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Moderate Gun Control?

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
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SF
I've enjoyed gun debates because I think it can be a more factually based discussion than let's say gay rights or abortion.

One thing is while defining my opinions, I became a gun owner. I started with a home defense Mossberg, then a Glock and a Mini-14. I do shoot regularly, and of course, I enjoy it. And I am planning on using my weapons to defend myself if necessary.

But when I wade in the gun control argument, I find both sides to be totally blind to reason.

For example, I mentioned to a strongly anti-gun Oakland person how an elderly man in Berkeley Hills was killed by a psychotic 23 year old man when the cops were delayed in their response, and she responded how the man had no chance anyway, and he could have gotten a kitchen knife instead of a gun.

And you can imagine when I debate gun control with pro-gun advocates, I might as well be Eric Holder at the doorstep with a seizure order.

With the pro-gun people, I have only one comment (besides my usual trolling), which is whenever I hear about a tragedy involving a shooting, the response which I think is unacceptable is doing absolutely nothing. And when I'm told I'm naive about gun laws, all I can do is shake my head.

I think there are some gun controls which both are effective and might have a chance of approval from the NRA and their minions, such as enforcing straw purchases better, tighter control of gun shops, and banning higher capacity magazines.

But most gun laws are stupid. Like the new attempt in California to ban the bullet button, a workaround to the fixed magazines. The bullet button has been involved with no killings at all.

I think the Assault Weapon Ban is idiotic, banning semi-auto rifles with detachable magazines and two features like pistol grips and barrel shrouds. What would be effective is banning all semi-auto rifles with 5+ round capacity firing any caliber larger than 22LR. Mention it to a gun nut, and I might have said repeal the 2nd Amendment.

I haven't read a case where a semi-auto rifle firing 5.56 or larger caliber was used in personal defense (I have read a case in Oregon where a 22 AR-copy was used).

But the liberal side is not exempt either. I read George Constanza's attempt at constitutional legal interpretation, and one article praising Brazil's raids into the slums, failing to mention the very questionable legality and how the World Cup plays into it.

Mostly, I like to see the hostility being dialed down between the two sides so we can find a decent solution.
 
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AngryMetalsmith

Business is good, thanks for asking
Jun 4, 2006
14,278
2,122
I have no idea where I am
It's not the laws or the guns that are the real problem it's the mindset of those involved. We have a fundamental disfunction in the "good 'ole USofA". We are a culture that is driven by fear, paranoia, and ignorance. Other industrialized countries have gotten along just fine without having nearly as many guns as we do. Why is that ?
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
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SF
It's not the laws or the guns that are the real problem it's the mindset of those involved. We have a fundamental disfunction in the "good 'ole USofA". We are a culture that is driven by fear, paranoia, and ignorance. Other industrialized countries have gotten along just fine without having nearly as many guns as we do. Why is that ?
I accept that we have a frontier/Wild West perspective on hunting and self defense.

I do support the right to own guns. If you want to hunt or shoot for sport, that's cool, and there are plenty of self-defense usage which no one has the right to infringe upon.

If you think about a country like Switzerland, which has chosen a path of neutrality, their high gun ownership is not a problem. However, statistics have shown that England gun crimes gone up since handguns were banned in 1997, although I think it is too simplistic to say, ban guns then only criminals will have guns. As I would expect, many of these shootings are gang related.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
26,877
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Riding the baggage carousel.
Seriously though, do you really expect such a thing to even be possible? I think AngryMetalSmith lays it out fairly well. Teh gun totting right is so scared of it's own shadows that anything even-kind-of-sort-of resembling regulation is treated as if it's the breaking of the seventh seal. IMHO the UK model works pretty well but I have literally been told that that's the reason England is such an oppressive regime. :rolleyes:
 
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Pisgahboy

Chimp
Apr 23, 2011
8
0
I can't argue with that one. Three guys, presumably all 20 years old, vs a 57 year old with a AR-15 with a 30 round mag.
Can't remember exactly where I was but I overheard a conversation about some guy's son who had bought an AR type for home defense in his apartment. All I did was just listen to this thinking that his son had zero understanding of that rifle and it's capabilities.

