[Silver]

So, I guess in a way you could view it as progress.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/fight_back_against_bill_donohu.php

What a bunch of retards.

 

[kidwoo]

Heh.

I went to an episcopalian high school where we had mass every wednesday. I used to collect those things because they had some pretty ornate graphics. I'd hand them to the lunch lady as change just to watch her scowl.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

So...they...uh...

And...there's this ....uh...


I gots nuttin'...

lthumbsdown:

 

[X3pilot]

Do they taste good with peanut butter? Are they like Ritz?

When he said 'cracker' I got spooled up, but then I realized I wasn't in the Waffle House Wedding thread in the Lounge

 

[JohnE]

And the guy RETURNED the cracker?? Soggy and all...

 

[JRogers]

Obviously, death threats (or, really, threats of any kind) are uncalled for and the entire thing is blown 100x out of proportion....but saying "what's your problem? It's just a cracker" is insensitive to the point of idiotic. It DOES mean something to some people (and not all of them are complete kooks) and, based on that, should be treated with at least some respect. That is, unless you value being a douche bag, creating further problems, enlarging your ego and complaining more than actually helping anyone.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I took communion before when I wasn't supposed to. The cracker was pretty bland, and the wine was actually grape juice. Lame.

 

[kidwoo]

Obviously, death threats (or, really, threats of any kind) are uncalled for and the entire thing is blown 100x out of proportion....but saying "what's your problem? It's just a cracker" is insensitive to the point of idiotic. It DOES mean something to some people (and not all of them are complete kooks) and, based on that, should be treated with at least some respect. That is, unless you value being a douche bag, creating further problems, enlarging your ego and complaining more than actually helping anyone.

It's still just a cracker.


If I ran around calling my left testical jesus christ our savior, the right one satan, (audibly I mean), and regularly translated the conversations between them in pig latin, I doubt I'd receive any sort of pass on religious grounds. Because well......that's nuts.



If you're so dumb that you honestly don't believe a piece of cooked flour isn't a cracker anymore just because a lot of people like to play pretend it's the son of god.............hell, I'm just going to leave it at that


Come on, tell me sperm is sacred and can't be wasted now. When its status is dictated by whatever pope is in the chair at the moment..... Maybe fags will be okay too depending on which shriveled little man gets the vote one day. In the meantime we know they're bad and going to hell, but just imagine. Not that I mean to downplay all the wonderful 'help' the catholic church does for aids epidemics or anything......

 

[skinny mike]

Come on, tell me sperm is sacred and can't be wasted now.

now that's just common knowledge...

 

[Silver]

Obviously, death threats (or, really, threats of any kind) are uncalled for and the entire thing is blown 100x out of proportion....but saying "what's your problem? It's just a cracker" is insensitive to the point of idiotic. It DOES mean something to some people (and not all of them are complete kooks) and, based on that, should be treated with at least some respect. That is, unless you value being a douche bag, creating further problems, enlarging your ego and complaining more than actually helping anyone.

Or you care about the truth. And the truth is, it's a cracker. A stupid ****ing cracker. It's not like it's something fancy like a Ritz, either.

Of course, Myers could have been reacting to the Catholics who were comparing taking a cracker to a hate crime, a kidnapping, or a hostage taking. I'd consider "It's a goddamned cracker" a polite comment. Someone who makes crazy claims like that should be locked away in a mental institution and put on a heavy dose of Thorazine.

I'm glad you concede the death threats are wrong. That's mighty big of you.

 

[JRogers]

Or you care about the truth. And the truth is, it's a cracker. A stupid ****ing cracker. It's not like it's something fancy like a Ritz, either.

Of course, Myers could have been reacting to the Catholics who were comparing taking a cracker to a hate crime, a kidnapping, or a hostage taking. I'd consider "It's a goddamned cracker" a polite comment. Someone who makes crazy claims like that should be locked away in a mental institution and put on a heavy dose of Thorazine.

I'm glad you concede the death threats are wrong. That's mighty big of you.

Wow, a whole post without a pedophile joke.

