What numbers on the SB140 look bad if I run it with a 140 fork? Still trying to figure out the geo of "what works and what doesn't" for MX bikes.
Mullet Madness
- Thread starter Andeh
- Start date
I use this tool to check: https://geo.syn.bike/
The SB140 with 140 fork has decent angles, but the BB height is 347. I find that I like my 140 bikes to be more like 340, 160 is ok at like 345. I don't notice it so much on straight stuff, but railing berms I much prefer a really low BB.
>digs around frantically in his photos to find the "rodemonkey princess and the pea" photoshop he made...<
I wish my princess sensitivity to suspension & geometry translated into riding skill.
100% agree. I absolutely loved my reactor 275 RS when going downhill, it was super poppy but felt stiff enough for full on DH. Only reason I soldit was because the slack seat angle killed my back. Desperate for a remake in mullet with a 78 degree seat anglr.
I got about 15 good rides on the new Bronson before the snow came here up north. Still need to get it up to speed on more technical rocky tracks, but cornering wise, it's a beast. You can brake later and knife the turn much better compared to the 275 (Bronson). Much better bike on steep stuff also. The balance with the front 29er wheel leaves you in a better position to feel confident tackling steep awkward stuff. Slabs also.
I'd be curious to try a cascade, as the longer CS makes sense relative to the mullet characteristics. Pretty steep price point to experiment and not like it though. @djjohnr , did you change the shock when you went Cascade? And what travel option did you end up settling on?
No, went up in spring rate but didn't need a revalve. I'm running it at 160mm w/60mm stroke.
Interesting observations on the Bronson MX - https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes/mountain-bikes/full-suspension-mountain-bikes/2022-santa-cruz-bronson-cc-mx-x01-axs-rsv-review/
"The combination of geometry figures, including stack height, wheelbase, chainstay, reach, head tube angle and bottom bracket height – just a few millimetres here and there – are both shorter and longer compared to other bikes. This, I think, gives the Bronson its high-feeling front end."
"How does this make it ride? In some scenarios, it was inspired, but in others, quite frustrating.
I found in some turns, whether they were flat, bermed, sharp, open, on steep or mellow terrain, the bike just wouldn’t corner how I wanted it to.
Its wheels felt like they were carving two different radii; normally the front one running high up a turn with the rear one staying lower. At times, this made cornering an unsatisfying affair because I couldn’t make the bike hook around a turn or get the front wheel to ‘tuck’ underneath me like I wanted and expected it to.
I found I could counteract this by loading the front wheel harder and more confidently than I would usually, but this caused the rear end to go very light.
This meant cat-like reflexes and weight shifts were needed to keep the back end from losing control, although it felt great when I was able to drift it and subsequently catch it before totally losing control."
"When riding at higher speeds or on technical trails, the issue was further compounded by the fairly conservative head tube angle, reach and wheelbase, at least compared to bikes like the Specialized Stumpjumper Evo with its 63-degree head angle and 1,261mm wheelbase.
The steeper head tube angle encouraged a more over-the-back riding position.
None of this helped with confidence on steep, fast or gnarly trails, or overcame the high front end.
And on those steeper trails, the head angle meant the steering had some twitchiness to it. This encouraged me to lean further back than I would usually, making it hard to pick and commit to lines without an element of hesitation that longer, slacker bikes don’t create.
So the front end produced a bit of a catch-22, where the perfect setup felt almost unattainable.
It was possible to ride around the problem by slowing down and focusing on bouncing across the trail and through tech sections or committing to riding over the front and living with the lively rear end."
"The combination of geometry figures, including stack height, wheelbase, chainstay, reach, head tube angle and bottom bracket height – just a few millimetres here and there – are both shorter and longer compared to other bikes. This, I think, gives the Bronson its high-feeling front end."
"How does this make it ride? In some scenarios, it was inspired, but in others, quite frustrating.
I found in some turns, whether they were flat, bermed, sharp, open, on steep or mellow terrain, the bike just wouldn’t corner how I wanted it to.
Its wheels felt like they were carving two different radii; normally the front one running high up a turn with the rear one staying lower. At times, this made cornering an unsatisfying affair because I couldn’t make the bike hook around a turn or get the front wheel to ‘tuck’ underneath me like I wanted and expected it to.
I found I could counteract this by loading the front wheel harder and more confidently than I would usually, but this caused the rear end to go very light.
This meant cat-like reflexes and weight shifts were needed to keep the back end from losing control, although it felt great when I was able to drift it and subsequently catch it before totally losing control."