Certainly hope we don't hear about all the collateral damage that fit of genius would cause.
 
In a home defense situation against multiple intruders, an AR would be the tool of choice. Magazine capacity, higher energy projectile, and more accurate/stable firing platform. A 10.5" barrel is mighty handy in the confines of an indoor environment. As with any firearm, one should be aware of overpenetration. But with 5.56, a good HP, duty ammo will minimize that compared to ball.

Of course, mindset, marksmanship, and weapons manipulation need to honed by quality training and practice. Americans still hold dear the 2nd amendment, but a great many own firearms without the important training and sense of grave responsibility.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
12,644
660
Front Range, dude...
Oh for Gods sake...go ahead and spray 5.56 all over and through your house, neighborhood and loved ones. Too much penetration for me. And a 10.5 barrel for CQB? No. Any weapon you have to handle with both hands is too big for that application.

You want home defense? Start with quality locks on your doors and windows, a couple big territorial dogs, a cel phone in your bedroom, a high quality flashlight and a pump action 12 gauge. You hear dogs barking you call 911, grab up the light a rack a round very loudly. Dominate the area with bright white light and command very loudly that they can take anything they want and the Cops have been called, but if they come towards the light they will die.

Oh yeah, get low and hold the light high...
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
21,992
1,679
In my pants
It's not the laws or the guns that are the real problem it's the mindset of those involved. We have a fundamental disfunction in the "good 'ole USofA". We are a culture that is driven by fear, paranoia, and ignorance. Other industrialized countries have gotten along just fine without having nearly as many guns as we do. Why is that ?
Because the NRA has programmed gun BUYERS into believing anything the gun MANUFACTURERS who pay the NRA want them to believe.












BOO!
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
I think there are some gun controls which both are effective and might have a chance of approval from the NRA and their minions, such as enforcing straw purchases better, tighter control of gun shops, and banning higher capacity magazines.
The NRA's idea of "moderate gun control" is when the 14 year old girl holds the .357 with *two* hands instead of just one.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
36,246
2,977
Sleazattle
Can't remember exactly where I was but I overheard a conversation about some guy's son who had bought an AR type for home defense in his apartment. All I did was just listen to this thinking that his son had zero understanding of that rifle and it's capabilities.

Certainly hope we don't hear about all the collateral damage that fit of genius would cause.
I know a bunch of doctor/lawyer types that have been convinced that they need a $7K+ AR style rifles and/or large caliber sniper rifles for home defense. It has been popular enough that a specialty gun shop opened up back in my old smallish town in Virginia that specializes in high end military style weapons. These are all for wealthy types who live in low crime gay-ted communities, not even sport shooters. I cannot think of one realistic scenario where guns like these would be needed.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
I know a bunch of doctor/lawyer types that have been convinced that they need a $7K+ carbon road bikes and/or deep dish carbon wheels for Sunday group rides. It has been popular enough that a specialty bike shop opened up back in my old smallish town in Virginia that specializes in high end bike gear. These are all for wealthy types who live in out of shape communities, not even racers. I cannot think of one realistic scenario where bikes like these would be needed.
Fixed that for comparison. My guess is "home defense" is just another justification for them to get whatever toys they wanted to play with anyway...
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
36,246
2,977
Sleazattle
Fixed that for comparison. My guess is "home defense" is just another justification for them to get whatever toys they wanted to play with anyway...
Yeah but your kid isn't going to accidentally blow the neighbors head off with a road bike. I guess I am a little sensitive to the subject as I went to high-school with 2 kids that were accidentally killed playing with home defense weapons and another that slaughtered his whole family with one.
 