I'm just saying that to a lot of people it's not "just a cracker" and to say that to them is insulting and serves no good purpose. There's no hint at all of trying to understand someone else's view and no desire to do anything constructive.

 

[Silver]

Wow, a whole post without a pedophile joke.

I wouldn't make them if God's self appointed representatives on earth would stop ****ing little kids and covering it up.

Of course, then the Church would have to answer for a history of anti-Semitism and the whole misleading populations at risk of HIV infection about the use on condoms.

But hey, what do I know about morals? I've never ****ed a young child's asshole, I've never told a poor person that condoms don't help protect against AIDS, and I've never claimed to be the voice or morality while standing silent during the holocaust. (Of course, from a guy like Bill Donohoe's perspective, the holocaust wasn't all bad. After all, it got rid of a bunch of Jews, and even some faggots. I'm sure he considers that a win/win situation.)

All actions, I have to point out, that would leave me a member in good standing in the Catholic Church...

 

[Changleen]

It's just a cracker. Get a grip.

 

[N8 v2.0]

too much h8 in one thread. this will counteract hit:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=8cf08faca5dd9ea45513

 

[Westy]

Explains why Catholic girls always swallow.

 

[JohnE]

Explains why Altar boys always swallow.

Fixed...

 

[JRogers]

I wouldn't make them if God's self appointed representatives on earth would stop ****ing little kids and covering it up.

Of course, then the Church would have to answer for a history of anti-Semitism and the whole misleading populations at risk of HIV infection about the use on condoms.

But hey, what do I know about morals? I've never ****ed a young child's asshole, I've never told a poor person that condoms don't help protect against AIDS, and I've never claimed to be the voice or morality while standing silent during the holocaust. (Of course, from a guy like Bill Donohoe's perspective, the holocaust wasn't all bad. After all, it got rid of a bunch of Jews, and even some faggots. I'm sure he considers that a win/win situation.)

All actions, I have to point out, that would leave me a member in good standing in the Catholic Church...

Funny, most Catholics in this country haven't done any of those things either, but they seem to be in good standing.

 

[kidwoo]

Funny, most Catholics in this country haven't done any of those things either, but they seem to be in good standing.

No but they stay mighty loyal to the organization that promotes, tolerates and/or covers for those things while allowing them to continue.


It's kind of like nate. He's the asshole that allows the bigger assholes to exist.

One part of the great big collective stinky orifice that makes the world a shlttier place.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Funny, most Catholics in this country haven't done any of those things either, but they seem to be in good standing.

Look up the word "extremist"...

Then take a long, hard look at what motivates 95% of all extremist behavior.

I guarantee that ELF and PETA don't have a stranglehold on the market.

To be complacent about such activities that Silver outlined (among many, many others) is abhorent.

I'm going to go play with "Satan" now...

 

[Silver]

No but they stay mighty loyal to the organization that promotes, tolerates and/or covers for those things while allowing them to continue.


It's kind of like nate. He's the asshole that allows the bigger assholes to exist.

One part of the great big collective stinky orifice that makes the world a shlttier place.

And they support the child molesting, anti-semitic, lying about AIDS organization with money. Lots of money.

I suppose you can make the argument that rich Saudis who support al-Qaeda have nothing to do with terrorism, as well. It's a stupid argument, sure, but you can make it.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

Keebler Jesus

 

[JohnE]

I'm going to go play with "Satan" now...

Named your penis too, ehh?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Named your penis too, ehh?

I didn't name it...

It came with the designation.


"I wrecked that. It's completely destroyed. Satan was here."

 

[ohio]

Or you care about the truth. And the truth is, it's a cracker.

As entertaining as this thread is, can you concede that there are objects that contain, for lack of a better word, sentimental* value to some people? Value greater than the replacement cost?

However, that is not the point, nor the reason for outrage. The reason for the outrage, is a (misguided) belief that the act was a demonstration of hatred for Catholics. The point is not the act but the intent. Just as burning a cross in someone's front yard isn't about the property damage or the waste of good wood and nails.

