more home improvement

stevew · Jul 14, 2013

i think you might have more fun working at lowes than driving the fat bus...

CBJ · Jul 14, 2013

Its crazy somebody would build like that. Its so much easier to put in insulation when you are building. Looking forward to pictures of you crawling in there with insulation.

Pesqueeb · Jul 14, 2013

CBJ said:
Its crazy somebody would build like that. Its so much easier to put in insulation when you are building. Looking forward to pictures of you crawling in there with insulation.

syadasti · Jul 14, 2013

I had to move all of the sockets down in my basement cans when I switched them to LED bulbs. Check you can's bulb socket mount, they are often adjustable with a wingnut on each side and a sliding mount inside the can (first had I had to unhook a spring on each side and then reattach them after adjustment).

eric strt6 said:
new attic fan in garage with temperature controlled on /off

Waste of money - http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/fans-attic-do-they-help-or-do-they-hurt

Powered attic ventilators
Now that we’re done talking about whole-house fans — the “good” kind of attic fan — it’s time to address powered attic ventilators — the “bad” kind of attic fan.
Powered attic ventilators are usually mounted on a sloped roof or the gable wall of an attic. Most powered attic ventilators are controlled by a thermostat so that they turn on when the attic gets hot.
The intent of a powered attic ventilator is to exhaust hot air from the attic. The installers of powered attic ventilators hope that the exhausted air will be replaced by outdoor air. They also hope that the outdoor air will be cooler than the exhausted air, and that the effect of operating the fan will be to lower the attic temperature.
The idea is to save energy by reducing the run time of your air conditioner. Installers evidently hope that a powered attic ventilator will save more energy that the electricity required to run the fan.
Well, it's an interesting theory...
Although the logic behind powered attic ventilators is compelling to many hot-climate homeowners, these devices can cause a host of problems. Here’s the basic problem: a powered attic ventilator will depressurize your attic, and it’s hard to predict where the makeup air will come from. Although the “smart arrows” in the sales brochures shows outdoor air entering the attic through the soffit vents, that’s not what usually happens.
In many homes, powered attic ventilators pull conditioned air out of the home and into the attic through ceiling cracks. The net result: powered attic ventilators increase rather than decrease cooling costs.
As the cool air is being sucked out of the house through the ceiling, hot exterior air enters the house through other cracks to replace the exhausted air. The net result: the air conditioner has work harder than ever as it struggles to cool all that entering outdoor air.
Several studies show that even in a house with a tight ceiling, a powered attic ventilator uses more electricity than it saves.
Flue gases get sucked backwards into the house
A more alarming problem: researchers in Florida and North Carolina have shown that powered attic ventilators can depressurize a house enough to cause water heaters to backdraft. Since backdrafting sometimes introduces carbon monoxide into a home, the phenomenon can be dangerous.
John Tooley of Natural Florida Retrofit and Bruce Davis of Alternative Energy Corporation’s Applied Building Science Center in North Carolina conducted a field study to investigate powered attic ventilator performance. According to an article published in Home Energy magazine, “As a result of this research, Davis said that he wouldn’t recommend the use of powered attic ventilators. … The potential for hazardous conditions is particularly high in homes with combustion gas appliances, because the ventilators can create negative pressures that cause backdrafting.”
