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Mullet Madness

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
Mulleting it will make it considerably slacker and lower, so you want to steepen the HT to correct it. I suggested a +1.5 degree angleset because whenever I plug those into the calculator the resultant change ends up being a bit less than expected.

The offset bushings seem to stay put if you have them on the end of the shock that's not experiencing rotation from the rear triangle movement. So the front mount in horizontal configuration and bottom mount in vertical. I've been running a reversed one on the front eyelet of my Megatrail for several months now and it hasn't moved.

I'm not certain but I want to say that the offset bushings change the BB height more than anglesets do, for a given amount of HT change. So maybe the best for getting back to stock would be like +1 degree angleset and 1 reversed offset bushing.
Thanks for all your help! Much appreciated!
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
981
962
So I assume I have to make the mods first, measure and calculate what changes need to be made to get it close to factory measurements? I'm usually a bolt it on, adjust it once and ride it how it is kinda person. This is very foreign territory for me.
This calc might be a bit more intuitive. https://geo.syn.bike/ Put in the stock geometry in the "Nom." column, then make all of the changes you're considering in the left column (706 for the rear tire size, +1.5 for the head tube angle change). The "Mod." column will show the final result.

Plugging in those changes for default values says that you'll end up with the HT being 0.2 deg steeper and the BB height still dropping 9mm.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,578
2,001
Seattle
Williams Racing Products makes mullet dropouts for the generation of the Supreme that had bolt on dropouts, if we're talking about that one:

 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
Williams Racing Products makes mullet dropouts for the generation of the Supreme that had bolt on dropouts, if we're talking about that one:

Unfortunately mine is the newer model that came out midyear 2020 so they are fixed dropouts like the current ones. Bummer, that would have quickly solved everything.
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
This calc might be a bit more intuitive. https://geo.syn.bike/ Put in the stock geometry in the "Nom." column, then make all of the changes you're considering in the left column (706 for the rear tire size, +1.5 for the head tube angle change). The "Mod." column will show the final result.

Plugging in those changes for default values says that you'll end up with the HT being 0.2 deg steeper and the BB height still dropping 9mm.
This is what I got, does this look correct?
Screenshot (2).png
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
This calc might be a bit more intuitive. https://geo.syn.bike/ Put in the stock geometry in the "Nom." column, then make all of the changes you're considering in the left column (706 for the rear tire size, +1.5 for the head tube angle change). The "Mod." column will show the final result.

Plugging in those changes for default values says that you'll end up with the HT being 0.2 deg steeper and the BB height still dropping 9mm.
Here are the numbers for my frame, it’s a large
8BB99B8A-0901-4123-935E-5B50470FCCF9.jpeg
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
981
962
I think you need to change your original BB drop to "-11.5" instead of "11.5" but otherwise yes, looks right.
 

carlos1

Chimp
Nov 14, 2011
55
59
Czech Republic
Unfortunately mine is the newer model that came out midyear 2020 so they are fixed dropouts like the current ones. Bummer, that would have quickly solved everything.
Hi, its a bummer, that you are not somewhere in EU, I could send you my rear end of my 29/27 supreme, i have cracked the front triangle and getting a warranty replacement frame, so they wanted to cut thru the BBarea, so that the frame couldnt be sold, but the rear is stil ok.
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
32,119
378
Bay Area, California
Hi, its a bummer, that you are not somewhere in EU, I could send you my rear end of my 29/27 supreme, i have cracked the front triangle and getting a warranty replacement frame, so they wanted to cut thru the BBarea, so that the frame couldnt be sold, but the rear is stil ok.
Out of curiosity what would u want to ship it if it’s doable?
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,517
5,269
No no, it will be fine! It'll ride great just not as good as it could have been if you opted for the real deal, with secret sauce.


Edit...

Watchu getting?
It's a TOR Zenith but with some slight changes to make it a mixer and has less travel at 110mm, oh and a slacker HA.
I'll use the fork off my HT an put that just back to 650b front and rear, it was less fun with mixed wheel sizes, faster, but less fun.
 

boostindoubles

Nacho Libre
Mar 16, 2004
7,792
6,085
Yakistan
Took the Mullet out on home turf for a dusker quickie and ended up taking a KOM on a short segment. I previously held it but that was lost over 5 years ago. This bike continues to blow my mind with how it responds to my inputs.

This thing can carve so much harder than any mtb I've ever had. I am going to leave the bars where they're at. They're 800 and I'll likely be cutting them down a bit.

I am impressed with the ride characteristics.

