[buckoW]

?Question?

240lbs raw and around 250lbs geared up...I have 70psi or so in fork and 1.75" out of 8" into sag...so 22% or so....I should be around 85 to 90psi normally...this is what got me to thinking about it...I have an avy cart in it so dialing it in any way I want is possible...but a baseline seems to be getting me on super nasty chatter...(granted it could also be the rear isn't playing nice with front end)

Just banging ideas around and mullet and weight distribution came to mind.

Marine Cabirou runs 75psi as well as my wife. I think there‘s a problem with your fork if 70 is supporting your weight. Something must be wrong. I can’t imagine that an Avy cart makes up for 20psi. Do you have all the tokens? Lowering bars seems to be better than softening fork. You can also go up a spring rate or two in the rear. 70psi seems way off?

 

[bullcrew]

Marine Cabirou runs 75psi as well as my wife. I think there‘s a problem with your fork if 70 is supporting your weight. Something must be wrong. I can’t imagine that an Avy cart makes up for 20psi. Do you have all the tokens? Lowering bars seems to be better than softening fork. You can also go up a spring rate or two in the rear. 70psi seems way off?

Yeah that's what I thought I have zero tokens in it...it seems to start of linear...I lowered the front end into clamps just now checked sag I'm about 25% I was 22%.
It's plenty plush I use travel on hits and feels good in corners ....it's the rapid hits of doll heads that pack up....I know avy valving is alot more specific as far as range and rate.. they are tuned together...so I'll add a little psi maybe a token or 2 to help kickback mid stroke on rebound...
I trust craigs tunes...

Yeah I'm 15% sag (approx) at 90psi...unless my good ol shock pump is bad which it matched my nitrogen tank pressure in shocks but always a possibility...

What would you start with as far as air tokens...

I will put 85psi in fork set sag at 15 to 20% then need to figure out air tokens....it could be it's just Too soft mid stroke to overcome base flow of slow speed circuit.. or even fighting stack on piston.....

Also that was my though rear may blow through travel not allowing weight to shift forward...it's a ccdb air I can set psi in it up as well as increase slow speed a bit to help transition weight..

I'll add some psi to rear and add some slow speed compression as well....

 

[6thElement]

^ Make sure you're talking about comparable versions of the fork/airspring.

 

[bullcrew]

^ Make sure you're talking about comparable versions of the fork/airspring.

Do love the way mullet feels been mx since I was 3 so it's normal for the dropped back feel...

My boxxer wc with avy...it was dialed..but my comparison isn't to it...it's to what feels good but I will use some of the settings on boxxer air to carry over ..just 1 more tool in arsenal to try ..
The fox 40 is air as well and it rides real similar in alot of the aspects which I know is just dialing it in...it's the high speed chatter I'm fighting. The boxxer wc (air) killed chatter...I ran lower psi than normal but it did ramp more than the fox I assume it's progression was air chamber and spacers...it ramped and avy controlled it......

So fox will get some PSI 2 volume spacers and I'll recheck

Going to throw the avy woodie on the bike later after I try and dial it in first....

 

[Andeh]

I think what you're saying / thinking about weight bias shifting rear is essentially the same as if you put in an equivalent angleset (like a 1*), at least descending. Front end gets slacker / further away, and the fork will also experience a bit more binding on flatter trails. Wheelbase and BB height changes will also affect COG (I think back relative to front wheel). COG will go down converting from 29/29 and up from 27.5/27.5.

I'm surprised that Transition went as low as they did for the new Patrol, even with 165mm cranks. I guess they wanted to account for freeriders throwing on 170 or dual crown forks, and not wanting those to get silly high? Although in those scenarios it starts getting crazy slack.

 

[bullcrew]

I think what you're saying / thinking about weight bias shifting rear is essentially the same as if you put in an equivalent angleset (like a 1*), at least descending. Front end gets slacker / further away, and the fork will also experience a bit more binding on flatter trails. Wheelbase and BB height changes will also affect COG (I think back relative to front wheel). COG will go down converting from 29/29 and up from 27.5/27.5.