One of the researchers working with Tooley and Davis was Arnie Katz, who wrote: “In most of the houses we’ve tested, the attic fans were drawing some of their air from the house, rather than from the outside. In other words, they are cooling the attic by drawing air-conditioned air out of your house and into the attic. Air conditioning the attic is not recommended by anyone I know as an effective strategy for reducing your bills. ... In one house we tested, we measured substantial levels of carbon monoxide (CO) in the daughter’s bedroom in the basement. The CO was coming from the water heater next to the bedroom, which was backdrafting. The daughter had been suffering from flu-like symptoms for some time. The backdrafting was caused by the powered attic vent fan.”
Like a little boy looking for a job
Researchers at the Florida Solar Energy Center (FSEC) have reached similar conclusions to those reached by Tooley, Davis, and Katz. In an FSEC publication called “Fans to Reduce Cooling Costs in the Southeast,” researcher Subrato Chandra wrote, “Data measured at FSEC and elsewhere show that attics with nominal natural ventilation and R-19 ceiling insulation do not need powered vent fans. Such fans cost more to operate than they save in reduced cooling costs, so they are not recommended.” Of course, if your ceiling insulation is deeper than R-19 — as it should be — there’s even less reason to worry about your attic temperatures.
William Rose, the renowned building scientist and attic-ventilation expert, was interviewed for an article on attic ventilation that appeared in the August 1997 issue of Energy Design Update: “‘Ventilation is like a little boy who goes around the house looking for a job,’ notes Bill Rose ... ‘He can do some things well, but can’t do anything really well.’ … Research suggests that the energy to run the fan for a powered attic ventilator can be higher than the savings in cooling energy. The biggest potential problem, says Rose, is that power venting can cause a negative pressure in the attic. ... He says, ‘One of the worst things that can happen is to draw quantities of indoor air into the attic, and powered equipment is more likely to do this.’ ”
What about solar-powered attic fans?
For some reason, proponents of powered attic ventilators just don’t want to give up. In hopes of answering critics who complain that these fans use more electricity than they save, the industry has developed powered attic ventilators equipped with small photovoltaic panels. They developers of these products proclaim: these fans don’t require any grid power!
Well, that doesn’t really address the problem of potential backdrafting, does it?
Researchers at FSEC looked into solar-powered attic ventilators, and noted that the devices could, in some circumstances, reduce the electricity used for air conditioning. In their report, Performance Assessment of Photovoltaic Attic Ventilator Fans, however, the researchers concluded, “Based on the matching period analysis, estimation of annual space cooling savings are on the order of 460 kWh. These savings have a value of approximately $37 at current Florida energy prices. Given that the costs for the two units was approximately $600, or about $850 installed, the payback of the ventilators is not very favorable at over twenty years.”
My favorite quote on solar-powered attic fans comes from Arnie Katz, who wrote, “In my opinion, powered attic ventilators are generally not a good idea, whether they’re powered by nuclear electricity, burning water buffalo dung, landfill-generated methane gas, or directly by the sun…. A solar-powered attic fan … is like smoking cigarettes made with vitamin C.”
What do I do if my attic is too hot?
A hot attic isn’t necessarily a problem. If you don’t have any ductwork or HVAC equipment up there, who cares how hot it gets? After all, you should have a thick layer of insulation on your attic floor to isolate your hot attic from your cool house.
If you do have ductwork or HVAC equipment in your attic, the designer and builder of your home made a major mistake. Solutions include:
Moving your ductwork and HVAC equipment to the interior of your home;
Sealing leaky duct seams and adding insulation on top of your ductwork;
Moving the insulation from your attic floor to the sloped roof assembly, creating an unvented conditioned attic.
If you believe that your house has a hot ceiling during the summer, the solution is not a powered attic ventilator. The solution is to seal any air leaks in your ceiling and to add more insulation to your attic floor.

