[slimshady]

My reasoning for running a bigger tire in the front dates back to the XC/hardtail days, in the 90s.

I recall asking Tinker Juarez here in Buenos Aires* why most of the bikes had mismatched tires and he said it was because the front tire would draw a moar compact path where the rear one would be able to hook up the terrain better while rolling faster at the same time. Also, he said the front tire would see moar leaning as you rolled into a turn, and it made sense to have a bigger contact patch to prevent it from skidding before the rear one did.


* I think this was back in '95-96, he was recently married to Jimena Florit, and came for a promotional tour.

 

[Andeh]

Dropping the stem 3mm seems to have helped. Corning felt more normal. Although now that I'm thinking about having more of a forward (or less rearward) bias, maybe that's it too. I still want to try a 50mm stem too, although I suspect I'll like that less.

I absolutely agree running a narrower rear tire is money for a mullet setup, and might be partly why I like the Dissector so much. It's easier to break loose and slap berms than a DHR, but holds an edge leaned over about 90% as well.

I know a couple guys that have YT ebikes that came as a "mullet" but it's kinda half assed since they have like a 36mm internal rear rim and a 2.8 rear tire. Clearly the bike was designed as full 29 then they wanted to get in on the mullet trend so went with a 27.5+ rear so the geometry stayed close.

 

[vivisectxi]

just mulletized my metaTR using a WRP link. couple rides in so far. immediately felt slightly taller / steeper up front (though the link is supposed to retain the original HTA). i dropped the stem stack slightly to compensate. generally feels as expected: slightly rougher in chunk, accelerates a bit quicker, a little brappier out of corners, a tad easier to yoink onto the back wheel, etc. discernably different, but not mind blowing.

may try the stock link for giggles & see how super slack & slammed goes...

 

[bullcrew]

My reasoning for running a bigger tire in the front dates back to the XC/hardtail days, in the 90s.

I recall asking Tinker Juarez here in Buenos Aires* why most of the bikes had mismatched tires and he said it was because the front tire would draw a moar compact path where the rear one would be able to hook up the terrain better while rolling faster at the same time. Also, he said the front tire would see moar leaning as you rolled into a turn, and it made sense to have a bigger contact patch to prevent it from skidding before the rear one did.


* I think this was back in '95-96, he was recently married to Jimena Florit, and came for a promotional tour.

Similar principal for off road truck racing we make our front and rears track same path so fronts crush it down back hooks up and doesn't wash around...see it alot with these guys who build front ends 5" over and back is narrow...

Watch that crap wallow left and right horribly In softer stuff ..makes total sense

 

[djjohnr]

just mulletized my metaTR using a WRP link. couple rides in so far. immediately felt slightly taller / steeper up front (though the link is supposed to retain the original HTA). i dropped the stem stack slightly to compensate. generally feels as expected: slightly rougher in chunk, accelerates a bit quicker, a little brappier out of corners, a tad easier to yoink onto the back wheel, etc. discernably different, but not mind blowing.

may try the stock link for giggles & see how super slack & slammed goes...

I think the main selling point is not getting a wheel enema on certain steep features. The other time it's a noticeable improvement compared to full 29 is in tight corners. I'm not totally convinced that mullet is better than full 27.5.

 

[rideit]

Agreed, there are pros and cons. I swap wheels depending on where I am riding.
(between mullet and full 29-er)

 

[Andeh]

OTOH, I'm fully convinced it's better than full 27.5, but still curious to go back to full 29.

 

[djjohnr]

I'm tempted to try the Cascade link for the Bronson MX to see what +6mm of chainstay does to the handling.

 

[Andeh]

I did 6,000 ft of descending Sunday (got an ebike tow) with the 50mm stem, original stack height, and didn't die. Cornering felt a lot more normal like that. I'm a little bit disappointed because the seated position is less comfortable (longer ETT), but I can deal with that for better descending. Compared to dropping the stack 3mm, I didn't feel like I was consciously weighting the front any differently, since my arms are a certain length, pulling the bars forward pulled my weight forward too. I rode some proper steep stuff too and didn't feel like I was too far forward, so that concern was unfounded.

Anyways, thanks for the recs guys.

