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More Pro-Gun Propaganda

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
Hasnt been posted yet because its a statistical fluke.
Lets see how you feel about your decision to carry a gun when some day your kid gets its hands on it and blows its face off.

Id say chances for something bad to happen with it are about a thousand times higher then you stopping a "stabbing spree".
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,701
506
NC
Posting one lone story about a guy stopping violence with his firearm amidst all of the tens of thousands of other gun deaths in the US is exactly the kind of insane cognitive dissonance that makes gun advocates look like a bunch of loony rednecks and cowboys.

There are plenty of responsible gun owners in the US, and plenty of good reasons to own guns, but when a link like this is posted and used as evidence that carrying a weapon is a good thing, it makes me wonder how you'd get your gun drawn with your knuckles that close to the ground.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,386
953
My own world inside my head
The thing is BV, you are not going to normally hear about when a legal firearm carrier stops a crime. We generally do not need to brag about it, and the criminals do not talk about it...... It only comes into view when it happens to be caught by the media. Just with the officers I know here in San Bernardino county and Riverside county I can tell you the rate of self defense with a concealed weapon is far higher than anyone would realize, generally because once the weapon is drawn people scatter, the majority of the time a shot is never fired.

Given there are no true stats as to how many people that draw their weapon would actually have the constitution needed to fire at another human....... but still food for thought is all.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
24,128
3,246
In my pants
The thing is BV, you are not going to normally hear about when a legal firearm carrier stops a crime.
You want to know the thing about that thing?



You also don't hear about it every time some dumbass kills someone by accident. You'll hear about the big ones that are easy to sensationalize like sandy hook or aurora, but those are a percent of a percent of a percent of the instances that happen every day.

So if you're going to play the tip of the iceberg argument, just be willing to acknowledge the existence of this:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html


And don't pretend for a second that the vast majority of guns being used are done so in a manner like what happened in that SLC story.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,701
506
NC
You want to know the thing about that thing?

You also don't hear about it every time some dumbass kills someone by accident.
Yep.

I just believe that those who think the occasion to stop a violent crime in progress is somehow sufficiently offsetting to the tens of thousands of gun deaths per year are so utterly deluded that it's a wonder they don't believe the world is run by the underground crab people.

Yes. There are absolutely some violent crimes stopped every year by gun owners. Undoubtedly. Statistically, it'd be an absolute miracle if that did not happen. Does it even rank in terms of the violence inflicted elsewhere? No chance. Not a chance in hell. I don't care if you assume the reported numbers are off by multiple orders of magnitude.

And this is coming from someone who shot competitively for several years and is NOT for an outright gun ban. I'm just reflecting on the insanity of the argument.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,386
953
My own world inside my head
Do no get me wrong, some people just do not qualify with the mental capacity to keep themselves and others safe............ Your right, the use of an incident like this is pretty ****ty PR for those supporting Concealed carry, the events are far and few between........

But I do have to ask..... Tens of thousands of gun deaths? Seems a bit hi with that number, linky to actual stats?

I also fully acknowledge that there is no cure for an idiot
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,592
2,760
AK
Yep.

I just believe that those who think the occasion to stop a violent crime in progress is somehow sufficiently offsetting to the tens of thousands of gun deaths per year are so utterly deluded that it's a wonder they don't believe the world is run by the underground crab people.
You must not read the same message boards that I do. These right wing crazy DEFEND 2ND AMENDMENT TO THE DEATH (and ignore 1st and other amendments when it's convenient) absolutely believe our government is by underground crab people.

They believe that somehow there is an entire class (race?) of people that "hate america" and are so against them that they need to stockpile weapons and just wait for the "word" to go out and attack whomever is coming to "get their guns" (crabpeople obviously). Since i work in government, I get to see that people in government are generally very far right leaning, and they too often believe in this fictional government entity/person/motive that exists "somewhere", but just not "here". The ridiculous part is that they ARE the government, they ARE the people who supposedly are the crabpeople. Sure, people have disagreements, sure they might have a different vision, but it's nowhere near what those crazy right wing NRA attendees think, which is hopefully not driving them into a "do or die" situation with their paranoia, where they are forced to choose with violently defending their belief system vs. having it collapse because it's just not reality.
 
