[iRider]

watch out for pumptracks

(check that mtbr link I posted if you didn't)

I've only had one fox fullface. One concussion on a pretty moderate fall and the thing literally coming unglued everywhere is all I needed to know about fox

Yeah, was aware of that. Came out after I bought mine. :-(

I ride pumptrack with a pisspot or a XC lid, so no chance I can break the chin bar.

The Fox Flux XC lid is solid for years now. In contrast to the A1, the pads and silicon grippers did not come unglued. While the TLD was the higher quality helmet by initial feel, the Fox withstood the test of time better.

I assume a Fox DH helmet gave you the concussion? Did it crack during the crash? A friend had a concussion in his Fox MX helmet and it seemed to not have absorbed the impact. Maybe the design for different speeds theory holds water?

 

[Gary]

If I'm still able to sprint a short distance at 15mph which helmet should I buy if I take up running? Kerbs be tricky yo!

I'd have though everyone here has been around long enough and has enough common sense not to put their trust in a weak ass polystyrene transforma-lid when riding requires a full face helmet

 

[canadmos]

when riding requires a full face helmet

How do you make that judgement call?

Through my eyes, riding local trails is no different than DH. On local trails, you're often going way faster as you know the trails like the back of your hand, they are sometimes no less technical and I find they are much more narrow. Screw up on one of these and you're toast.

Whereas sometimes with DH, the trails are "safer" - as in much wider and have been refined over time by thousands of riders going down them. And if it's a new trail, you're probably not going balls to the wall right away on it.

Personally I haven't worn a full face since like 2019. I remember the day at Saint Anne, having to climb this stupid hill in the building sun with that helmet either on the dome or swing from the bars. Did one lap and then put on the Enduro half shell. Never really went back...

 

[toodles]

I've got a TLD Stage and a carbon D3 but the D3 is so old and hasn't got MIPS so its probably less safe than the Stage at this point. I used the Stage for the last DH race I did and wasn't too fussed.

I used to use a demountable chinguard style for the long enduros (prior to the lightweight fullface fad) and of those I think the Bell Super DH was only one I really thought was made well.

 

[Gary]

How do you make that judgement call?

Pretty easily really.

I don't wear a helmet at all 99% of the time I ride a bike. The bulk of my riding now is a fairly long commute on either road, or a mix of off-road and urban riding kept fresh by switching between my roadbike and DJ style hardtail (or if I'm particularly tired or the weather is particularly horrendous a FS Emtb) This alone makes up around 10hrs actual riding time each week so skews that precentage somewhat. but I also never wear one for any local riding. Local (from the door) mtb is mainly fairly flat natural XC style woodland singletrack and farmland riding with the odd jump or big natural featureless hills. There's tons of good roadrideing from the door too. and yeah. I don't wear one for that either. I don't ever wear one if riding with my kids or GF no matter where we ride..Infact the only time I actually do wear a helmet at all is descending on steep/technical/fast DH/enduro style trails. (helmet is strapped securely to my bars after each descent and not worn again until the beginning of the next descent)
As for when to choose a full face. I always wear a full face when riding uplifted. It's the only time I do. (but that isn't very often anymore).
I wear a helmet so seldom that if I were to wear even an XC lid for anything except a descent it'd probably feel as bad to me as that full face did for you in Mt St Anne. I run hot and am always the one wearing the least amount of riding kit (bare arms, no gloves etc,) no matter what the weather in any group ride and pretty much haven't ever worn a jacket. (the one exception is Emtb commuting in cold wet weather as my HR barely ever gets above aerobic zone)

 

[Leafy]

Damn Gary, you should probably flip your helmet use. Road riding kills.

 

[canadmos]

Wow no helmet...I mean it's your head



Our group of friends luckily always wears a helmet when out for a town cruise. It probably won't happen, but one smack of the noggin off concrete and yeah...we all know how that turns out.

Same goes for trail rides. If we get someone new out and they show up without a helmet, we try to find them something to wear. Granted different there, we a noob rider, but still...if something happens (it probably won't, but what if), they'll be glad to be wearing it.