Thinking about what this would translate to in geometry on a hypothetical bike I'd design, I think ideally I'd like 10mm more reach (so like 455-460mm on a size medium instead of 445-450) and a 40mm stem paired with a 44mm offset fork (instead of 50mm stem - that feels a little bit twitchier), paired with a shorter effective top tube (like 580-585 instead of 595-600, with correspondingly steeper ST). Probably slightly longer CS too (like 435 instead of 430), just for a bit more stability / balance. The shorter stem would be less twitchy, but longer reach would still pull my weight forward, and shorter ETT/steeper ST would make climbing more comfortable.

 

[toodles]

Thinking about what this would translate to in geometry on a hypothetical bike I'd design, I think ideally I'd like 10mm more reach (so like 455-460mm on a size medium instead of 445-450) and a 40mm stem paired with a 44mm offset fork (instead of 50mm stem - that feels a little bit twitchier), paired with a shorter effective top tube (like 580-585 instead of 595-600, with correspondingly steeper ST). Probably slightly longer CS too (like 435 instead of 430), just for a bit more stability / balance. The shorter stem would be less twitchy, but longer reach would still pull my weight forward, and shorter ETT/steeper ST would make climbing more comfortable.

https://nukeproof.com/products/2021-mega-297-carbon

 

[Andeh]

https://nukeproof.com/products/2021-mega-297-carbon

You evil temptress! I have been informed that it is unacceptable to purchase a new bike the same year as a new truck.
The MX Patrol also ticks my geometry boxes.

 

[norbar]

Anyone had any time on the new Meta SX Mullet? Or even the Meta 29 so I can extrapolate?

Same for the Canyon Torque 29/mullet? The canyon seems a bit short in the rear for how long it is but I'll be going M vs L since I'min betwen sizes.

 

[toodles]

Haven't tried the Mullet but I've ridden the new Meta 29 and last years version as well. Both are big and very fast bikes. I actually got on better with the older version than the newer one, but that was probably due to the different owner's setups. They did slacken them out a hell of a lot though.

 

[Rhubarb]

I see there is a new Spesh Status with 140mm travel. Not many 140-150mm mullet options yet. this thread was touching on chainstay lengths for mullets and the 140mm Status is well short.

 

[djjohnr]

Just did some testing of the Cascade Link which adds 6mm of chainstay length. After time on the Megatrail MX, Bronson MX and Bronson w/Cascade link, longer stays on a mullet definitely seems to be the way to go for me. Gets the weight back on the front wheel so I can keep a more neutral riding position with a wider overall envelope for placing my weight. For comparison sake, the full 29 Smash has a 1249 wheelbase and 434 chainstay; the Bronson MX stock is 1249/439 (so on paper should feel like it has a longer backend, the opposite is true). The Cascade link brings it to 1255/445, and it now handles much like the Smash from a balance perspective, but still quicker in and out of tight corners.

 

[norbar]

Haven't tried the Mullet but I've ridden the new Meta 29 and last years version as well. Both are big and very fast bikes. I actually got on better with the older version than the newer one, but that was probably due to the different owner's setups. They did slacken them out a hell of a lot though.

I've heard the 29er is too damn long and it's hard to keep the front wheel planted. I know I had that issue on the Large Scott Endurer (I'm in between M and L size wise)

 

[toodles]

I've heard the 29er is too damn long and it's hard to keep the front wheel planted. I know I had that issue on the Large Scott Endurer (I'm in between M and L size wise)

The new SX Commencal mullet has a longer CS and shorter reach/front end than the 29er though. I think it has the makings of a very good race bike, although the long CS would make it a little less slappy

 

[HAB]

The new SX Commencal mullet has a longer CS and shorter reach/front end than the 29er though. I think it has the makings of a very good race bike, although the long CS would make it a little less slappy

Yeah, it looks better thought out. The CS on the 29er Meta AM are silly short for what it is, and it feels like it.

I do also think that mullets make chainstays feel shorter. I've ridden a couple bikes that you can convert without changing the geo much and it's pretty noticeable.

 

[toodles]

Yeah, it looks better thought out. The CS on the 29er Meta AM are silly short for what it is, and it feels like it.

I do also think that mullets make chainstays feel shorter. I've ridden a couple bikes that you can convert without changing the geo much and it's pretty noticeable.

Yeah I'd live to give one a ride and see how they go. They seem pretty dialled. Commencal pricing is starting to get a little less amazing than than it used to be though.

 

[toodles]

No big surprise Nukeproof has dropped the 275 Mega and Giga complete bike range (frame only available still) and has done a full range of 297 Mullets in the new revision - https://nukeproof.com/products/2022-mega-297-carbon

The Reactor trail bike still has a 275 and 290 range, with no mullet offering. Will be interesting if trail bikes from NP or other manufacturers end up with mullet offerings.