Resized_20220720_204938.jpeg
 
Last edited:

boostindoubles

Nacho Libre
Mar 16, 2004
7,792
6,085
Yakistan
Ok one thing that's becoming apparent with this Mullet is how little it needs to be worked to get it to do stuff. I may have mentioned this somewhere but I pulled off a lip on the shakedown and almost landed on my back. I pushed off a lip and nollied on accident - almost leaving my bike on the lip as if I was lake jumping. Another lip I just hung on and it was like being shot out of a cannon. If I man handle it around turns it rides way into the inside corner.

The more effort I put into making it do stuff the worse it rides but when I just hang loose and focus on being setup for what's coming it shines in ways I couldn't have imagined.

Is this something other mixed wheel bike riders are experiencing?
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,757
4,629
Champery, Switzerland
Ok one thing that's becoming apparent with this Mullet is how little it needs to be worked to get it to do stuff. I may have mentioned this somewhere but I pulled off a lip on the shakedown and almost landed on my back. I pushed off a lip and nollied on accident - almost leaving my bike on the lip as if I was lake jumping. Another lip I just hung on and it was like being shot out of a cannon. If I man handle it around turns it rides way into the inside corner.

The more effort I put into making it do stuff the worse it rides but when I just hang loose and focus on being setup for what's coming it shines in ways I couldn't have imagined.

Is this something other mixed wheel bike riders are experiencing?
Is this your first time with a 29 front wheel? Sounds like the combo of the high bb makes her pop and ride really maneuverable and the 29 front wheel maker her stable. What’s the reach and chain stay length? The reach must be pretty long to stabilize the short CS and high bb.

She looks real short in the back like 400 or 410mm. Bb is at 345mm right? I don’t think it is just the mixed wheel but more the geo and the big stable front wheel.

Sounds like a fun ride!

I’ve been making mullet frames with higher bb‘s on each version. I’m liking the higher bb so I can run a grippier and softer setup without out having too much weight on the rear tire and not enough on the front. Loading the front tire is important and sometimes a low bb with a tall a2c 29 fork is too tall to get balance and grip, imo.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,517
5,269
Is this your first time with a 29 front wheel? Sounds like the combo of the high bb makes her pop and ride really maneuverable and the 29 front wheel maker her stable. What’s the reach and chain stay length? The reach must be pretty long to stabilize the short CS and high bb.

She looks real short in the back like 400 or 410mm. Bb is at 345mm right? I don’t think it is just the mixed wheel but more the geo and the big stable front wheel.

Sounds like a fun ride!

I’ve been making mullet frames with higher bb‘s on each version. I’m liking the higher bb so I can run a grippier and softer setup without out having too much weight on the rear tire and not enough on the front. Loading the front tire is important and sometimes a low bb with a tall a2c 29 fork is too tall to get balance and grip, imo.
Hahaha, you will have snipers on you if you are asking about geo on a Mullet.
I'd love to get Marino to make an exact copy in steel just for shits and giggles.

My mulleted Marino has almost no character and that's how I like it, I'm Mr Vanilla.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,757
4,629
Champery, Switzerland
Hahaha, you will have snipers on you if you are asking about geo on a Mullet.
I'd love to get Marino to make an exact copy in steel just for shits and giggles.

My mulleted Marino has almost no character and that's how I like it, I'm Mr Vanilla.
Haha, I’m wondering if he will side with RM and give us the geo or if Myles‘ wishes will be respected. Judging by the rear tire overlap with the chainring it must me 410-420mm CS. I think I’m getting an idea of the style of geo.

It must have a low offset fork too judging by how it corners and flops into the lean.

I work for the lizards so I’m used to snipers.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
6,517
5,269
Haha, I’m wondering if he will side with RM and give us the geo or if Myles‘ wishes will be respected. Judging by the rear tire overlap with the chainring it must me 410-420mm CS. I think I’m getting an idea of the style of geo.

It must have a low offset fork too judging by how it corners and flops into the lean.

I work for the lizards so I’m used to snipers.
Yeah it looks pretty different, short back end mullet with a 150mm fork and a decent length HT, should manual pretty well.
This is the only side on shot I have of mine mulleted, fork is 130mm coz I ran out of spacers, HA measures 62deg static.
IMG_20220722_181811.jpg
 

boostindoubles

Nacho Libre
Mar 16, 2004
7,792
6,085
Yakistan
Yes, it's the 1st bike I've owned with a 29 wheel. Some of the characteristics I can pin on the wheel and others I am saying wtf is going on. Not in a bad way though I just never knew a bike could have such a dramatically different ride quality than what I have ridden for so long.