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Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,592
2,760
AK
Every guy wants to be "the hero". They want to singlehandedly kill criminals and save the day, like John McClain or any movie with Kurt Russel. It's a fantasy. We want it. Those of us with half a brain realize it is just that, but those without can't get past the fact that they think they are going to somehow end crime with one-on-one showdowns.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,701
506
NC
But I do have to ask..... Tens of thousands of gun deaths? Seems a bit hi with that number, linky to actual stats?
The CDC tracks it. For 2011 & 2010:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf

2011 adds up to 31,940 deaths and 32,163 injuries. 2010 adds up to 31,328 deaths and 31,672 injuries. Those are both a little low because I didn't include infant mortality or a couple other small categories.

They have a ton of others for various years.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,386
953
My own world inside my head
The CDC tracks it. For 2011 & 2010:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf

2011 adds up to 31,940 deaths and 32,163 injuries. 2010 adds up to 31,328 deaths and 31,672 injuries. Those are both a little low because I didn't include infant mortality or a couple other small categories.

They have a ton of others for various years.
Hmmmm..... Well yeah 30 k is tens of thousands..... I guess when you hear it said like that "tens of thousands" it sparks a little more in your thought process to make seem higher than that.




I am with you though, I am def a pro gun person, I am also pro gun control. I can see you are one that understands that statement though. Our current gun control system is a joke though, and most can also see that.

Here is my take and what I see, every time something bad happens that is widely publicized some government official wants to enact a new law limiting more rights against those who have done nothing wrong, instead of harsher punishments for those that are already breaking the law..... At least that is what I see.

My personal take on a good course of correction, start by starting over with the GC laws, Background check? Sure I am ok with that. Waiting period? Sure, if I need a gun RIGHT now, I probably need to think about what I am about to do. Mandatory training class? Actually I see that is one of the biggest things missing from gun control. Just to get it started those are some of the first things I see, goes towards my statement that no matter what weapon you choose for self defense/home defense be it a pump shotgun or an AR15, learn how to use it.

We could go on for days on this subject, fact is, nothing puts more guns in homes and on the street than the whisper of the government taking them away.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
24,128
3,246
In my pants
Here is my take and what I see, every time something bad happens that is widely publicized some government official wants to enact a new law limiting more rights against those who have done nothing wrong, instead of harsher punishments for those that are already breaking the law..... At least that is what I see.
No that's what you HEAR.

How can you in the same breath complain about rights being taken away and then say that you personally are FOR most of the things being proposed?

People in this country have a right to not be gunned down. Are you honestly going to claim that the right to own whatever gun you want trumps that? A right that's not even clearly stated in the one place in the entire constitution that the word 'regulated' even appears?

And what part of life in prison or capital punishment isn't harsh?

We could go on for days on this subject, fact is, nothing puts more guns in homes and on the street than the whisper of the government taking them away.
And that right there should tell you just how stupid most of the people are making the same arguments you're repeating. Your own thoughts in that post make sense. It's all the other recycled freedom shlt that's full of holes (see what I did there?:D)

But every time you stand up and say 'but I'm a responsible gun owner and therefore I don't think any more regulations need to be considered', you make it that much easier to continue the clusterfvck we're in that gets thousands and thousands of people killed, a phenomenon that is entirely and uniquely american among first world countries. All those dead people had their rights infringed upon WAY more than anyone who can't buy a friggin semi-auto rifle.


Quit battin' for the tards.
 
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DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,386
953
My own world inside my head
And just like always...... Someone will get frustrated and not understand what is actually being said.

It is not about semi automatic weapons, its about retards saying this semi auto is ok, but this one is not..... Even when chambered with the exact same round, and use the exact same capacity magazines etc etc.......