 

[Gary]

I get you guys concern. So thanks for not getting preachy.

as for road riding, even after 40 odd years of close passes on the road I still believe road riding to be fairly safe. I'm not sure how well a miniscule polystyrene will help an impact between a 1 ton+ vehicle travelling at 50mph. but yeah. Not all accudents involve moving objects and I'd obviously prefer a little polystyrene cushioning in a concrete headbutt.
*shrugs*

 

[kidwoo]

Maybe the design for different speeds theory holds water?

maybe fox builds garbage fullfaces which is why I said it earlier

Both moto and mtb/bmx are building helmets for both slow and fast, hard impacts now. You don't need to choose.

I had an xc fox helmet too, and like you zero complaints. My fullface didn't give me a concussion but it sure didn't prevent it. Literally of every fullface helmet I've ever owned, it was by far the worse in terms of build quality, durability and hence via suspicion based on those first two, safety.

 

[iRider]

maybe fox builds garbage fullfaces which is why I said it earlier

Both moto and mtb/bmx are building helmets for both slow and fast, hard impacts now. You don't need to choose.

I had an xc fox helmet too, and like you zero complaints. My fullface didn't give me a concussion but it sure didn't prevent it. Literally of every fullface helmet I've ever owned, it was by far the worse in terms of build quality, durability and hence via suspicion based on those first two, safety.

So avoid Fox FF helmets you say? Got it! That is what I am doing after the Proframe dies (and hopefully I am not). Like I wrote, I use it as a helmet for harder trails not full on DH, even on easy "local" DHs I prefer the D2 over it.

 

[norbar]

If it passes the SAME test and certification, just take a guess....
How much the test simulates the real world situation is on you to judge.

My point still stands although you don't want to hear it. Part of the safety of a helmet is how well it sits and stays on your head in a crash. I would not doubt the outer shell of an enduro helm to be as durable if it passed the same test standard. However, more ventilation holes open more possibilities for branches and pointy stones to go through one of the vents. This is not necessarily tested for.

For me, how snug a helmet sits on my head and therefore how unlikely it is that it rips off in the first impact is important. With some of the enduro helmets I am not sure that the chin bar would even have time to buffer the impact before the whole helmet rotates upward if you face plant. And that is because the helmets sit fairly lose on the head.
But you are of course right, fit doesn't matter.

Jesus are you illiterate? I have NEVER said fit doesn't matter. You miss why I'm not hearing your point. You are telling me something I already know. You seem hellbent on convincing me of something I'm already convinced of. That's my problem with your comment. I know fit matters and it affects safety. I told it to you multiple times. So why do you keep hammering it down? I have aknowledged it but I have said it's not my question. My question was about an apples to apples comparison of DH and Enduro helmets. One where fit is the same or similar.

I know you are a smart guy so stop behaving like someone who just learned fit matters and like it's the only thing you know about bike helmets so you need to parade it like a trophy. Again I KNOW FIT MATTERS. I KNOW FIT MATTERS. OK ? Did that reach you? Or do I need to send you some reading tools? Seriously man. If you are going to be a prick at least learn to read.

 

[norbar]

My fullface didn't give me a concussion but it sure didn't prevent it. Literally of every fullface helmet I've ever owned, it was by far the worse in terms of build quality, durability and hence via suspicion based on those first two, safety.

You are lucky you have never seen my 100%. The lining doesnt fit properly and the carbon weave looks like it was made by a drunken toddler. If It didn't come from the official distributor I'd assume I have an aliexpress counterfeit.

 

[norbar]

I've got a TLD Stage and a carbon D3 but the D3 is so old and hasn't got MIPS so its probably less safe than the Stage at this point. I used the Stage for the last DH race I did and wasn't too fussed.

I used to use a demountable chinguard style for the long enduros (prior to the lightweight fullface fad) and of those I think the Bell Super DH was only one I really thought was made well.