 

[Andeh]

Interestingly they keep a fairly short chainstay (435mm for the Mega).

I've noticed that a lot of the new eBikes (Heckler, Kinevo, Meta Power SX) which are spec'd mullets are going the long CS route, like 440-445. I wonder if this is due to trying to make the heavier bike more stable, make clearance from the motor, or whether it's deliberate to make the cornering more natural as we've been speculating here.

 

[Rhubarb]

It was a mullet Reactor that I was hoping to see for a 2022 release. I had a 275 Reactor and it was incredible, especially for 140mm travel. It’s the first ‘short’ travel bike I have ridden that didn’t ride like a short travel bike. It didn’t feel too light/skittish in the rough and took big hits like a champ. Kind of regret selling it now. Every one of the newer NPs are so quiet on the trails. A Mega blew past my mate and I last Summer and his jaw dropped at how quiet it was. 140mm mullet Reactor in al will have my money any day.
From the general CS consensus it sounds like a 29er/mullet bike should include CS length adjustment and not just geo adjustment.

 

[toodles]

From the general CS consensus it sounds like a 29er/mullet bike should include CS length adjustment and not just geo adjustment.

Its weird cos almost everyone sets and forgets HA, but I think people would play with CS length a bit.

 

[djjohnr]

I wish every bike used something like the reach adjust chips that Guerrilla Gravity uses plus adjustable chainstays. COG varies so much based on body comp and riding style; having those two adjustments would enable me to make almost any bike work for me.

 

[vivisectxi]

a couple weeks in on the WRP meta mullet. i think i'm a convert. not a huge game changer by any means, but several noticeable improvements for my specific usage that have won me over. at 6'-0", clearance with the 29" hasn't been a big issue, but a *bit* more room on steep sketchy stuff is nice. small wheel does accelerate & scoot out of corners a bit quicker. also wiggles through the steep / tight / janky corners that populate this part of the world a bit better. ease of pulling onto the rear (manuals / drops) is nice as well. wheel is a bit more stout AND lighter, and doesn't seem to be appreciably rougher in the chunk. sunshine & lollipops all round.

 

[toodles]

I see mullets as being very confused, which is not quite so surprising given the gender politics of the modern era. On any given day you can identify as a 29 or a 27.5, which for all practical purposes makes either platform obsolete! haha!

Its almost as if 25 years after motorbikes realised it, MTB designers decided that front and rear wheel dynamics and purposes are different....

 

[Dogboy]

I’ve ridden a number of different variations of mullets over the years.

Do tell. Not like there have been a plethora of commercially available options until recently. The Trek 69'r and the Specialized Big Hit are the only ones that come to mind.

 

[jstuhlman]

interesting to think about ye olde g3 adjustible rear dropouts on my uzzi vp and the ramifications they would have on modern bikes for adjusting CS lengths for mulleting . . .

 

[bullcrew]

Mullet party

 

[Andeh]

Yeah... so I found a fairly large factor on why it felt like I needed to weight my front more in order to get it to corner ok.

About a month ago, I ordered some offset bushings to tinker with, both in slacker and in the not-recommended steeper setup. They finally arrived yesterday, and when I went to install one in the steeper configuration at the front of the shock (doesn't rotate really), I checked the HTA before I installed it. 62.8 degrees. WTF. Thinking maybe my phone & tablet angle sensors were off, I double checked against a bubble level, and they were fine. I was expecting it to be more like 64 degrees. On a hunch, I grabbed a tape measure, and checked my fork stanchion - 170mm to the max the o-ring ever goes, and about 178mm from wiper to CSU. WTF. It's supposed to be 160mm. Apparently when I sent it in for warranty work last year, when they replaced the air shaft they accidentally put in a 170mm one. I contacted them today and they'll take care of the swap next time I send it in.

Anyway, I slapped the offset bushing in reversed and brought it up to a "steep" 63.1-63.2 degrees. I'm sure my bike is spontaneously going to combust because I put it in backwards. lol

 

[HAB]

Yeah... so I found a fairly large factor on why it felt like I needed to weight my front more in order to get it to corner ok.

