Moral questions

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by Silver, Dec 23, 2007.

  1. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    I have a few moral questions. Anyone interested?

    1. Can we all agree that a place like North Korea, where dissent isn't tolerated and freedom of any sort depends on the whim of a maniacal dictator is a bad place to live? Is North Korea an evil place?

    2. Can we all agree that torturing people is a bad thing? I'm not talking waterboarding here (because moral degenerates don't happen to think that a practice used by the Khmer Rouge is torture, but that's another discussion), I'm talking about crazy things like burning people alive. Is that evil?

    3. Can we agree that people in Germany who admired Hitler for bringing the German people back to prominence after the humiliation of the first world war are people that we should feel scorn for? Even if they are mostly good people, they still looked the other way while million of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and Slavs were exterminated in their name. Is that evil?
     

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  2. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    If you need to ask you've probably misplaced your soul or do you need some more RM credits to pay back you loans
     
  3. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    Really, you're that sure about all 3?

    edit: A sample size of 1 isn't ideal, obviously...
     
  4. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    Fine, I'll play along

    1. A country that where people disappear for saying the wrong this is EVIL.
    2. Torturing people doesn't even work, at a certain point people will say anything to make the pain stop. So in effect its just cruel to torture people so yes EVIL
    3. Hitler=Evil, People who look the other way as millions of people are killed for no reason = EVIL
     
  5. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    That's cool. I'm not casting judgement on your answers, by the way. Just waiting for a few more votes.

    Do you have any objections to stating your political beliefs (not party allegiance) and religious beliefs?
     
  6. RenegadeRick

    RenegadeRick 98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin

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    Last 2 definitely evil. First, maybe not evil, but certainly not nice. Dissent should be tolerated and even encouraged. People need to be free to make their own... wait, never mind... all 3 are EVIL.

    I consider myself a populist independent religious agnostic with a Catholic upbringing who attends Lutheran services somewhat regularly and I ride a Giant Trance.
     
  7. X3pilot

    X3pilot Texans fan - LOL

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    Ahhh, I'll probably regret this later, but...

    1. A bad place to live, yep. Evil? Relative to one's personal definition of evil. It sucks to live there for sure.


    2. Torture is torture whether physical or mental. you can torture someone and do a lot of damage and never leave a mark. Effective? Another discussion. Lighting people on fire? Evil. Believing that your religion is the only clean religion and all others must be exterminated for not believing as your dogma dictates? Evil as well.

    3. Is Islam evil? Millions of followers look the other way while women are prosecuted for being raped, Saddam exterminated thousands of Kurds and yet the people of Iraq that loyally followed him (not the political inner circle but the everyday Iraqi) are they evil as well? In our country we herded and killed thousands of indian tribes and yet we still supported our government then so are our very own relatives evil? Today, millions love Putin and are loyal and consider him the Father of Russia, yet he may or may not be a ruthless killer. Yet he has brought economic stability and and a renewed sense of national pride to the people and they love him for it.


    Evil is a relative term different to each individual based on their concept of what constitutes goodness. Morality lies in each persons soul.

    Background of obligations? None. I'm not a practicer of any religion and am struggling mightily everyday to make sense of what I believe.

    Oh, Happy Holidays!
     
  8. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    None at all, just objections...

    But to answer:

    1 Evil
    2 Evil
    3 Stupid/lazy/greedy but not evil necessarily (unless they actually knew what was happening in which case Evil).

    Merry Christmas
     
  9. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    Whoops, that's embarrassing. Should have posted before that last Celebration ale...
     
  10. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    Stop fannying about and decide for pity's sake!
     
  11. dhmike

    dhmike Turbo Monkey

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    i have to say 1,2,3 are evil. so does this mean i have good morals ?
     
  12. ire

    ire Turbo Monkey

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    You labeled it evil because its ineffective?
     
  13. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    I dont even know what "Evil" is, but Im against all those things.
     
  14. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Of course on all three.

    But we've got an election next year and I'm really optimistic that we can reverse some of the trends in place in this country before we see full daily fruition of your examples.

    Happy jesus day y'all.
     
  15. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    Does anyone see where I'm going with this?
     
  16. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    Are you comparing Bush to an evil dictator? I don't think that's been done before.
     
  17. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    Hey, if you are interested in evil, why don't you think about the next homeless person you walk by? Tell me if that is evil.
     
  18. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    Nope. Nothing to do with Bush.
     
  19. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    You've got Ohio and Opie tied up and are making them do your housework?


    Wondering how jeebus feels about it?
     
  20. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    Allright, here goes:

    I think we can agree that we have a consensus here. At the very least, no one thinks that either of those three actions is a good moral choice.

    So, we all apparently agree that the Christian God (and I assume you can throw Allah in here as well as a bonus prize) is not only evil, but infinitely evil. After all, God's punishment for insubordination, or even asking questions is eternal torture, described in the Bible as being thrown into the lake of fire, for example. And since it goes on for an infinite amount of time, God is infinitely worse than Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot or any of the other monsters the human race has spawned.

    Of course, since most of you agreed that regular Germans who supported the Nazis were evil, that has interesting implications for the masses of people around the world who call themselves Christians and Muslims.

    Merry Christmas!
     
  21. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Jesus dude.

    Just buy some property out in the hills. Get some bleachers setup, and get your lion training cert.

    I really don't think your life will be complete without it.

    Hell I'll even come to your first show and keep my eye out for lions on ebay for ya.
     
  22. skinny mike

    skinny mike Turbo Monkey

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    so jeebus is da evil?
     
  23. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    That's quite a stretch. For one thing, not all xtians (and no jews) believe in hell.