Pisgahboy

Chimp
Apr 23, 2011
8
0
I know a bunch of doctor/lawyer types that have been convinced that they need a $7K+ AR style rifles and/or large caliber sniper rifles for home defense. It has been popular enough that a specialty gun shop opened up back in my old smallish town in Virginia that specializes in high end military style weapons. These are all for wealthy types who live in low crime gay-ted communities, not even sport shooters. I cannot think of one realistic scenario where guns like these would be needed.
They've got the money, they can afford the toys. I've got no issue with that. My previous comment was directed at those folks who don't care to take the time and effort to consider what the consequences will be if the need to defend themselves ever arises. Once the trigger is pulled, you can't take it back. Unless one is protected by some sort of castle doctrine/stand-your-ground laws, you are likely in for a very expensive legal nightmare.

So you know where I stand, I am 100% pro Second Amendment. That said, firearms do carry a weighty responsibility which many gun owners don't take the time to consider. Having a carry permit is not a license to be Dirty Harry. You've got to use your head more than you use your shooting skills if you exercise your right to carry. It's not a video game. There is no reset button. I've been in one situation where I thought I was going to have to draw a weapon on someone. I don't care to repeat it anytime soon.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
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SF
They've got the money, they can afford the toys. I've got no issue with that. My previous comment was directed at those folks who don't care to take the time and effort to consider what the consequences will be if the need to defend themselves ever arises. Once the trigger is pulled, you can't take it back. Unless one is protected by some sort of castle doctrine/stand-your-ground laws, you are likely in for a very expensive legal nightmare.

So you know where I stand, I am 100% pro Second Amendment. That said, firearms do carry a weighty responsibility which many gun owners don't take the time to consider. Having a carry permit is not a license to be Dirty Harry. You've got to use your head more than you use your shooting skills if you exercise your right to carry. It's not a video game. There is no reset button. I've been in one situation where I thought I was going to have to draw a weapon on someone. I don't care to repeat it anytime soon.
The question I have to anyone reasonable is what does 100% pro 2nd Amendment mean?

Does that mean I should have access to M60 full-auto machine guns? I could go on with a long list of gotchas, but I hope you get the point.

A law I strongly support is the one-handgun-a-month purchase law (CCW holders excluded). It would help to control straw purchases, the source of many Saturday Night Specials.

Or improved serial number tracking. Or tighter regulation of gun shops.

None of these things are covered under the 2nd Amendment.
 

Pisgahboy

Chimp
Apr 23, 2011
8
0
The question I have to anyone reasonable is what does 100% pro 2nd Amendment mean?

Does that mean I should have access to M60 full-auto machine guns? I could go on with a long list of gotchas, but I hope you get the point.

A law I strongly support is the one-handgun-a-month purchase law (CCW holders excluded). It would help to control straw purchases, the source of many Saturday Night Specials.

Or improved serial number tracking. Or tighter regulation of gun shops.

None of these things are covered under the 2nd Amendment.
For me it means the right to keep and bear arms. That's pretty much it.

As far the the M60m goes, automatic weapons, short barreled rifles, suppressors/silencers, etc. are all regulated by the NFA. You can own one or more of the items addressed by the NFA provided you jump through the hoops and pay the fees. More BS than I care to deal with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

Firearm laws vary from state to state. I know here in NC you are limited on the amount of handgun purchase permits you can get at one time. I'm not sure what the numbers are as I've got my CHP so I don't have to deal with purchase permits any more. Oddly, the county sheriff signs off on the purchase permits and can deny a person for basically any reason if they so choose. Since NC is a "shall issue" state with regards to concealed handgun permits, if you pass all the checks the sheriff is required by law to sign off on the permit. That seems kind of silly to me but that's how it works here.