Blah Blah, too many people get pissed about subjects like this, and cannot seriously sit back and just take in the entirety of the topic and how asinine it really is......


I am not even going to get into it, Yeah I agree the original topic is a stupid pro gun show, yes I know there are retards with guns too, I know there are also very responsible gun owners as well.......
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
24,128
3,246
In my pants
It is not about semi automatic weapons, its about retards saying this semi auto is ok, but this one is not..... Even when chambered with the exact same round, and use the exact same capacity magazines etc etc.......
And don't misunderstand the people actually looking to address firearms based on their function, not their appearance. Just because the original assault weapons ban failed to do this doesn't mean a conversation about the future can't include it. And don't think that one or two seeming contradictions in past legislation completely negates the topic. Far from it.
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
And just like always...... Someone will get frustrated and not understand what is actually being said.

It is not about semi automatic weapons, its about retards saying this semi auto is ok, but this one is not..... Even when chambered with the exact same round, and use the exact same capacity magazines etc etc.......

Blah Blah, too many people get pissed about subjects like this, and cannot seriously sit back and just take in the entirety of the topic and how asinine it really is......


I am not even going to get into it, Yeah I agree the original topic is a stupid pro gun show, yes I know there are retards with guns too, I know there are also very responsible gun owners as well.......
For every responsible gunowner how many irresponsible gun owners do you think there are?
And do you think all the deaths are worth letting this responsible group keep their guns?

Im not saying all guns should be banned, but by regulation you will make the irresponsible group as small as possible.
I seriously think in a couple of generations people wont even mind a ban on all fire arms after they see a decline in gun related crime and deaths.
Its just a generational thing where old fashioned standards are being promoted by pro gun lobbies.
The rest of the world allready knows this and Im sure the US will catch on eventually.

The issue is not about the technicalities of semi auto or fully auto either.
Pro gun lobbies are just using this to distract the attention away from the real issue.
Some guns make sense to me for self defense, but nobody needs a fully or a semi auto with a 50round mag.
 

DirtyMike

Turbo Fluffer
Aug 8, 2005
14,386
953
My own world inside my head
And...... Like most, you do not see the real reason for the resistance to giving them up in the first place..... It is ok, Most do not.


Let me sum it up a little, the idea of our original government was that the people were the government, and had just as much power..... That includes arms..... Now I know that our military is not going to share with the general public all the goodies they have..... BUT Here is the true and full dilemma... Do I need an AR 15 to defend my home? No, but to ask me to give up my right to have one is BS..... I will give up that right when our political leaders give it up first. When our leaders give up having guards armed in such a manor, for our politicians to spew this crap about what is or is not justified for self defense or protection when they are using the very weapons and supplies they are telling law abiding citizens they cannot have....... Just think about it for awhile.....




You do not have to agree with me, that is in fact another wonderful part of what we have in this country, a right to our own opinions, thoughts, religion...... take one away, were does it stop before the government is given back the very power the constitution was written to limit in the first place?
 
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Kevin

Turbo Monkey
And...... Like most, you do not see the real reason for the resistance to giving them up in the first place..... It is ok, Most do not.


Let me sum it up a little, the idea of our original government was that the people were the government, and had just as much power..... That includes arms..... Now I know that our military is not going to share with the general public all the goodies they have..... BUT Here is the true and full dilemma... Do I need an AR 15 to defend my home? No, but to ask me to give up my right to have one is BS..... I will give up that right when our political leaders give it up first. When our leaders give up having guards armed in such a manor, for our politicians to spew this crap about what is or is not justified for self defense or protection when they are using the very weapons and supplies they are telling law abiding citizens they cannot have....... Just think about it for awhile.....