About a month ago, I ordered some offset bushings to tinker with, both in slacker and in the not-recommended steeper setup. They finally arrived yesterday, and when I went to install one in the steeper configuration at the front of the shock (doesn't rotate really), I checked the HTA before I installed it. 62.8 degrees. WTF. Thinking maybe my phone & tablet angle sensors were off, I double checked against a bubble level, and they were fine. I was expecting it to be more like 64 degrees. On a hunch, I grabbed a tape measure, and checked my fork stanchion - 170mm to the max the o-ring ever goes, and about 178mm from wiper to CSU. WTF. It's supposed to be 160mm. Apparently when I sent it in for warranty work last year, when they replaced the air shaft they accidentally put in a 170mm one. I contacted them today and they'll take care of the swap next time I send it in.

Anyway, I slapped the offset bushing in reversed and brought it up to a "steep" 63.1-63.2 degrees. I'm sure my bike is spontaneously going to combust because I put it in backwards. lol

This is your Era? That fork uses spacers for travel adjustment, so I guess it'd be a little easier to forget to put the spacer back in than to stick some completely different spring shaft in there.

Still not great though.

 

[Andeh]

This is your Era? That fork uses spacers for travel adjustment, so I guess it'd be a little easier to forget to put the spacer back in than to stick some completely different spring shaft in there.

Still not great though.

Yeah. I asked SS how easy it was to change, but they said it needs both the travel reducer piece and a special tool. They said they'd fix it when they do the v2 upgrade, whenever they get those parts from Italy. The reason it got swapped was last year when I tried to do an oil change, the instructions had a translation error (hold nut with crescent wrench, turn allen wrench on foot stud - should have been hold allen & turn wrench), which led to me stripping out both foot studs. They fixed it under warranty, but must have grabbed an un-reduced air shaft assembly to put in by accident.

 

[Flo33]

Yeah... so I found a fairly large factor on why it felt like I needed to weight my front more in order to get it to corner ok.

That's why I ordered my Titan straight with the long dropouts which give me a nice 462 CS. On medium steep open off camber corners my rear wheel has a tendency to get loose. But look what showed up yesterday.

 

[sethimus]

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/cascade-components-announces-v4-bronson-link.html

 

[djjohnr]

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/cascade-components-announces-v4-bronson-link.html

I have one installed, works great.

 

[William42]

Looks like y'all have this mullet thing significantly more dialed than I do, but I'm pretty interested in the subject and looking at getting in on the madness.

I moved up to the PNW and I've been riding a Giant Reign 29 up here, which is a pretty classic case of "really good at being stable, going straight, holding traction, and doing a serviceable job of cornering, but never really inspiring a ton of 'fun' for lack of better word. Manuals, jumps, hard corners, popping off trail features are not it's strength."

By the looks of it, my wife wants to move back to the south east to Athens GA to do another PhD program, because one doctorate isn't enough. Riding in the Northern GA and Pisgah area, I'm thinking I'm looking at a mix of trail and enduro riding, and from what I can see, most of the purpose built MX bikes are a little longer travel than I'm looking for.

I rode a Bronson v4 and at this point I'm 100% sold on mixed wheels. The smaller rear wheel felt way easier to move around, similar to the way I remember 26", and was about a billion trillion times more fun than my reign even riding it on pretty rocky socal trails. I'm leaning towards a little bit less travel if possible though.

The bronson MX looks like the most solid option (with a little more travel than I want), I won't buy Specialized because fuck that company, otherwise the Status would be on the short list too. Other bikes I'm looking at are grabbing a pivot mach 5.5, Yeti SB140, and a Transition Scout, and mulleting one of those.

After reading this thread though, I'm a bit concerned about shortness of the chainstay being an issue with those. The Bronson I rode was an XL and had 442mm chainstays, and it sounds like some of you are already throwing a cascade link on there to get that longer.

While I like experimenting and I have some money to throw at this, I'm not sure I'm excited to throw 4k at buying a new frame if theres a high probability of it being shitty.

Looking for hand holding, sweet nothings, and somebody telling me what to do so I don't have to put a ton of thought into it.

 

[djjohnr]

I rode a Bronson v4 and at this point I'm 100% sold on mixed wheels. The smaller rear wheel felt way easier to move around, similar to the way I remember 26", and was about a billion trillion times more fun than my reign even riding it on pretty rocky socal trails. I'm leaning towards a little bit less travel if possible though.

The bronson MX looks like the most solid option (with a little more travel than I want), I won't buy Specialized because fuck that company, otherwise the Status would be on the short list too. Other bikes I'm looking at are grabbing a pivot mach 5.5, Yeti SB140, and a Transition Scout, and mulleting one of those.