At the same time, the Catholics are ****ing lunatics if they think this was intended as an act of aggression or intimidation (and apparently they do, so they are). It was a prank. A silly prank. Last I checked, making fun of a group of people, even a race of people (and catholicism is a choice... if you don't like how you're treated because of that choice, make another), isn't a hate crime. They need to get the **** over themselves, dab their tears and sort out their goddamn organization that has bigger problems than a college kid (or professor) having fun at their expense.

*I feel this is a more universal choice than "symbolic"

 

[N8 v2.0]

As entertaining as this thread is, can you concede that there are objects that contain, for lack of a better word, sentimental* value to some people? Value greater than the replacement cost?

However, that is not the point, nor the reason for outrage. The reason for the outrage, is a (misguided) belief that the act was a demonstration of hatred for Catholics. The point is not the act but the intent. Just as burning a cross in someone's front yard isn't about the property damage or the waste of good wood and nails.

At the same time, the Catholics are ****ing lunatics if they think this was intended as an act of aggression or intimidation (and apparently they do, so they are). It was a prank. A silly prank. Last I checked, making fun of a group of people, even a race of people (and catholicism is a choice... if you don't like how you're treated because of that choice, make another), isn't a hate crime. They need to get the **** over themselves, dab their tears and sort out their goddamn organization that has bigger problems than a college kid (or professor) having fun at their expense.

*I feel this is a more universal choice than "symbolic"

 

[Silver]

As entertaining as this thread is, can you concede that there are objects that contain, for lack of a better word, sentimental* value to some people? Value greater than the replacement cost?

Of course. Family photos, for one, are a great example of that.

However, I would note that myself, as a godless immoral atheist wouldn't stoop so low as to threaten death to someone who ridiculed my treasured family photo that has my grandparents in it.

Now, as a better example, imagine going to a Star Trek convention where William Shatner was handing out trading cards of himself as a promotion. Freely giving them away to Star Trek fans (ignore that fact that Shatner probably would charge for that, ok...)

Now, imagine that a Star Wars fan took one of those cards from Shatner, and went home and drew a penis on it, pointed at Shatner's mouth. Would that justify death threats from Trekkies? Is it a hate crime? A kidnapping? A hostage situation?

Only the clinically insane would say yes.

 

[ohio]

oh it makes me chuckle every time.

silver, we are in agreeance.

 

[JRogers]

Look up the word "extremist"...

Then take a long, hard look at what motivates 95% of all extremist behavior.

I guarantee that ELF and PETA don't have a stranglehold on the market.

To be complacent about such activities that Silver outlined (among many, many others) is abhorent.

I'm going to go play with "Satan" now...

Many Catholics (particularly American ones) are not "complacent" and wish that things about the church would change. Like people in many churches, they chose to remain part of the organization in spite of the things it does sometimes and for good reasons. If being associated with an organization that does some bad things is utterly abhorrent, then there's about 300 million Americans you should talk to.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to remember the a few of the beneficial things the Catholic church does. They provide a considerable amount of the world's healthcare, for example, often at low rates or free in many remote places.

 

[JRogers]

As entertaining as this thread is, can you concede that there are objects that contain, for lack of a better word, sentimental* value to some people? Value greater than the replacement cost?

However, that is not the point, nor the reason for outrage. The reason for the outrage, is a (misguided) belief that the act was a demonstration of hatred for Catholics. The point is not the act but the intent. Just as burning a cross in someone's front yard isn't about the property damage or the waste of good wood and nails.

At the same time, the Catholics are ****ing lunatics if they think this was intended as an act of aggression or intimidation (and apparently they do, so they are). It was a prank. A silly prank. Last I checked, making fun of a group of people, even a race of people (and catholicism is a choice... if you don't like how you're treated because of that choice, make another), isn't a hate crime. They need to get the **** over themselves, dab their tears and sort out their goddamn organization that has bigger problems than a college kid (or professor) having fun at their expense.