"When riding at higher speeds or on technical trails, the issue was further compounded by the fairly conservative head tube angle, reach and wheelbase, at least compared to bikes like the Specialized Stumpjumper Evo with its 63-degree head angle and 1,261mm wheelbase.
The steeper head tube angle encouraged a more over-the-back riding position.
None of this helped with confidence on steep, fast or gnarly trails, or overcame the high front end.
And on those steeper trails, the head angle meant the steering had some twitchiness to it. This encouraged me to lean further back than I would usually, making it hard to pick and commit to lines without an element of hesitation that longer, slacker bikes don’t create.
So the front end produced a bit of a catch-22, where the perfect setup felt almost unattainable.
It was possible to ride around the problem by slowing down and focusing on bouncing across the trail and through tech sections or committing to riding over the front and living with the lively rear end."
interesting comments....I'm on a 27.5 Bronson and have only ridden the MX around a parking lot, and the front end definitely felt really high to me, but then again I am not a 29er rider and am only 5'9" so haven't really ever felt compelled to get on the 29 train. Need to give it a go on the trails, a few friends are on the MX and really like it, but a couple them ride 29ers a lot too.
Yeah, I hadn't really thought about how having a moderate head angle (close to 65) on a mullet would make the added weight on the front a problem on steeps.
I recently discovered that I've been running a 170mm fork basically as long as I've run the mullet (long story). So I had a 62.8 HTA *before* I put in a reversed offset bushing, which brought it up to 63.1. So when I started weighting the front more, I didn't have any trade-off in stability on steeps because it's so slack.
I recently discovered that I've been running a 170mm fork basically as long as I've run the mullet (long story). So I had a 62.8 HTA *before* I put in a reversed offset bushing, which brought it up to 63.1. So when I started weighting the front more, I didn't have any trade-off in stability on steeps because it's so slack.
The '19 Bronson I had might have been the best handling bike I've ever owned; I just wanted it to be a little bit longer.
interesting . . . i already feel like my nomad rides a bit high in the front and like the front wheel pushes/washes out easily in corners unless i really focus on keeping my center of balance back. was considering mulleting it for shits and giggles, but all the comments here make me think that would only exacerbate the issue.
There's typically enough difference in head tube length between a 27.5 and 29" bike to keep the front end height relative, but I find a 29" bike with a 160mm or longer fork tends to be pretty tall no matter how short the HT is. Still room to play with headset stack/stem/bar height to probably make it feel closer to your preference.
I personally find that if I feel like the front wheel is pushing, it's because I don't have enough weight on the front. (A bit more weight = more pressure = more grip.) When I am being a chicken and riding off the back, I notice the front gets light and won't go where/turn as fast as I want.
That's generally the idea. Some bike require more of that than others though, or more specifically require you to be more active with fore/aft weight shifts and/or have smaller windows for those fore/aft shits to keep even traction on both tires.
I want to try one of those. Also, Commencal has been doing the mullet thing for awhile now, and the Meta SX is super long/slack.
That bike reviewer sounds like their riding style doesn't involve keeping their elbows up and out.
Mixed wheelsize bikes seem to be a favorite with riders, but don't have the attributes passengers are looking for(OMG MY BACK WHEEL BREAKS LOOSE)
I searched Roots and Rain, and nobody named Alex Evans has had a decent DH or Enduro result since about 2011, so, ultimately, this guys gripe is HELLA Ridemonkey DH forum!
Mixed wheelsize bikes seem to be a favorite with riders, but don't have the attributes passengers are looking for(OMG MY BACK WHEEL BREAKS LOOSE)
I searched Roots and Rain, and nobody named Alex Evans has had a decent DH or Enduro result since about 2011, so, ultimately, this guys gripe is HELLA Ridemonkey DH forum!
Well, finally looked at the pictures in the review- this guy thinks the front end is hard to weight because his handlebars are too wide.
I know you know your shit…. However, I know Alex well and have ridden countless DH laps with him. He lived in Morzine for over a decade and was one of the fastest locals on Le Pleney. He‘s so fast that I doubt he has any technique issues. Whatever his techniques are they work pretty good from my position.
Sketchy, wet, off camber, steeps are where he shines. I didn’t read the review but Alex is an amazing DH rider for sure. I bet he just couldn’t make the bike go as fast as he wanted.
800mm wide bars on a “playful” bike is gonna make weight shifts feel more extreme, especially for a normal “large” size rider.
I have been driving skid steers all day in texas lately, and just listened to a few podcasts with riders who live in or regularly ride or race the Tweed Valley.
That test bike has bars that are a whopping 50-60mm wider than what fast ex-dh pro locals seem to ride.