I think the fork is 140mm. When I was building this, Miles told me that the ideal offset for the Honeymaker is 42mm.

I measured the bb at 13.5 and the CS came in at 445. Did I say 445? I meant 425, or was it 430? Shit, I can't remember. Miles and The Mullet Assassin will be coming for me soon.

The chainring is a 36t oval.
 

boostindoubles

Nacho Libre
Mar 16, 2004
7,792
6,085
Yakistan
@buckoW yes its striking how much more weight I can bring forward and really, how much weight I need to bring forward to appropriately weight the front end. I'm used to basically riding over the back wheel but this bike demands a balanced body position.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,315
1,557
Warsaw :/
Yes, it's the 1st bike I've owned with a 29 wheel. Some of the characteristics I can pin on the wheel and others I am saying wtf is going on. Not in a bad way though I just never knew a bike could have such a dramatically different ride quality than what I have ridden for so long.

I think the fork is 140mm. When I was building this, Miles told me that the ideal offset for the Honeymaker is 42mm.

I measured the bb at 13.5 and the CS came in at 445. Did I say 445? I meant 425, or was it 430? Shit, I can't remember. Miles and The Mullet Assassin will be coming for me soon.

The chainring is a 36t oval.
425/430 is short unless the TT is short by modern standards it may be the cause for some of the unbalanced feel. I did test quite a few bikes pre pulling the trigger on the Capra and I noticed that with modern TT's anything < 435 felt weird and it was hard to keep both wheels properly weighted. You can probably adjust your position to this or play a bit with the cockpit. Then again I tend to like longer chainstays. Not old Canondale long but longer.
 

boostindoubles

Nacho Libre
Mar 16, 2004
7,792
6,085
Yakistan
@norbar It actually feels more balanced than most bikes I've ridden, I guess that's what's so different. I usually have stacks under my stem and tall bars. I actually flipped my stem and have basically flat bars, they have a little rise but not much. It's kick ass now to have such a compact cockpit and still feel up and on top of the bike when pedaling. It pops and hops like a DJ bike.

The thing I am still adjusting to is how little input is required to get around turns. I am constantly over steering high and to the inside. The bike wants less inputs from me and just wants to be ridden.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
53,948
19,688
Sleazattle
425/430 is short unless the TT is short by modern standards it may be the cause for some of the unbalanced feel. I did test quite a few bikes pre pulling the trigger on the Capra and I noticed that with modern TT's anything < 435 felt weird and it was hard to keep both wheels properly weighted. You can probably adjust your position to this or play a bit with the cockpit. Then again I tend to like longer chainstays. Not old Canondale long but longer.
My rather long Chromag Rootdown has 415mm chainstays and it possibly the funnest bike I have owned. That unbalanced geo is probably better suited for a hardtail.
 

rideit

Bob the Builder
Aug 24, 2004
22,814
11,102
In the cleavage of the Tetons
Just ordered the new modular front shock mount for the Altitude, it’s supposed to correct the geometry for a 27.5 wheel. I think it will help, there were too many pedal strikes, even with 165 cranks. (Yeah, I know, my pedal technique sux)
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,315
1,557
Warsaw :/
My rather long Chromag Rootdown has 415mm chainstays and it possibly the funnest bike I have owned. That unbalanced geo is probably better suited for a hardtail.
Different riding you do on a hardtail too. On really fast tracks front wheel traction becomes an issue. I think we are in a weird spot with TT to CS balance in Enduro bikes. In hardtails and DH bikes it's reasonable but in Enduro I think the geo on some bikes is not suited for the intended use of the bike
 

rideit

Bob the Builder
Aug 24, 2004
22,814
11,102
In the cleavage of the Tetons
Hot Damn, it was worth every penny of $139. Woke the bike right up. Mullet before was ok, but HTA was too slack, and BB too low. This fixed it. Sublime in the corners, and still climbed well. No downsides that I can see yet. Except maybe rollover angle for stupid chunk, but I don’t think it’s that big of a deal for most riders.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,757
4,629
Champery, Switzerland
Hot Damn, it was worth every penny of $139. Woke the bike right up. Mullet before was ok, but HTA was too slack, and BB too low. This fixed it. Sublime in the corners, and still climbed well. No downsides that I can see yet. Except maybe rollover angle for stupid chunk, but I don’t think it’s that big of a deal for most riders.
Sweet!
I raised my bb up on my mullet recently and it was a huge improvement everywhere.