I've had a few friends complain about newer TLD build quality issues. That's what makes me worried about them

 

[toodles]

I've had a few friends complain about newer TLD build quality issues. That's what makes me worried about them

Man the older ones weren't better than the new ones. If you didn't have an issue with D2 quality the D3 and Stage are an improvement IMHO.

 

[norbar]

Man the older ones weren't better than the new ones. If you didn't have an issue with D2 quality the D3 and Stage are an improvement IMHO.

D2 fit me like shit so I never thought about them when they were new.

 

[canadmos]

D2 fit me like shit so I never thought about them when they were new.

Don't forget Gary, the fit is the most important part here!

 

[schwaaa31]

This is timely.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/review-the-fox-proframe-rs-helmet-is-packed-with-safety-features-for-enduro-riders.html

 

[norbar]

Don't forget Gary, the fit is the most important part here!

I will not wear Gary like a helmet. No matter how angry it makes him or how well he fits on my head.

 

[norbar]

This is timely.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/review-the-fox-proframe-rs-helmet-is-packed-with-safety-features-for-enduro-riders.html

Weirdly looking at the non existant padding it looks more like a replacement for half shells

 

[canadmos]

Weirdly looking at the non existant padding it looks more like a replacement for half shells

Just reach out to Matt Beer and ask him if he'd ride with that helmet at a DH park. He's a former winner of Canadian DH Champs and is no slouch.

All answers aside, even if an "enduro" helmet is rated for "DH", you're going to need to calculate the level of risk that you're willing to take internally. None of us or anyone else can do that for you.

As seen in this thread, some are fine with wearing those helmets, some don't wear helmets and some wear half shells.

 

[norbar]

Just reach out to Matt Beer and ask him if he'd ride with that helmet at a DH park. He's a former winner of Canadian DH Champs and is no slouch.

All answers aside, even if an "enduro" helmet is rated for "DH", you're going to need to calculate the level of risk that you're willing to take internally. None of us or anyone else can do that for you.

As seen in this thread, some are fine with wearing those helmets, some don't wear helmets and some wear half shells.

Will do that. My main thing is having a rough idea what that risk is. Since I don't want to base my decision on supersticion or vague vibes

 

[Gary]

I will not wear Gary like a helmet.

C'mon... We all know fine a few brewski's and you'd totally try.

 

[kidwoo]

This is timely.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/review-the-fox-proframe-rs-helmet-is-packed-with-safety-features-for-enduro-riders.html

He already dented it

https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/23501545/

Hey norbar, you're looking for a dh helmet. Even pinkbike is skeerd of killing people

If you don’t reach downhill speeds

 

[sethimus]

fox don’t believe in xl helmets so fuck em

anyone on a 7idp 23 project? if yes, more of a round shape like giro or more oval like bell?

 

[norbar]

He already dented it

https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/23501545/

Hey norbar, you're looking for a dh helmet. Even pinkbike is skeerd of killing people

If you don’t reach downhill speeds

Yeah I kinda was leaning there reading this and reviews. I was just curious since my gap in following new gear is 5 years so I was thinking maybe something changed but apparently no. The main argument for me was multi stage enduros but worse case scenario I buy 3 helmets (though I hope my currency goes back from being in the worst place since I was born)

Will go back to shopping after I go back from my todays back X-ray. Yay for a mix of Glazed stock pads and Sram Code R. Destroying myself in a silly double drop.

 

[kidwoo]

Yeah I kinda was leaning there reading this and reviews. I was just curious since my gap in following new gear is 5 years so I was thinking maybe something changed but apparently no. The main argument for me was multi stage enduros but worse case scenario I buy 3 helmets (though I hope my currency goes back from being in the worst place since I was born)

Will go back to shopping after I go back from my todays back X-ray. Yay for a mix of Glazed stock pads and Sram Code R. Destroying myself in a silly double drop.