You do not have to agree with me, that is in fact another wonderful part of what we have in this country, a right to our own opinions, thoughts, religion...... take one away, were does it stop before the government is given back the very power the constitution was written to limit in the first place?
So what do you really think is gonna happen? Goverment is going to come to your home and enslave you or worse?
Why do you need to have the same weaponary as them? You really expect that one day you will have to defend yourself against the US Army? And even if so, do you really think an ar15 is gonna defend you against a ****ing Apache?
You are so afraid of this that you are willing to have 30.000 (and rising) gun related deaths a year in your country? Men, women and children?

And what is so sacred about this "right to bear arms" anyway? Ever thought about the possibility that this original id of goverment maybe wasnt the best one? Or maybe it was a good id at the time but things have changed so drastically that you should maybe revise them?
How about the "right" to a democracy?
If the majority of US citizens is for stricter gun laws, shouldnt that right be held higher then what was written in the constitution two centuries ago? May I add; by people who thought it was ok to own and trade slaves...
The founding fathers may have been exceptionally progressive thinkers but history has tought us they were not infallible.


So no, I dont agree with you, but I think most people dont.
Your constitution is an outdated piece of paper, costing thousands of lives a year against the will of the majority of US citizens.
The only reason this hasnt changed yet is because your system is broken and corrupted by economical motives of pro gun lobbyists like the NRA.
 
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Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
30,308
5,712
Riding the baggage carousel.
x-post from PaWN

Anecdote time:
[coolstorybro] Rampers just brought down a bagful of brand new magazines, with receipt still in the bag that a customer was handing out to people at the gate. Every single one was the latest copy of "Guns and Ammo", "Shooting Times", "Gun World", and "Handguns" [/coolstorybro]

This firmly cements in place my long held opinion, that for the crazies, guns have supplanted religion. It's idolatry. I mean, this guy was proselytizing guns. It's absolutely no different than if a Jehovah had been in the terminal handing out copies of the Watchtower, or if a couple Mo Elders had been handing out the Book of Mormon, or, since this is an airport, a couple Krishna's had been handing out pamphlets.

The gun thing is crazy. :twitch:
 
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aixelsyd

Chimp
May 16, 2007
83
0
Why do you guys care so much about guns now? Where was your opinion when this sub forum was started? You know I started to write out why I believe in our 2A but after rereading your posts above I realized I was wasting my time. Its not worth it dirty mike, don't waste yours either
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
24,128
3,246
In my pants
Let me sum it up a little, the idea of our original government was that the people were the government, and had just as much power.....
That makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it.

Well here we are. We've been slaving over this document which lays out the foundation for a structure of government. Let's just leave this window open to throw it all out any time a group of people with a bunch of guns has a problem.

That's not what the 2nd amendment lays out. At all. Or even close.
What the second amendment lays out is what became the national guard. That fantasy of citizen rule by firepower was made up by lobbyists for people wanting to sell guns to you.

But hey I'll give you this. You bought it. The fallacy, AND the expensive hardware. It's not the citizenry that 'won' there. You have to realize that.
 

aixelsyd

Chimp
May 16, 2007
83
0
That's not what the 2nd amendment lays out. At all. Or even close.
What the second amendment lays out is what became the national guard. That fantasy of citizen rule by firepower was made up by lobbyists for people wanting to sell guns to you.

But hey I'll give you this. You bought it. The fallacy, AND the expensive hardware. It's not the citizenry that 'won' there. You have to realize that.
The Supreme Court as well as a well known Constitutional Scholar disagrees with you.

http://www.lawnix.com/cases/dc-heller.html




https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TyXcY7NJHFg#!
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,329
4
in da shed, mon, in da shed
With some of the tucked-tool, sissyfied responses in this thread, it's easy to see why our President feels that he can wipe his backside with the same Constitution he swore to protect and circumvent the will of the people by decreeing through executive action what he could not successfully legislate. The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting and natural rights to self-defense and the equipment to do so are the only safeguard that exists for the others enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Funny how the areas with the biggest crime problems are the very same ones with the strongest gun control laws. If you want feel-good rainbow and unicorn placebos in place of safety, go right ahead but don't tell me what I can and cannot have in MY gun safe.
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,592
2,760
AK
Funny how the areas with the biggest crime problems are the very same ones with the strongest gun control laws.
You mean like Arizona?
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/az/crime/

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ny/crime/

I own guns, support our right to do so reasonably and I feel there could be better measures to keep them out of the hands of bad people, but you do realize that most criminals have gotten their guns from "law abiding gun owners" one way or another...right?