cecil · Jul 14, 2013

Make sure the baffles that allow air to enter through the soffit are not pushed flat or filled with the blown in insulation

syadasti · Jul 14, 2013

eric strt6 said:
hey smart ass its for the garage which has no shared access to the house attic

Still a waste of money as noted in the article and in the comments below it:

The installers of powered attic ventilators hope that the exhausted air will be replaced by outdoor air. They also hope that the outdoor air will be cooler than the exhausted air, and that the effect of operating the fan will be to lower the attic temperature.

Martin Holladay, GBA Advisor

Running a fan always requires electricity. Of course, a fan cannot cool your garage unless the outdoor air temperature is lower than the indoor air temperature...
The other question: what are you storing in your attic? Does it matter what the temperature is? If you have an old lawnmower and some Christmas ornaments up there, it probably doesn't matter if the garage is 80 degrees or 110 degrees.

Put some insulation in the garage rather than wasting it on a running a fan:

Like a little boy looking for a job
Researchers at the Florida Solar Energy Center (FSEC) have reached similar conclusions to those reached by Tooley, Davis, and Katz. In an FSEC publication called “Fans to Reduce Cooling Costs in the Southeast,” researcher Subrato Chandra wrote, “Data measured at FSEC and elsewhere show that attics with nominal natural ventilation and R-19 ceiling insulation do not need powered vent fans. Such fans cost more to operate than they save in reduced cooling costs, so they are not recommended.” Of course, if your ceiling insulation is deeper than R-19 — as it should be — there’s even less reason to worry about your attic temperatures.

jonKranked · Jul 15, 2013

new title for syadasti:

"more smug than al gore"

syadasti · Jul 15, 2013

eric strt6 said:
you do your **** and I'll do mine. it drops to the 50s at night here. I use the fan to rapidly pull the hot air out of the garage so I can use the work shop in the evening when I get home. The temp switch is handy it shuts it off if I forget to throw the manual switch.

If you are working in your garage at night why not just open the garage door and then just run a large floor fan for a few minutes like this.

If you have big differentials like that, a good upgrade to save a bit on AC and improve indoor air quality would be this type of fan system:

http://rebar.ecn.purdue.edu/ect/links/technologies/new/nightbreeze.aspx

Developed in Davis, CA...

jonKranked · Jul 15, 2013

you should work as a contractor :rolleyes:

syadasti · Jul 15, 2013

jonKranked said:
you should work as a contractor

I have. I help run a 90,000 sq ft facility most of which only has fans for summer cooling. Our 60,000 sq primary building was built long ago with older conventional building ideas. Its pretty damn hot, some dumb people like to put on the ceiling fans during the summer which doesn't do sh*t - only the cross ventilation fans and/or opening the garage doors/exits doors for airflow work there. The newer 30,000 sq ft facility I acted as one of the GCs - its at least 15F cooler inside that building than outside without any fans (tons of insulation instead) - not only that but in the winter we've gone from a 2,000,000 BTU heater to 4 125,000 which barely run - our natural gas bill is 1/10 the usage with the new building. The lighting fixtures we picked out exceed the energy efficiency standards by over 60% too. It was replacing a building that failed overnight due to metal failure during a snow storm. The same year I oversaw the 281 kW solar array project which has enabled us to be one of the first facilities in our industry in the world to be an annual net-zero electric user.

CrabJoe StretchPants · Jul 15, 2013

Don't you have some birds to go play with?

jonKranked · Jul 15, 2013

syadasti said:
I have. I help run a 90,000 sq ft facility most of which only has fans for summer cooling. Our 60,000 sq primary building was built long ago with older conventional building ideas. Its pretty damn hot, some dumb people like to put on the ceiling fans during the summer which doesn't do sh*t - only the cross ventilation fans and/or opening the garage doors/exits doors for airflow work there. The newer 30,000 sq ft facility I acted as one of the GCs - its at least 15F cooler inside that building than outside without any fans - not only that but in the winter we've gone from a 2,000,000 BTU heater to 4 125,000 which barely run - our natural gas bill is 1/10 the usage with the new building. The lighting fixtures we picked out exceed the energy efficiency standards by over 60% too. It was replacing a building that failed overnight due to metal failure during a snow storm. The same year I oversaw the 281 kW solar array project which has enabled us to be one of the first facilities in our industry in the world to be an annual net-zero electric user.

tl;dc

jonKranked · Jul 15, 2013

hey eric, i just installed that same fan in my attic. derp.

and as a pre-emptive response to syadasti's next know-it-all remark: there's a vent the same size as the one used for the exhaust fan on the opposing gable. plus i made sure my soffit baffles are clear. this is also in preparation for installing a whole house fan (probably around late august september).

Pesqueeb · Jul 15, 2013

eric strt6 said:
yeah he is an annoying sort of fellow isn't he!

Stop picking on Syadasti, he has a medical condition. He can't help it if he was born without a sense of humor.

jonKranked · Jul 15, 2013

Pesqueeb said:
Stop picking on Syadasti, he has a medical condition. He can't help it if he was born without a sense of humor.

if you had a choice - being born a ginger, or being born without a sense of humor - which would you choose?

Pesqueeb · Jul 15, 2013

jonKranked said:
if you had a choice - being born a ginger, or being born without a sense of humor - which would you choose?

I have a medical condition! Lack of pigment.

jonKranked · Jul 15, 2013

i guess you need a sense of humor to deal with life as an albino

Pesqueeb · Jul 15, 2013

jonKranked said:
i guess you need a sense of humor to deal with life as an albino

Sometime you gotta laugh to keep from crying.

