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MKIII too steep of a head angle

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by DHS, Sep 22, 2005.

  1. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    I have a MKIII Large frame. built up with X.9/XO drive train. crossmax xl wheels, thomson parts. Marzocchi All mtn 1. i have the fork setting at the full 6inches. and the head angle still feels too steep. i'm 5'11" 170lbs. all the suspension is setup correctly. i've had it for about 4months now. its only been on 4 rides...
    i like of the suspension feels front and rear, but the geometry just seems to suck. i use to have a Giant VT 18in frame with the same tt as this. so i thought it was a good swap. i ran a minute 2 on that.
    the rear shock on the MKIII is a 2inch stroke but is the 7.875 eye to eye. anyone think it would be ok to get a shock that was 7.5 eye to eye to slacken the head angle?

    thanks.
    Steve

    or if not. anyone want to trade frames for something else? the bike is pretty much brand new.
     

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  2. Jeremy R

    Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    Doesn't that bike have a 70 degree head angle with a 5 inch fork?
    That would mean with a tall AM1 your head angle should be around 69 or so. 69 is a great number and a sweet head angle for trailriding. ;)
    Are you using this bike more for freeride stuff?
     
  3. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    nope. just xc stuff. and maybe a 3 foot drop but thats it

    edit.. did a 3 foot drop one time to play with the suspension. other then that just long distance xc "all mtn" stuff
     
  4. Cant Climb

    Cant Climb Turbo Monkey

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    I'm pretty sure the MK is 7.5 X 2.0.......i looked at buying an MK, i think is geared a bit more toward the xc side of trail riding, which is what you do. Anything slacker isn't going to climb so well and handle the bar wide tights as well.....steep 5 inch bikes can climb the gnarliest nastinest stuff......thats the beauty, they're like goats....go anywhere, do anything....
     
  5. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    i understand that. but i would like it slacker. or something is just weird
     
  6. Cant Climb

    Cant Climb Turbo Monkey

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    ......maybe you're feeling the "Pole Vault" effect. In slow xc stuff if your in and out of small holes or up and over alot medium sized rocks i think the 6 inch might a little unweildly......if you ran the bike slammed with a 5 incher it would have more power and control in most xc terrain..

    ..6 inch on that bike seems a bit tallish and i see alot of 5 inch bikes with big forks on them......i think that is weird.....i like running a low front end with more travel in the back and more sag, running an extra travel fork in the front is taking away from the overall performance and making the bike only good on specific trails.....

    not sure this helps.....i tried though....
     
  7. Castle

    Castle Turbo Monkey

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    I felt the same way on my heckler, I could never get use to it, always felt like I was going over the bars at high speed off of jumps or small drops with rough landings, which are littered all over the trails here.

    I was using a '05 z.1 150mm and just like you, the bike just never felt right. I dont' know if it was a combination of the seat tube angle and head angle or what. It climbed nicely but that's not all I road with it.

    I would like to try a 4x bike for this application, I think some of them have the angles that might keep me happy.

    Sounds like you are looking for a different bike.

    How about trying a larger tire in the front then in the back?
     
  8. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    yea castle tried that. i just think the geometry must be off.
    really like the dw-link though.

    anyone want to trade frames?
     
  9. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    The 2005 MKiii has a 68.96 degree head angle with the Marzocchi AM1 on it. This is definitely not a "steep" geometry as far as numbers go.

    You said you are riding a large frame, 21"? I ride a 17" and I am just a hair under 6' tall. Based on that, I suggest that you consider a shorter stem. I ride mine with a Manitiou Nixon Platinum and a 90mm stem. The Platinum has the same 140mm of travel that the AM1 has. Really, you should be on a shorter frame than the 21". The 19" would be better, but you would want to run a 70mm stem or so to start on that for your size.

    The bike is 1/2 dergree slacker for 06. It is geared more towards the XC side of trail riding. There is a new 6" frame coming called the Type 6 geared more towards the All Mountain side.

    All in all though, the head angle is not your problem unless the frame is defective, which is highly unlikely, but I guess not totally impossible.

    Hope this helps

    Dave
     
  10. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    Oh yeah, also, the bike has a 7.5X2 shock on it. There is no shorter shock that you can put on the frame. You cannot mess with shock lengths on dw-link frames. They are designed to have specific acceleration and braking properties at certain points in the travel. Changing the shock lengths moves the curves and wont let the dw-link work optimally.

    Dave
     
  11. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    sorry i thought the large was the 19" frame thats what i have..
    i'll try a shorter stem
     
  12. klunky

    klunky Turbo Monkey

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    Hi DW,

    I have got a MKIII on order for myself. I was intending to reduce the shock eyelet just a little bit before I read your post about how it will make the DW link less optimal.
    I have spoken to Tim Flooks about the shock reduction and he says he did it to sams 4X bike at frot william no problems. I just want to lower the BB hight and slacken the H/A a fraction.
    what sort of issues will I notice? Surely the position of the shock through its travel can not have any effect on the braking?