I'm guilty of riding way gnarlier stuff than most people would with an xc lid and no pads, but racing tired is a different deal. You need to take chances racing and doing it exhausted is more dangerous. Plenty of people just strap an xc helmet to a pack and race real fullfaces for the part that matters. Making people wear helmets to pedal up dirt roads between stages is just stupid. But hey you forfeit all dignity when you sign up for enduro races anyway amirite?

The problem with those not really fullfaces is that they give people like irider the illusion that they're getting the same protection as a real fullface just because of an industry sticker. And when those chinbars break, it's an even bigger hazard than the rock that may be hitting your chin. At least when I'm eating shit with an xc helmet I know I'm in an xc helmet and I turn my head before slamming my face into the ground. Fullfaces are for completely out of control head trajectories.....which happen when racing tired.

If you need a fullface, buy a fullface, not the mtb industry's next pRoDuCtYoUnEeD™ This market has well proven itself to make absolute trash just because they know it will seem new and useful to some rube who doesn't know any better.

 

[norbar]

I'm guilty of riding way gnarlier stuff than most people would with an xc lid and no pads, but racing tired is a different deal. You need to take chances racing and doing it exhausted is more dangerous. Plenty of people just strap an xc helmet to a pack and race real fullfaces for the part that matters. Making people wear helmets to pedal up dirt roads between stages is just stupid. But hey you forfeit all dignity when you sign up for enduro races anyway amirite?

The problem with those not really fullfaces is that they give people like irider the illusion that they're getting the same protection as a real fullface just because of an industry sticker. And when those chinbars break, it's an even bigger hazard than the rock that may be hitting your chin. At least when I'm eating shit with an xc helmet I know I'm in an xc helmet and I turn my head before slamming my face into the ground. Fullfaces are for completely out of control head trajectories.....which happen when racing tired.

If you need a fullface, buy a fullface, not the mtb industry's next pRoDuCtYoUnEeD™ This market has well proven itself to make absolute trash just because they know it will seem new and useful to some rube who doesn't know any better.

Yeah my issue is I take dumb risks all the time. I'm in the uncanny valley of skill where I'm not really fast enough to get results or ride with fast people but good enough to seriously hurt myself and I tend to take stupid choices. Not because I'm cocky but because my brain is wrong. So yeah full on helmet.

Btw. Most enduro races are meh. Wont do any local ones but I just want to try the ones that are an excuse to ride in places where I could not have otherwise.

 

[kidwoo]

Btw. Most enduro races are meh. Wont do any local ones but I just want to try the ones that are an excuse to ride in places where I could not have otherwise.

Maybe one day you'll figure out you can go to those places without a race being held, and see the trails in better shape.

Safe travels (and faceplants)!

 

[norbar]

Maybe one day you'll figure out you can go to those places without a race being held, and see the trails in better shape.

Safe travels (and faceplants)!

In some cases I can go there but some races are fun if they are more like a rally than a place full of people who care about strava but I get the general criticism of races. They are not my jam.

 

[Andeh]

The photos of the cracked Proframe chinbars are really concerning (I got one for my kid a year ago). When I need to replace my Stage, I'll definitely consider going up to something a bit burlier. My main concern with going up to a full DH is that my main use case for the fullface is when I do long backcountry rides in places with rocks, riding at speed, and am unfamiliar with the trails. Even with the Stage's weight, I notice by the end of the day that my neck and upper shoulders gets tired from the extra kilo of weight on my head. That said, the 2 most promising ones that I'll try on next time would be the Giro Insurgent Spherical and maybe the Leatt Gravity 4. POCs don't fit my head.

 

[kidwoo]

The photos of the cracked Proframe chinbars are really concerning (I got one for my kid a year ago). When I need to replace my Stage, I'll definitely consider going up to something a bit burlier. My main concern with going up to a full DH is that my main use case for the fullface is when I do long backcountry rides in places with rocks, riding at speed, and am unfamiliar with the trails. Even with the Stage's weight, I notice by the end of the day that my neck and upper shoulders gets tired from the extra kilo of weight on my head. That said, the 2 most promising ones that I'll try on next time would be the Giro Insurgent Spherical and maybe the Leatt Gravity 4. POCs don't fit my head.