N8 v2.0 · Jul 15, 2013

You can make a bigger difference in your home's summer temps by using a radiant barrier in the attic. When I was building houses, I always used radient barrier roof decking - it's a few bucks more than regular decking but keep the house much cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter.

There are systems you can install in existing homes, so don't think you have to tear off your roof deck.

Do a google search if you want more info.

syadasti · Jul 15, 2013

jonKranked said:
if you had a choice - being born a ginger, or being born without a sense of humor - which would you choose?

I have a red beard.

Pesqueeb · Jul 15, 2013

syadasti said:
I have a red beard.

Edit: Must spread rep

jonKranked · Jul 15, 2013

syadasti said:
I have a red beard.

god must've designed you right after he got done with the platypus

syadasti · Jul 15, 2013

jonKranked said:
and as a pre-emptive response to syadasti's next know-it-all remark: there's a vent the same size as the one used for the exhaust fan on the opposing gable. plus i made sure my soffit baffles are clear. this is also in preparation for installing a whole house fan (probably around late august september).

JK, speed holes for your house might work and match your bike too.

jonKranked · Jul 15, 2013

syadasti said:
JK, speed holes for your house might work and match your bike too.

i'll hire some carpenter bees. they're non-union.

syadasti · Jul 18, 2013

By JK's request, following up

About 7 months ago I had the top plates sealed, a section (20% maybe) blocked off for storage with walls to keep the blown-in stuff away, 18" of dense pack blown in on top of the existing fiberglass, and an attic stair cover made. I think if I did it again I would go with the more expensive sprayfoam on the sloped roof so I wouldn't lose the space and occasionally the insulation drifts into the storage area which is a PITA.

Here are some related videos:

stevew · Jul 18, 2013

^
lulz.

syadasti · Jul 18, 2013

stevew said:
^
lulz.

This project as a whole qualified for $4000 state rebate ($5000 was max, but my home was too new - 2004 - to reach that much improvement post upgrades on a reasonable budget), $10K 10 year interest-free state loan (paid through the electric company), and I got the maximum federal energy improvements refund ($500?)

stevew · Jul 18, 2013

syadasti said:
This project as a whole qualified for $4000 state rebate ($5000 was max, but my home was too new - 2004 - to reach that much improvement post upgrades on a reasonable budget), $10K 10 year interest-free state loan (paid through the electric company), and I got the maximum federal energy improvements refund ($500?)

that's cool....i thought it was funny you continued needling eric upon JK's request....that is all.

ebarker9 · Jul 18, 2013

syadasti said:
This project as a whole qualified for $4000 state rebate ($5000 was max, but my home was too new - 2004 - to reach that much improvement post upgrades on a reasonable budget), $10K 10 year interest-free state loan (paid through the electric company), and I got the maximum federal energy improvements refund ($500?)

This...is intriguing. In NJ?

syadasti · Jul 18, 2013

Steve, Eric might also still have access to some top plates and/or a need for attic stairs cover.

ebarker9 said:
This...is intriguing. In NJ?

Yeah it used to be even better and gave real savings incentive to the people and the associated industries but they Christie ruined it (along with the solar industry - formerly the fastest growing in the nation). Christie wants to waste money on things like the old coal plant in Trenton which increase healthcare costs for the residents there and makes acid rain for people elsewhere.

http://www.njcleanenergy.com/hp

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index

ebarker9 · Jul 18, 2013

syadasti said:
Yeah it used to be even better and gave real savings incentive to the people and the associated industries but they Christie ruined it (along with the solar industry - formerly the fastest growing in the nation). Christie wants to waste money on things like the old coal plant in Trenton which increase healthcare costs for the residents there and makes acid rain for people elsewhere.

http://www.njcleanenergy.com/hp

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index

Thanks for the info. Currently in the process of buying a house in which I'll be investing some money for updated HVAC equipment (new boiler, maybe mini-split heat pump) and likely some additional insulation work, so I'l take all the help I can get.

DaveW · Jul 19, 2013

Pesqueeb said:
I have a medical condition! Lack of pigment.

Yeah ultra cracker pretty nasty as medical conditions go.....

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