*I feel this is a more universal choice than "symbolic"

True enough. But, I think you are characterizing it too weakly. If you accept either explicitly or implicitly (through a general sentiment rather than an explicit statement) transubstantiation, it is beyond sentimentality or symbolism. Yes, it is nutty to call it a "hate crime" or "hostage situation," but it is an understatement to call it a "silly prank" from the perspective of many Catholics. To them, the humor is lost and they have their reasons. I choose to respect people's beliefs and customs when I am among them.

 

[Silver]

Many Catholics (particularly American ones) are not "complacent" and wish that things about the church would change. Like people in many churches, they chose to remain part of the organization in spite of the things it does sometimes and for good reasons. If being associated with an organization that does some bad things is utterly abhorrent, then there's about 300 million Americans you should talk to.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to remember the a few of the beneficial things the Catholic church does. They provide a considerable amount of the world's healthcare, for example, often at low rates or free in many remote places.

About those 300 million Americans, that is a bit of a different situation. You didn't get to choose to be one, most of the time. And it's not like you can just pick up and move to the EU or Canada or New Zealand.

The Catholic church better had provide free healthcare. After all, they are responsible for making sure that there are more and more people born into wretched poverty every year with their stance on birth control. And then lying to them about how AIDS gets spread. It is literally the LEAST they can do. Causing tons of misery and then alleviating a few pounds of it isn't a virtue in my book...

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Many Catholics (particularly American ones) are not "complacent" and wish that things about the church would change. Like people in many churches, they chose to remain part of the organization in spite of the things it does sometimes and for good reasons. If being associated with an organization that does some bad things is utterly abhorrent, then there's about 300 million Americans you should talk to.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to remember the a few of the beneficial things the Catholic church does. They provide a considerable amount of the world's healthcare, for example, often at low rates or free in many remote places.

I know you said that the death threats were over the top...so that's something...

But all the well wishing in the world from the "true" isn't going to make all the hate, misinformation, and general hypocrisy of the few go away...Or even make it any less disdainful.

In fact...that's part of the reason it's so bad...

 

[ohio]

If you accept either explicitly or implicitly (through a general sentiment rather than an explicit statement) transubstantiation, it is beyond sentimentality or symbolism.

But that is a separate issue from my point about intent (to intimidate, etc.), which is a necessity to qualify this as a "hate crime."

You're argument may explain the reason Catholics are livid, but having a reason doesn't make it rational, and certainly doesn't mean that non-Catholics should bend their own beliefs to coddle such insanity. Catholics are free to believe what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others, but they have no right to expect anyone outside their religion to act as if their nutty beliefs are reality. We do NOT have to punish anyone in this story as if that cracker is really anything but a cracker.

If the commiter of the prank ALSO believed in transubstantiation and was therefore stealing his chunk of Christ out of malice, knowing the unimaginable emotional anguish it would cause Catholics to miss out on their bland morsel of godly flesh, then maaaaybe it could be considered an act of hate, though since no one was actually harmed it or threatened it is not even close to a hate crime. However, the acceptance of transubstantiation requires such lunacy, that you cannot possibly expect that the thief believed, accepted, or understood it.

 

[N8 v2.0]

how about if we make fun of your messiah?

 

[JRogers]

But that is a separate issue from my point about intent (to intimidate, etc.), which is a necessity to qualify this as a "hate crime."

You're argument may explain the reason Catholics are livid, but having a reason doesn't make it rational, and certainly doesn't mean that non-Catholics should bend their own beliefs to coddle such insanity. Catholics are free to believe what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others, but they have no right to expect anyone outside their religion to act as if their nutty beliefs are reality. We do NOT have to punish anyone in this story as if that cracker is really anything but a cracker.

If the commiter of the prank ALSO believed in transubstantiation and was therefore stealing his chunk of Christ out of malice, knowing the unimaginable emotional anguish it would cause Catholics to miss out on their bland morsel of godly flesh, then maaaaybe it could be considered an act of hate, though since no one was actually harmed it or threatened it is not even close to a hate crime. However, the acceptance of transubstantiation requires such lunacy, that you cannot possibly expect that the thief believed, accepted, or understood it.