    I think I will try riding it for a while before I change the setup.
     
  13. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    Sam's bike is used for pedaling on a downhill grade and we set him up with a 36T ring, which optimized the anti-squat curve for 4X racing (down hill). His bike has reduced travel, it runs about 105mm instead of 127mm.

    If you shorten the eye to eye on a MKiii, you cannot keep the same amount of travel. You have to reduce travel. Otherwise there will be metal to metal contact with the frame and links.

    The instant center movement is linked to shock compresion, and that governs braking performance, so if you start off with your suspension partially compressed, it changes what was planned originally. Don't get me wrong, the braking will still be very good, better than most frames, but just not the same as factory designed . There will eb abhuge amount of info on this in a week's time whent he new dw-link.com launches.

    dw
     
  14. MMcG

    MMcG Ride till you puke!

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    Will this Type 6 be a mid 2006 release or will it be a 2007 model????
     
  15. klunky

    klunky Turbo Monkey

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    Dave,

    I have sent you an email to the DW link web page addy.
     
  16. OGRipper

    OGRipper Turbo Monkey

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    Hey DHS how is that AM 1 working out for you? Thinking about getting one of those or maybe the SL.

    (Sorry for the hijack, but we all know DW and Iron Horse roXors the soXors or whatever... :p )
     
  17. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    i love it, other then when i bought it. it came broken from marzocchi.... the TST valve is NOT allowed to have any air in it at all or something like that. so the thing felt like ****.
    now works beautifully
     
  18. Biscuit

    Biscuit Turbo Monkey

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    Is this actually going to happen? Bout time.

    Question: Does chainring size noticably affect the suspension? What size is the Sunday designed for?
     
  19. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    It is actually going to happen, it seems like an eternity since we took the first site down. There will be two versions of the site. The first goes up around next Wednesday. Then a more interactive version will go up a few weeks later. The site goes into a lot of detail about how and why dw-link does what it does, and the things that make it so different than any other vehicle suspension system ever built before it. There is just so much information to go through, it took a long time to figure out how to distill it all into information that is easily digested.

    We will be doing dw-link seminars at the Show on Wednesday and Thursday at the Iron Horse booth (booth 2049) at 2PM, and there will be a lot of in formation including flyers and some video footage showing how it all works. Its an exciting tiome for me. 5 years in the making!

    For a Sunday, chainring size definitely changes anti-squat performance under acceleration. The Sunday is optimized for a downhill grade and a 38T chainring, so running a 36T or 40T is no problem.
     
  20. MMcG

    MMcG Ride till you puke!

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    dw - what about this new 6 and 6 bike? will it be a late 2006 addition to the IH lineup?
     
  21. Biscuit

    Biscuit Turbo Monkey

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    Big congradulations on that.

    This is interesting. I actually commented to a friend the other day, that the bike climbs like crap (as all downhill bikes do), but pedals excellent once it get's going (i.e. downhill).
     
  22. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    Its a secret... hahaaha

    No its not really a secret. Most people know that there has been a 6&6 bike called the Type 6 being tested since before Sea Otter. Its not an 06 frame, it will just be ready when its ready I guess. Thats not really my area.

    Most people don't know about the SSO. A custom short travel DH bike based on the Type 6 built for Sam Hill at Sea Otter last year. It never made it to the race in time, it was a week late, and the custom 6" air Boxxer that RockShox made special for it went on another rider's bike. That frame will be at Interbike. There are 2 in the world. It weighs 34.5 lbs with a regular Boxxer Ride, stupid light with the air Boxxer.
     
  23. dw

    dw Wiffle Ball ninja

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    Thanks a lot, it feels like a big weight has been lifted. I have been wanting to share all this for years, literally, and I have in pieces, but its great to finally have the whole cohesive story in less than 1 million words.

    Fire a 32T ring on that thing and some XC tires! :)
     
  24. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    Mtbr.com write up from 2005 interbike. MKIII

    Iron Horse MKIII- Manitou Nixon Platinum/5th Element Air (6x5"). I did not like this bike much. The head angle seemed very steep and combined with very wide bars and an incompliant suspension; it made for a twitchy ride. It was a challenge holding speed through the technical sections with the somewhat nervous, squirrelly handling. The Nixon had a bit of a top-out knock in it and the 5th Air rear rode harshly despite being at the lower end of the CVT range. The whole bike seemed to skitter down the trail. Pedaling manners were actually good overall, but traction was not great due to the harsh rear end. I really wonder how this bike would ride with an RP3 or DHX Air. The ride just seemed woefully under-damped and so not very plush. I was looking forward to a DW-link bike but I was stymied by some poor shocks, I think. I'll try to get my mitts on a 7point7 and see if the trend continues. The similarly executed Reign definitely had a much more refined ride. I also did not care for the color, I hate integrated headsets, and the El Caminos were so-so. Sorry, but pass. Oh, the guys at the Iron Hose booth were royal @ssholes to boot. Run away.

    so i'm not the only one that feels this way... ska-todd needs to be nicer to folks that arn't as "bright" as he is.
     