    My primary High School paper was on hell and how it doesn't exist. I don't have the paper nor references, but the hell described in the new testament is a physical location that was used for earthly punishment.

    Hell, as in eternal punishment, was an invention to get people to do the right thing, much like Karma. Both are dumb.
     
  24. manimal

    manimal Ociffer Tackleberry

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    as mike myers said in So I Married An Axe Murderer:

    "E-vil, from the fru-its of the Dev-eel"
     
  25. manimal

    manimal Ociffer Tackleberry

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    i knew it was a loaded question. silver doesn't ask questions he doesn't think he already has answers to.
     
  26. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    The Jews don't get let off the hook either. After all, their holy book describes their God as giving genocidal orders which were faithfully carried out. No so good either, eh?

    Which Christians don't believe in hell, by the way? Unitarians?
     
  27. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    You disagree with one of the original three statements?
     
  28. DaveW

    DaveW Space Monkey

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    He disagrees with the "Spirit" in which the statements were made methinks..... :clue:
    Now no more putting nasty words in his mouth. :busted:
     
  29. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    I do, especially number three... it's easy to past judgment with perfect hindsight, but between a growing and prosperous economy, fear of persecution, ignorance, or delusion... many German citizens didn't truly understand what was going on.


    As for your conclusion that God is evil... this is why I say, "My God doesn't do that crap." Yes, eternal punishment is bull.

    As for xtians, I don't know which ones, but I'd appreciate you believing me when I say I wrote paper about a physical hell called Hades in Israel where people were punished immediately. I don't have the sources, but my teacher said the paper was very well researched and documented.

    So while the bible might allude to an eternal hell, it most definitely has passages talking about a hell on earth and any educated xtian would agree.
     
  30. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    As for number 3, you didn't have to be a genius to see where things were going after Kristallnacht. Keep in mind I'm not talking about Germans who didn't support Hitler. I'm talking about the ones who actively admired him.

    As for your conclusion that God is evil... this is why I say, "My God doesn't do that crap."

    Well, sure, but then we are throwing out the Bible anyways. You don't get to pick what your God does or doesn't do, especially since we have a book purportedly written by his earthly minions that had a red line to God's ear. You'd think that if God really was good, he would have redacted the parts about genocide...

    I'm aware there are Christians who don't believe in hell. They typically don't believe in a lot of the stuff that mainstream Christianity believes in either, and for that matter I'd be willing to bet that most Christians wouldn't consider those people Christians.

    After all, once you throw out all the vicious stuff in the Bible, you start to sound a lot like a secular humanist anyways, don't you?
     
  31. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    We could take it to the next level. Perhaps Lucifer disagreed with wholesale slaughter and rebelled.

    Maybe Lucifer is like Luke Skywalker?
     
  32. manimal

    manimal Ociffer Tackleberry

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    no, i was just waiting for you to pounce. your original question had the air of "trick question" all over it, hence the reason i decided to sit back and wait to see why you asked it. i know, all too well, your disdain for all things christian and i had a feeling your 3 criteria were not without intent.
     
  33. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    for accuracy's sake, it's disdain for all things religious. don't get into the whole war on christianity bit again...

    Opie, are you seriously rationalizing German support for Hitler? Willful ignorance is barely removed from tacit approval, if at all.
     
  34. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    I'm saying it's a fact that people can get sucked into bizarre situations before they realize it and then they're so deep, they can't see the truth.

    See
    -- "Third Wave" (I think that's what it was called) project at a university in the early 70s (I think) where a professor was trying to teach empathy for German citizens and did a project that got carried away creating a psuedo-nazi environment with his students. He shut it down a soon as he realized what was truly happening.
    -- Jones Town Kool-aid
    -- Helsinki syndrome where the kidnapped start to side with their kidnappers.

    I'm saying that it's unfair to punish shepple when we can't possibly understand what they were going through. I'm just talking about the average person in Germany during WWII.
     
  35. OrthoPT

    OrthoPT Monkey

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    Well said, LO. I saw where you were coming from a mile away.
     
  36. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    Almost all organized religion is evil, if not for it's action and inactions then for it ability to sap people of their free will and provide the evil with easy justification for their actions. Crusades, inquisition, Jihads, hearsay trials, stoning, crucifixions, preventing scientific progress...all rooted in religion.
     
  37. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    I don't want to hear a lecture about morality. No one commented about my walking pass the homeless analogy, and I doubt anyone is going to comment about the evil in their own lives.
     
  38. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    The answer to the homeless person problem is... you pick and choose your battles.

    Since I know I'm selfish and think of my own family before anyone else, I vote "yes" on all initiatives that fund social projects, like helping the homeless get back on their feet to help themselves.
     
  39. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    Ohio, of course, makes a very valid point. I imagine that you and I feel very similar levels of disdain for followers of the Muslim religion, especially the more zealous ones. My disdain is just a little more universal than yours. (And by the way, it extends to people who have religious like attachments to ideologies of every stripe, but of course since religion claims special knowledge about the world, it comes under special attention. Don't like that? Don't make outlandish claims about the nature life, the universe, and everything without solid evidence.)

    Still, I have to come back to my original question. Are there any of the 3 criteria you have a problem with? If so, why?
     
  40. manimal

    manimal Ociffer Tackleberry

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    ok, so i guess i'll answer your questions.

    1. no, NK isn't an "evil place", perhaps a suck place to live but not evil. i do not corrolate the lack of free will with being evil.

    2. yes, torture is evil. having been through SERE school i can understand the difference between intense interrogation and torture.

    3. Evil, no. irresponsible, yes. is buying clothes from certain brands who use borderline slave labor to make the product evil?