Our bat-**** crazy gun-culture is hugely to blame. We train kids at a young age how "cool" it is to shoot guns, kill people, etc. Just go look in the toy aisles at your local supermarket.

My plan to fix this would be to make bullets around $50 each, use the taxes to pay for mental hospitals, treatment and research. Then you could buy enough rounds for self defense, but not so many that you could afford enough for mass murder, in fact, when's the last time you heard about some multi-millionaire massacre? If you go to a range, they would sell you the rounds for normal cost, with the stipulation that you had to fire any and all rounds that you purchased there, or turn them in at the end.

Psychological and behavioral research overwhelmingly shows that the less barriers there are to things like murder, massacres, rape, etc, the more common/prevalent they are in a society, no matter how many guns the "good guys" have.
 
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llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,329
4
in da shed, mon, in da shed
Like D.C., Baltimore, Chicago, L.A., Detroit, etc.

How do you propose to legislate away the tendency in some towards criminal behavior? Making it more difficult and expensive for me, the law-abiding, to get a firearm does not deter a prohibited person from getting one. It just helps liberal career pols get elected and their constituents feel like they have done something to strike back at a faceless boogeyman.
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,592
2,760
AK
Like D.C., Baltimore, Chicago, L.A., Detroit, etc.

How do you propose to legislate away the tendency in some towards criminal behavior?
I proposed research above for mental health, etc. Like I said, research also overwhelmingly indicates that the more barriers there are to violent behavior, the less likely it is. Besides, nearly everyone in the middle east has an AK-47 and the fear of getting shot sure isn't stopping crime.

Making it more difficult and expensive for me, the law-abiding, to get a firearm does not deter a prohibited person from getting one.
Sure it does, firearms owned by law-abiding citizens are far more likely to be involved in crimes, domestic violence, suicide and a plethora of other bad things before "a justified self-defense" action. Besides, where do you think all these criminals get guns? Ultimately the large majority originated as a purchase by a "law abiding gun owner". I don't care about how much it costs you. I figure with 10 rounds you should be able to stop just about any crime.