Most of the gun folks I know do a bunch of selling and trading. Personally, I like to have a bill of sale for both parties with all the pertinent info as well as the proper permits. Keeps things from biting me later if there is a problem. That's a bit more than what is required here in NC. (funny story in that I sold a pistol to a buddy, it got stolen, he lost his copy of the receipt, I provided the constabulary with a copy of my copy and the thief got to spend a few months in jail. paperwork can be a plus sometimes) In SC, you aren't required to have any of that stuff. All you have to do is hand someone the money and they give you the gun. Person to person sales are all but unregulated. Basically if you are a SC resident, you can buy a gun from any other SC resident. Another fine example of how laws vary from state to state. Any transaction that crosses state lines is supposed to be handled by a FFL holder. Because it crosses state lines, it becomes a federal issue instead of a state issue. That's the law.

I don't know if this eloquent prose addresses all your points, but, I hope it sheds a bit of light on your latter two concerns.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
12,644
660
Front Range, dude...
The big ticket item, to me anyway, is that 2d Amendment lovers cling to a document written before the advent of machine guns, high powered rifles and concealable high capacity pistols. The Founding Fathers had no idea when they wrote the Constitution that it would develop this way, just like they couldnt foresee things like however many million Americans there are, welfare and health care issues, abortion and homosexual rights. Even though the Constitution was designed to be allowed to grow and evolve, the special interest groups are determined to only allow it to evolve the way they want it to...no matter which group we are referring to.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
Noted on facebook today:

so normally i go to the bank of america on 34th and 5th, just below the empire state building, this morning at 8:45 i decided to go to the one on 41st instead....
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
what a missed opportunity to demonstrate how much safer NYC streets could be if everyone could throw down in an impromptu fire fight
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
what a missed opportunity to demonstrate how much safer NYC streets could be if everyone could throw down in an impromptu fire fight
No need - with strict gun control - some of lowest since NYC started started keeping stats. Crime is at its lowest in 4-5 decades across the country despite the deep recession and larger population. Guns don't make you safer.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
Turns out the NYPD have very poor gun control. Bloomberg said officers fired 14 shots during the shootout and the two officers may have wounded most of the injured bystanders. The suspect was hit three times.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
Turns out the NYPD have very poor gun control. Bloomberg said officers fired 14 shots during the shootout and the two officers may have wounded most of the injured bystanders. The suspect was hit three times.
There's your problem. If it had been two god-fearing patriots with CCW permits they would have hit the gunman 16 times with 14 bullets, zero bystanders would have been injured, and then it would have started raining lollipops, bibles and promise rings.

Truth.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
There's your problem. If it had been two god-fearing patriots with CCW permits they would have hit the gunman 16 times with 14 bullets, zero bystanders would have been injured, and then it would have started raining lollipops, bibles and promise rings.

Truth.
Turns out that the NYC cops have 8lb or even 12lb trigger pulls??!? Maybe I was right after all...

article said:
The killer didn't shoot at police, but the police shot him and 9 other people. The shooter murdered his old boss and didn't fire at anyone else. It sounds like Bloomberg and the other people running NYC hate guns SO much that they don't even want their officers adequately trained.

The NYPD's handguns have triggers on their guns that are OVER 12 pounds to fire. The most important item for accuracy, after proper grip/purchase, is trigger control. It's very hard to control a sub 2 pound gun with a 13 pound trigger. The hoplophobia rampant in NYC has now almost cost 9 people their lives at the hands of New York's Finest.

I am a certified pistol instructor, and I know poor training when I see it. I've taught 70 year olds how to shoot fist sized groups rapid fire at 20 feet. This is without advanced training, just the fundamentals.

Every article I've read on the subject seems to point to a systemic problem within the NYPD with regards to firearms training. NYC has the seventh largest standing army in the world and quite possibly the poorest firearms curriculum as well.
Oooooops.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
so it would have started raining lollipops and promise rings?

i love lollipops....tootsie roll please...
Considering the terminal velocity of large objects like lollipops, rings, and bibles - likely more dangerous than small arms fire...