  25. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    yea i want to keep my MKIII. love the design. just trying to get it to fit better.
    just ordered 2 stems to figure it out. running a 110mm thomson. have a 90mm and a 100mm thomson coming to play with it.
    will say the Raceface deus X-type BB is junk. went to the fsa cheap external bearing bb and have had no issues.
     
  26. Cant Climb

    Cant Climb Turbo Monkey

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    any bike i have had where i experimented at end with different bars, stems, fork heights etc........final conclusion was always that it just wasnt the right bike for me........

    You're stressed over this.......sell it and move on......there are tons of proven 5 inch bikes on the market......
     
  27. zmtber

    zmtber Turbo Monkey

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    i think the jamis xlt is the closes thing to an xc bike that you can use for a dh trail bike....or check out the nomad "just crank down the suspension"
     
  28. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    yea not really stressing. would like to try to fit it better. if not, sure is gonna be hard to sell the frame and buy a new 5" frame. that will be a pain.
     
  29. frorider

    frorider Monkey

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    don't worry, you're not crazy--i've heard similar comments on the mk III HA being a little steep. matter of preference i guess. anyone know the HA of a yeti 575 / pike 140mm setting?
     
  30. klunky

    klunky Turbo Monkey

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    the person who rode this bike did not set it up correctly. I have ridden both the MKIII comp and expert the bikes are crazy plush and track the ground like no other bike.
    Iron Horse are renound for good C/S. Perhaps when this person told them how "poor" he thought the bike was he got a negative responce?
     
  31. BMXman

    BMXman I wish I was Canadian

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    Hey DHS if you do decide to sell the 19" frame I would be very interested. I'm currently on a 17" and I would prefer a bit larger frame....but I need the green:D...D
     
  32. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    oh i have my suspension setup right. love it. thats why i wanted to keep it. but geometry isn't working out
     
  33. Jeremy R

    Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    It is not the head angle though. Or the angles at all really.
    I own a 5-spot which for me is the perfect trail bike, and if you look at the numbers on the MKiii, they are pratically identical.
    Maybe it is the wrong size frame or something.
    If I were you, I would ride the pizz out of it for a while, and then make up my mind. I don't think you would want anything slacker for a 5 inch trail bike.
     
  34. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    i WAS just looking today and theres a 5-spot that would fit me. and no the numbers are different. the 5-spot is a little more layed back.

    and yes my frame is the Green Expert. its the only thing that is able to match the desert color of my zoke allmtn1
     
  35. Biscuit

    Biscuit Turbo Monkey

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    I've learned to take anything on mtbr... or advise posted anywhere, for that matter, with a grain of salt.

    We don't know this guys riding style, what bike he's used to, what terrain he's used to, etc. If your from Santa Cruz, and you go ride bootleg, pretty much anything will be sketchy untill you get used to it.

    Bars too low/high, different tires, and (most importantly) shock setup could've been major contributors to his bad experience. I ride a sunday, which I have nothing but good things to say about, and I've had great experiences with IH customer service (shock pins and re-valving).

    In addition to that, I just built up a small '04 hollowpoint for my Mom (she's not agressive, but super excited to give it a try). It took me a while to get the shock dialed in, but I was pretty impressed with the feel (although it was waaaaaay too small for me) and couldn't believe how well the thing pedaled. My friend, a half-roadie, who rides an enduro, and works in a bike shop, threw a leg over it and sprinted away exclaiming: "Holy crap! This thing pedals awesome!" while still riding a stand-up wheelie.

    If you scour mtbr reviews, you are bound to find rave reviews for a product that you hate, as well as poor reviews for products that you love.

    Actually, just yesterday I stopped by a bike shop to check out the Giant Reign (pretty nice by the way), and one of the employees was trying to convince me that his Giant AC, set up with a longer rear shock for better ground clearance, was one of the most capable bikes he's ever ridden. Personally, I dislike the AC design. And I setup my bikes so that they will actually corner. He was trying to convince me that bb height makes almost no difference in cornering. He was big and fat, so, to him it may not.

    It just bothered me that a guy like that was working in a reputable bike shop giving customers advise on bike setup.
     
  36. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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    biscuit i was just "trying" to point out that he notice the steep head angle feel of the bike. and ska-todd can be evil sometimes. :p
    other then that i like the suspension. but the bike just doesn't seem to fit. hopefully next week i'll be able to ride a 17" and see how that feels.
     
  37. klunky

    klunky Turbo Monkey

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    Well I guess Todd may not be perect after all!! He always answers my emails instantly and comes accross as a sound and helpfull bloke who spends time answering questions for monkeys in a simple yet thorough way.
     
  38. Jimmy_Pop

    Jimmy_Pop Turbo Monkey

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  39. DHS

    DHS Friendly Neighborhood Pool Boy

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  40. klunky

    klunky Turbo Monkey

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    I dont understand how Norco manage to sell bikes with there geoms. Even there Team Dh has vertical head angle. I guess Shore riders must love them.