That leatt has the chin strap riveted into the same whole lower helmet piece that the chinbar is. Looks like a better setup than both the stage and proframe where the chinstrap is working against a different, pinned on/glued on structural piece.

 

[iRider]

The problem with those not really fullfaces is that they give people like irider the illusion that they're getting the same protection as a real fullface just because of an industry sticker.

No, I am not under this impression. I was just pointing out that two helmets that passed the same test, actually passed the safety threshold as defined in the conditions of the test. So they actually are, to this level, identical. You cannot argue about that. I get it, one helmet might just barely pass the test while the other would pass an even more stringent test setup. This is where my disclaimer came in that real world situations might differ.

 

[kidwoo]

No, I am not under this impression.

So they actually are, to this level, identical.

Let me rephrase since we're having two different discussions. I said 'same level of protection' and you're saying 'passed the same tests'

To me passing the tests is a literal absolute minimum, and does not indicate that they are identical in any meaningful way with either of us not knowing how well they passed those tests. You use those certs to justify a pinner helmet. I never will.

 

[Andeh]

That leatt has the chin strap riveted into the same whole lower helmet piece that the chinbar is. Looks like a better setup than both the stage and proframe where the chinstrap is working against a different, pinned on/glued on structural piece.

Yeah, I like that the Leatt doesn't have a couple of big cut-aways right around that rivet point. The Proframe has a pair of cuts below the rivet coming in from both sides. The Stage at least is solid under the rivet, but as you point out, the chinbar is kind of laminated/bonded on below the rivet.

The bug catcher at the front looks useful from prior experience.

 

[kidwoo]

The Stage at least is solid under the rivet,

Different design from this?

https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/20906979/

edit: just looked at the tld website, looks like the same as current

 

[iRider]

Let me rephrase since we're having two different discussions. I said 'same level of protection' and you're saying 'passed the same tests'

To me passing the tests is a literal absolute minimum, and does not indicate that they are identical in any meaningful way with either of us not knowing how well they passed those tests. You use those certs to justify a pinner helmet. I never will.

I don't think we disagree. My comments were reactions to norbar, who wanted "...an apples to apples comparison of DH and Enduro helmets." Tests are an apples to apples comparison and Woo telling us a story of his concussion in a Fox helmet and no concussion in a Troy Lee is not.
Yes, I own the Proframe, no, I do not use it for pure DH riding. To me it is a trail helmet with a little more protection because it covers more of the back and sides of the head. If helmets like the Dropframe would have existed at the time I bought it, I most likely would have gotten one of those instead. The chin guard is a bonus, not the main feature why I bought it.

 

[StiHacka]

Different design from this?

https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/20906979/

edit: just looked at the tld website, looks like the same as current

 

[kidwoo]

Woo telling us a story of his concussion in a Fox helmet and no concussion in a Troy Lee is not.

My condolences.

My reason for bringing up the rampage was the shit construction, not the bell ringer.

I've hit my head a lot. From severely to lightly and everything in between. I have a pretty good basis for comparisons of slams where I would have expected a concussion, and ones where there's no way I would expect one. It's still a data point far more valuable than "we never crashed in the XXXXXX but we're confident it would offer good protection"

So when I have a top of the line mips fox helmet and can far more favorably report back on non-mips era helmets that lasted longer, took harder slams (like WAY harder) that didn't result in the same injury, you should be able to recognize there might be some value in that. I'll make a sticker for it so you give it creedence. Because at the end of the day I'm comparing instances which happened under actual riding conditions, where it matters.

In over 20 years of riding dh, there's only one dh intended helmet I used for a few months and then replaced it. That one. I've since looked at a lot of newer ones because I can get them for almost free. I have yet to see anything that looks like vast improvements. To me that's more valuable info that some industry designed, industry serving test that you never get to see the real results of.

 

[toodles]

I've hit my head a lot.

Fuck I should make this my sig

 

[kidwoo]

Fuck I should make this my sig

make what your sig?