I could see being cautious about cutting down the carbon bars on a $9k bike that you don’t own, but it’s disingenuous talking about the need for “extreme” weight shifts as a function of the bike design when trimming the bars down will make fore-aft weight shifts require less extreme shifts in center of mass.
I have been driving skid steers all day in texas lately, and just listened to a few podcasts with riders who live in or regularly ride or race the Tweed Valley.
That test bike has bars that are a whopping 50-60mm wider than what fast ex-dh pro locals seem to ride.
I could see being cautious about cutting down the carbon bars on a $9k bike that you don’t own, but it’s disingenuous talking about the need for “extreme” weight shifts as a function of the bike design when trimming the bars down will make fore-aft weight shifts require less extreme shifts in center of mass.
This would kinda make sense knowing steep Le Pleney trails given he basically complains the bike isn't slacker for the steeps and shorter in the back (something less of an issue on steep trails).
You have probably tried more bikes than I did in my search for "what I like about new geo before buying a new bike" but it seems with the new crop of super long top tubes + 29 and mullet wheel set the front/back weight distribution often is a problem with many bikes. Though weirdly it seems like the balance was off for him on both ends or I don't understand the review correctly.
I'm with @SuspectDevice on the 800mm bars. Unless Alex has a weird body it's overkill. That bar width made sense on old short AF dh bikes but now it seems less so.
Also is it only me or is it even harder to find the right size bike for you now? So many reviews I see people going "we hated the bike but then tried a different size and loved it". The worst part of it is that the bikes I'm interested in I can't try and I've missed on sizes a few times on rentals in the past 2 years.
I've heard mixed feedback on the Status, some people love it and others don't like the handling due to the short rear end/long front end. In the end you just need to try for yourself.
I've "mulleted" 3 bikes in my life time. I really like it. Maybe I'm not cool.
In a nut shell (for me):
1) Cornering is easier (less gyro forces when leaning over).
2) Pumping is better (a smaller wheel pumps better).
There, I said it. Prove me I'm wrong
In a nut shell (for me):
1) Cornering is easier (less gyro forces when leaning over).
2) Pumping is better (a smaller wheel pumps better).
There, I said it. Prove me I'm wrong
curious. did you reduce travel a hair when doing so? i.e., if i mullet my nomad, should i go from 180 up front to 170?I've "mulleted" 3 bikes in my life time. I really like it. Maybe I'm not cool.
In a nut shell (for me):
1) Cornering is easier (less gyro forces when leaning over).
2) Pumping is better (a smaller wheel pumps better).
There, I said it. Prove me I'm wrong
I think he went from a 29er to a mullet. You're already one step ahead.
I started with a 29er in all cases.
Edit: I never saw the need to change the fork travel. One of the reasons to mullet is to slacken headtube. If you're into that. Some things I read where people get all crazy on "keeping angles". I never felt the need. One of my bikes even had a flip chip for that. Never used it. You know what you like the best. Not some stranger from the internet
....Give it a shot and experiment!It lowered the BB, which was great cuz lower CoG.... except on super rocky techy climbs. But if you know how to ride a bike, it's not a big deal.
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I mulleted an Enduro EVO a number of years back - 27.5/26 and dug it, short chainstays and all.
I also didn't understand that point of the review. Granted I don't have a ton of time on the bike since I got it at the end of last season, (about 15 rides), I was never struck with needing to exagerate the weight shifts in order to weigh and steer the bike properly. Quite the contratry, I was surprised at how it easily responded to the various inputs. It turns really aggressively , encouraging you to knife and drift turns; manuals are a breeze also. I'm sure it's not the fastest race bike, but it's a hoot to ride and hoon around.
While I'm sure the reviewer is an awesome bike rider, some bikes just don't jive with certain riders. 1st world problem 4 sure !
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2022 Canyon Spectral Mullet CF 8 CLLCTV Bike
Reviews, ratings, specifications, weight, price and more for the 2022 Canyon Spectral Mullet CF 8 CLLCTV Bike
Not bad
Thats just chucking a 29er fork on a 27.5 bike though isn't it? Not really a flip chip or a ground up mullet design.You need to add the new Evil Insergant to your list
Yeah, but the fact that Canyon recommends a size small for people shorter than 175cm hurts my feelings...2022 Canyon Spectral Mullet CF 8 CLLCTV Bike
Reviews, ratings, specifications, weight, price and more for the 2022 Canyon Spectral Mullet CF 8 CLLCTV Bikewww.vitalmtb.com
Not bad
Yeah, that's pretty much why I didn't add it. It was an obvious phone-in. I mean... 358mm BB height, come on.
I just happened to measure the Demo 29/27.5 last night @ 345mm.