I'm not arguing that it was a hate crime at all. Really, I just object to calling someone stupid for their religious beliefs (in most instances, in any case). That helps nobody and indicates a failure of compassion and imagination.

Also, whether the guy accepts transubstantiation of not, it's still a dick move. I just think about my own situation where, during much of the I year I end up going to chapel services with a lot of people who take communion and the bread and wine very seriously. I am not particularly religious by most standards and certainly don't have the reverence they do in the least. Usually, I just want a snack and coffee and donuts are still 20 minutes out. But, regardless of how I feel about it, I would not deliberately do something like walk out with some bread, drop some crumbs on the floor, etc. Doing that would be a huge dick move. It just shows a disregard for those around you. In particular, it shows a disregard for the people right there around you- not the pope, not the organization, not their history, but the people in the room. Why piss a bunch of people off if you don't have to?

And of course citizenship is different than church membership, but, first, you can leave the country if you don't like it- there are other places in the world (and, after all, it is your tax dollars funding it all anyway). Most people don't want to move because it's difficult, it's traumatic, it can cut you off from people and beacuse, day to day, most people's lives in America are divorced from many of the problems the country's government creates in other places. Church membership exhibits each of those characteristics as well.

 

[kidwoo]

Really, I just object to calling someone stupid for their religious beliefs (in most instances, in any case). That helps nobody and indicates a failure of compassion and imagination.

Kind of like that exhibited religious wars. Thank god the catholic church never had any involvement in those. You should have seen the failure of compassion and imagination in the way my high school dealt with non-christians.

Doing that would be a huge dick move. It just shows a disregard for those around you. In particular, it shows a disregard for the people right there around you- not the pope, not the organization, not their history, but the people in the room. Why piss a bunch of people off if you don't have to?

Maybe. But why get pissed off when the sacrament is a wholly personal thing? It makes no difference whether joe blow accepts your beliefs if they are sound within you. Receiving the cracker of christ is symbolic of YOUR relationship with him, no one else. Ranting and raving 'sacrelidge!' just shows more of that compassion and imagination you were talking about. What if someone believed they were ready to be converted and then changed their mind once in sight of one of the true servants™ of god (dictated by the wonderful hierarchal system in place in the catholic church™). Wouldn't welcoming that potential lost sole for consolation be the call?

Most people in church are the most unimaginative people on the planet. That's why they're there. They need to be spoon fed. And as indicated by the original link, there's a whole other host of personality traits that typically accompany the ailment.

 

[JRogers]

Kind of like that exhibited religious wars. Thank god the catholic church never had any involvement in those. You should have seen the failure of compassion and imagination in the way my high school dealt with non-christians.

Fine- but, as with most of the statements about violence and religion, pedophiles and Jews in this thread, it has virtually nothing to do with my point. I'm not Catholic and I haven't been defending the institution of the Catholic church here.

Maybe. But why get pissed off when the sacrament is a wholly personal thing? It makes no difference whether joe blow accepts your beliefs if they are sound within you. Receiving the cracker of christ is symbolic of YOUR relationship with him, no one else. Ranting and raving 'sacrelidge!' just shows more of that compassion and imagination you were talking about. What if someone believed they were ready to be converted and then changed their mind once in sight of one of the true servants™ of god (dictated by the wonderful hierarchal system in place in the catholic church™). Wouldn't welcoming that potential lost sole for consolation be the call?

For the last time, I don't condone the reaction of the Catholics and Catholic groups described above- I just wanted to balance the thoughts in the original link with some that were less sympathetic to the cracker lifter. I take issue with how both sides are acting; it's just that nobody else seemed to be doing that here. Also, I don't think it's enough to say "oh, it's a personal thing, so what's your problem?" He didn't have to go to their church and disregard their rules and customs. Would you go to someone's house do the same? Why would you do it in a church?

Most people in church are the most unimaginative people on the planet. That's why they're there. They need to be spoon fed. And as indicated by the original link, there's a whole other host of personality traits that typically accompany the ailment.

