro Hair's in like a bug zapper!

ÃX · Dec 15, 2004

this is VERY close to what is happaning to rally racing in the usa!

Both nitche sports that are far bigger in europe.

insurance got to exspensive for scca to continue
there rally program and dropped it. to many claims
makes it it high. so a promotion company rally america
takes over getting insurance from the SAME Co just
having a clean slate. Now rally is back on for 05 with
a better sanctioning body, cheeper entry fees and smart
people!

ALL IN 4 MONTHS!

It can be done.

bizutch · Dec 15, 2004

how's that project going bro?

ÃX · Dec 15, 2004

bizutch said:
how's that project going bro?

rally, great i plan on racing my first in feb 25th. i got a co driver localy, rebuilt motor and hookup to
wholesale sparco.

DHbro is stagnent and will never get enough
of my energy, sorry. time to move on.

other:, cool i didn't know you could highlight
the text to insert a link and it would fill the text
box for you.

SCARY · Dec 15, 2004

Great,I was sooo looking forward to racing with "mutipliers" and "differentials".At least I'd know what to be pissed off about with NORBA.-----"Yeah,at the last race,my sexy NON-mullet caused to much drag and I think it reduced the anticipated trajectory of my finish differential...and,uh ....yeah."Could I get a re-do based on the misscalculation of quantified evidence of using non-moisturizing conditioner?"

bizutch · Dec 15, 2004

SCARY said:
Great,I was sooo looking forward to racing with "mutipliers" and "differentials".At least I'd know what to be pissed off about with NORBA.-----"Yeah,at the last race,my sexy NON-mullet caused to much drag and I think it reduced the anticipated trajectory of my finish differential...and,uh ....yeah."Could I get a re-do based on the misscalculation of quantified evidence of using non-moisturizing conditioner?"

Mel Gibson called. He said you're breaking his Lethal Weapon mullet patent and is issuing a cease and desist order. On the bright side, the women folk down here just CAANT stop talkin' bout chu!!!

SCARY · Dec 16, 2004

It's actually somewhere between a short "Fabio" and Andy Gibb,circa 1979-ish.Don't hate the playa.Hate the mane.

bizutch · Dec 16, 2004

little thing called 'no job'. the company I worked for shut down....

SCARY · Dec 17, 2004

............and mah truck..fell apart...like a la-azy old ho-uund.Mah ol lady dun left me fer a feller in town.OOOoohh mamas'..don't let yer babies grow up and ride DH..i's.....Make-um buy Foes-ez and Turners and such......Their resales much better if ya don't wreckum...too much......Mama's don't let yer daughters get knocked up bah rednecks named "Butch"....They'll hurt-um and curse-um and their mullets you caint touch..........................

bizutch · Dec 17, 2004

Larry, you sure yo momma never took a trip down here and shacked up with a feller named Jerry Greene??? We might be related.

neaky:

Missing the point

Monkey

Not long enough

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

I LOVE NORBA!!!!

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

I LOVE NORBA!!!!

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

I LOVE NORBA!!!!

I am an idiot

Turbo Monkey

I LOVE NORBA!!!!

Chimp

I LOVE NORBA!!!!

Chimp

Monkey

Monkey

Chimp

find me a tampon

Delicate CUSTOM flower

Turbo Monkey

Delicate CUSTOM flower

Turbo Monkey

Not long enough

Delicate CUSTOM flower

Not long enough

Monkey

Delicate CUSTOM flower

Not long enough

Delicate CUSTOM flower