It just helps liberal career pols get elected and their constituents feel like they have done something to strike back at a faceless boogeyman.
If that's how you feel, that's cool, but it doesn't disprove any of the above.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,329
4
in da shed, mon, in da shed
None of my firearms have been involved in crimes, I don't beat my wife, think suicide is a selfish cop-out, and enjoy the recreation and domestic security firearms help to provide. If you are trying to suggest I shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun because some thief or burglar my break into my home, get past the cameras and alarm, defeat my safe and steal them, what is passing another law adding additional hoops and costs for the law-abiding going to accomplish but generate more fee income for the state? Criminals by definition ignore laws and acquire guns illegally. Why should I as a non-prohibited citizen be denied the means to self-protection because the same hypocritical gun-ban politicians who dwell in gated communities and have security details lack the spine to deal with criminals as they should be dealt with? Until everyone's firearm is limited to 10 rounds, don't expect me to have to make do with less. Why not tell me I have to use a flippin' flintlock if you really want to cut my legs out from beneath me?!?!
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,592
2,760
AK
Your gun is statistically much more likely to be used in crime, against a family member, for suicide, for all sorts of things at a far greater rate than any type of :"self defense", so what right do you have to endanger me by owning a gun? Where do you think all these guns criminals have came from?
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,329
4
in da shed, mon, in da shed
I do not buy BS Obama-dictated CDC politically-motivated purchased statistics, first of all, so please don't waste your time quoting them. Secondly, I guess I will never understand the thinking of people who would happily punish the law-abiding for the deeds of the law-ignoring...especially when it won't have any appreciable effect on the crime they claim to abhor. My guns are perfectly happy where they rest now and are not likely to go gallivanting off by themselves to endanger you. My family members also shoot and I certainly have no reason to wish harm upon you. If a criminal should threaten you with a gun he stole from me, why not punish the criminal? Is this really revolutionary thinking? Prohibiting me from having a gun because of what some criminal may or may not do in the future independent of my will or influence is C-R-A-Z-Y. By your same logic, you should be banned from having a car because somebody might one day steal it and run me over while fleeing the police! What right do you have to endanger me by owning an assault vehicle?
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,592
2,760
AK
By your same logic, you should be banned from having a car because somebody might one day steal it and run me over while fleeing the police! What right do you have to endanger me by owning an assault vehicle?
I wasn't aware car-violence was a big problem like gun violence. Do tell.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,329
4
in da shed, mon, in da shed
I agree RE: stupid people although I am not sure whether stupidity or ignorance(perhaps willful ignorance?) is actually the problem. There is no such thing as "gun violence" because guns are tools neutral of intent. It is a made-up term gun grabbers use to demonize and blame a piece of metal for the negative actions of the individual wielding it. Do you prefer ax violence, hammer violence or machete violence to gun violence? I personally dislike drunk drivers, who kill more innocents than people with guns but I am not foolish enough to call such deaths "car violence" and attempt to ban my neighbor's Honda Odyssey.
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,592
2,760
AK
And somehow the overwhelming majority of nations with quality of life equal to or better than our own get by with far more firearm restrictions and far less firearm violence. Strange...
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,329
4
in da shed, mon, in da shed
They may have less of what banners call "firearm violence"(keeping in mind antis include suicides in the statistics) but why do you care if the violence is committed with a firearm versus a knife or a bludgeon or an axe or a rope? People visiting violence upon other people is still a horrible thing and dead is still dead. Our nation is the only one with a Constitution that values individual natural inherent (God-given, if you will allow) liberties over State domination for the sake of its own longevity. Our Constitution's framers foresaw Government's tendency toward expansion and suppression of natural rights over time and wanted to make sure that our citizens always had at their disposal the tools of rebellion should history again repeat itself. Now that the memory of our freedom fight has grown dim and knowledge of the reason things were framed as they were has waned with our shrinking valuation of our own history, the wisdom of our founding fathers shines all the brighter. Even back then, most citizens were lemmings rather than true patriots so it stands to reason that similarly our populace would be heavy with dead weight and buffoons who care more about what the Kardashians ate for breakfast than the fact that their neighbor's children might have had none at all.
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
http://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Four-year-old-possibly-shot-dead-in-north-Harris-6108794.php

"It's just a terrible accident," Leticia Beal, a cousin of Ashley Beal, said in tears. "We see it all the time on the news but you never think it'll hit home. It's the most horrible thing."


This is the second young child in Houston to die in an accidential shooting in as many days. A 3-year-old died Friday in northwest Harris County.

Yeah, that could have totally happend with an axe...
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,329
4
in da shed, mon, in da shed
Until you find an effective way to ban stupidity, fools will continue to exist and the innocent will continue to die, My guns are in a safe for which only myself and my wife know the combination. If you leave a handgun in a nightstand or some other place a child can get a hold of it, you are begging for trouble. But again, why should a responsible owner be stripped of their rights because of the actions of some other irresponsible parent or adult who SHOULD know better? We can't all live in padded cells to potentially protect us from ourselves and sadly, whether it's a drunk driver, a foolish gun owner or a careless cousin with matches, it seems the innocent often pay for the misdeeds of the guilty.
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
And thats where youre wrong.
People are so stupid they do need to be protected from yourselves.
Have you noticed how big of a fucking mess the US is?
This is (partially but not exclusively) because youre briliant founding fathers couldnt have ever predicted the change the US would go in their near future. Therefore theyve written a constitution that has way too much power and is now being abused, and has become out dated and irrelevant.