That is a gross generalization that many would take issue with. I am a fairly well educated individual and spend most of my life right now dealing with religious people and religious issues. Religion does not have a monopoly (by far) on intolerance, idiocy and violence.

Furthermore, there is a large distinction between religion causing a war (which rarely happens) and religion exacerbating and being used as post facto justification for it.

As a final, general point that it seems most of you fail to grasp- yes, churches, and the Catholic church in particular, have many problems. You can either dismiss the organizations, laugh at them and not take them seriously (which it appears is the prevailing attitude here) or, perhaps, be considerate and respectful while maintaining your personal sense of reason. The former option divides, creates anger and, as I've been saying, helps nobody, while the latter at least has some hope of effecting change (however small). Ever try and teach someone something? What's your method? Do you find a mistake and tell your student how stupid she is? Would that pique curiousity or drive them away? People don't react well to being treated poorly.

 

[N8 v2.0]

i sure wish i had a pic file of that cartoon kid, Calvin, pissing on obama...

 

[binary visions]

For the last time, I don't condone the reaction of the Catholics and Catholic groups described above- I just wanted to balance the thoughts in the original link with some that were less sympathetic to the cracker lifter.

I understand your desire to offer some balance, but realistically, the only reason that the subject is even being discussed - and the reason that people are reacting with comments like, "it's a fvcking cracker" - is because of the reaction of the Catholics.

If the reaction had been, "you know, I think that's extremely disrespectful, since it represents something greater than just a cracker" - well, nobody would be having this discussion. Trying to temper the reaction is fine but it's pretty fruitless since the only reason it swung so hard in this direction was because of the original absurdity.

As a final, general point that it seems most of you fail to grasp- yes, churches, and the Catholic church in particular, have many problems. You can either dismiss the organizations, laugh at them and not take them seriously (which it appears is the prevailing attitude here) or, perhaps, be considerate and respectful while maintaining your personal sense of reason.

Kinda falls along the same reasoning as the above. If someone walked up to you on the street and aggressively informed you that you should be killed via testicular electrocution because your teeth are crooked, your reaction isn't going to be, "gee, that's an interesting opinion! I respect your comments and appreciate you sharing them with me." Not only that, but you are unlikely to treat that person with respect in the future.

An unreasonable comment is going to provoke an unreasonable reaction. Stating that someone should burn in hell or die because they pocketed a holy cracker isn't exactly reasonable.

 

[kidwoo]

As a final, general point that it seems most of you fail to grasp- yes, churches, and the Catholic church in particular, have many problems. You can either dismiss the organizations, laugh at them and not take them seriously (which it appears is the prevailing attitude here) or, perhaps, be considerate and respectful while maintaining your personal sense of reason. The former option divides, creates anger and, as I've been saying, helps nobody, while the latter at least has some hope of effecting change (however small). Ever try and teach someone something? What's your method? Do you find a mistake and tell your student how stupid she is? Would that pique curiousity or drive them away? People don't react well to being treated poorly.

I'm not failing to grasp the point at all. I've just made a decision that happens to differ with yours and have very good reasons for doing so. I do find it ironic that you use compassion as a starting point for reaching out to those integral members of an organization notorious for demonstrating just the opposite. Sure they're not raping boys but they continue to support the crew that does.

I'm sure many of the people you work with would take pride in helping to save the lives of other people. But as catholics they associate themselves with, and perpetuate an organization that has a pretty crappy history of picking favorites among those in need, based on criteria I really do not support. I don't care how good the donuts are when condoms are discouraged for teens and those populations at risk for life threatening STDs. These 'good people' you keep referencing are pillars for that roof on the vatican.

If you want any compassion from me distance yourself from that shlt storm in rome. Nowhere in the good book does it say you need to light candles, swing incense, rub a necklace and listen to the bullsh1t declarations of the pope to go to heaven. That's a choice.

I understand every point you've made in this thread. And if anything it's a nice change from normal jeebus bashing. But you seem to think that everyone else offering arguments in opposition to your points are somehow shortsighted in how they've come to their opinions. That's not exactly accurate.

 

[Arkayne]