After reading this thread though, I'm a bit concerned about shortness of the chainstay being an issue with those. The Bronson I rode was an XL and had 442mm chainstays, and it sounds like some of you are already throwing a cascade link on there to get that longer.

The front-wheel weighting thing on the Bronson MX revealed itself pretty quickly for me. If you spent some time on it already and it felt good cornering you should be fine; what feels good geometry wise can be pretty personal. Also, if you care more about cornering speed than carrying speed through the rough I think full 27.5 is better as you can keep the chainstays shorter. Mullet is a decent compromise, but when done right (proper size chainstays for balance) it leans more towards getting the rollover benefits than the cornering benefits (although there's also the clearance benefit).

 

[Andeh]

Looks like y'all have this mullet thing significantly more dialed than I do, but I'm pretty interested in the subject and looking at getting in on the madness.

I moved up to the PNW and I've been riding a Giant Reign 29 up here, which is a pretty classic case of "really good at being stable, going straight, holding traction, and doing a serviceable job of cornering, but never really inspiring a ton of 'fun' for lack of better word. Manuals, jumps, hard corners, popping off trail features are not it's strength."

By the looks of it, my wife wants to move back to the south east to Athens GA to do another PhD program, because one doctorate isn't enough. Riding in the Northern GA and Pisgah area, I'm thinking I'm looking at a mix of trail and enduro riding, and from what I can see, most of the purpose built MX bikes are a little longer travel than I'm looking for.

I rode a Bronson v4 and at this point I'm 100% sold on mixed wheels. The smaller rear wheel felt way easier to move around, similar to the way I remember 26", and was about a billion trillion times more fun than my reign even riding it on pretty rocky socal trails. I'm leaning towards a little bit less travel if possible though.

The bronson MX looks like the most solid option (with a little more travel than I want), I won't buy Specialized because fuck that company, otherwise the Status would be on the short list too. Other bikes I'm looking at are grabbing a pivot mach 5.5, Yeti SB140, and a Transition Scout, and mulleting one of those.

After reading this thread though, I'm a bit concerned about shortness of the chainstay being an issue with those. The Bronson I rode was an XL and had 442mm chainstays, and it sounds like some of you are already throwing a cascade link on there to get that longer.

While I like experimenting and I have some money to throw at this, I'm not sure I'm excited to throw 4k at buying a new frame if theres a high probability of it being shitty.

Looking for hand holding, sweet nothings, and somebody telling me what to do so I don't have to put a ton of thought into it.

If you want short travel mullet, the best looking geometry would be a GG Shred Dogg MX.

https://ridegg.com/products/mixed-wheel-options-29-27-5?option=Shred+Dogg+MX+-+140%2F150mm

(You can just buy a Shred Dogg frame, ask for the short lower headset cup, and build it up yourself too.) Lots of options how you choose to set it up... 130r/140f, 140f/r, 130r/150f, 140r/150f. The 130 rear setup will be a lot more poppy, 140 more plush.

 

[William42]

Thanks for the recs!

So the tricky part is that I only rode the bronson once, and it was on a trail that was pure chunk. I liked how quick it felt and how easy it was to accelerate and move the back end around a lot. I still really like the big front end, so I'm not looking to abandon 29ers entirely, it just felt like a smaller wheel in the back end worked better for how I wanted the bike to behave. I'm not racing or even really pushing it these days, and climbing speed or even DH speed isn't really a thing, just having fun and feeling solid.

What am I missing that makes the Shred Dog MX so good Andeh? It appears to have an even shorter chainstay than the 27.5 bikes I was considering, and isn't the thought that a longer chainstay goes a long way towards a "best of both worlds" feel?

 

[Andeh]

Yeah, the chainstay is pretty short, but it's got the travel range you want with good head & seat angles, and reasonable BB height. Off the top of my head, I'm struggling to think of another short travel (<140mm) MX setup. I'm assuming you wanted shorter travel based on your post. If 150+ is fine, then yeah, I'd get a Bronson or something.

A Scout or SB 5.5 won't mullet well - BB will get really high and head/seat angles will get crazy slack. The SB140 numbers look "ok" but not great if you run it with a 140 fork.

The longer CS thing, upon more experimentation, seems to be more something if you like to ride pretty rearward. After I started focusing on having a more centered/forward bias, the handling felt a lot more balanced.