I'm surprised that Transition went as low as they did for the new Patrol, even with 165mm cranks. I guess they wanted to account for freeriders throwing on 170 or dual crown forks, and not wanting those to get silly high? Although in those scenarios it starts getting crazy slack.

This is exactly what I was saying...weight distribution shifts to rear and rakes front out making more diagonal force less colum load...

I have raked out bikes in past but it has got to be a PSI thing possibly air tokens to get progressive. Too light and it won't overcome the tune...
My bb height is actually low thank goodness and I run a 170 crank which is longer than I'd like but long legs can't soon fast with smaller rotation..

85 psi and 2 tokens is where I'm going with it right now....

 

[buckoW]

85 psi and 2 tokens is where I'm going with it right now....

That sounds better but keep in mind I’ve never ridden an Avy cart.

I have ridden every version of the 40 and I never rode less than 80psi, fwiw. I’m a lot lighter than you at 175-180lbs. Maybe focusing on fork sag is giving you a bad direction? It is hard to repeat accurately, imo. I never use fork sag but more look at how much fork travel you are using compared to the rear in order to get some balance.

Is she tucking in on you occasionally in rough corners? I’d be surprised if she’s pushing wide at those pressures. That’s another way to look at it.

 

[rideit]

Slightly off topic, but here goes. I went to 165 cranks because of the mullet action. Today I did my first real climb, and I could feel the difference. It was kind of like losing one tooth off of the rear cog, IMO. However, the bike is a lot heavier now with dh casings, I was feeling that, too.
my best time on this climb is something like 24 minutes, tonight was 36. Yeesh. However, I did get a 16 fastest on a long trail I have only ridden once before, 8 years ago. So pointed down, it still shreds. There were sections going balls out in the 30/10, and the 165‘s showed their shortcomings in a feeling of ‘lack of leverage’...but I could have just been spent.
More testing and navel gazing is in order.

 

[bullcrew]

Yeah I set it at 85psi 2 tokens and it ramps back alot faster on slow speed rebound...it's around 20%

That sounds better but keep in mind I’ve never ridden an Avy cart.

I have ridden every version of the 40 and I never rode less than 80psi, fwiw. I’m a lot lighter than you at 175-180lbs. Maybe focusing on fork sag is giving you a bad direction? It is hard to repeat accurately, imo. I never use fork sag but more look at how much fork travel you are using compared to the rear in order to get some balance.

Is she tucking in on you occasionally in rough corners? I’d be surprised if she’s pushing wide at those pressures. That’s another way to look at it.

Yes she felt like it wanted me to push over the front end almost like cornering in a g-out wheel twists and slows momentum fast. You get that abrupt over the bars feeling...

I'm around 18-20% sag 87psi 2 tokens and the slow speed kicks back so much more solid now...Craig told me he tunes for psi and not a generic tune for all psi on air set ups...so I think your right as far as I was tuning for sag and Craig tunes for psi I was fighting the confusion.. ...never had this issue before on any avy cart or fork but this was the last piece to the puzzle I needed to iron out on the 40....seems to be sorted...

I prefer to have some drop out so it tracks on small divits....but I have 1.6" in fork for drop out..

Feels better and alot faster response with the slow speed dialed open...so I'll need to add some slow speed to compensate...

I think we are on the right path...with home duties and fire department stuff coming up ,kids sports and trying to get dialed for fox open I'm limited on time to get to where I need to be for it...
So all the help from peeps on here is appreciated...

 

[bullcrew]

Yeah i

Slightly off topic, but here goes. I went to 165 cranks because of the mullet action. Today I did my first real climb, and I could feel the difference. It was kind of like losing one tooth off of the rear cog, IMO. However, the bike is a lot heavier now with dh casings, I was feeling that, too.
my best time on this climb is something like 24 minutes, tonight was 36. Yeesh. However, I did get a 16 fastest on a long trail I have only ridden once before, 8 years ago. So pointed down, it still shreds. There were sections going balls out in the 30/10, and the 165‘s showed their shortcomings in a feeling of ‘lack of leverage’...but I could have just been spent.
More testing and navel gazing is in order.

Yeah there will be a good difference in leverage...I have tried 165 and will stick with 170 or 175 from now on....just be cognitive of pedal placement...I pedal out too fast and my legs being long don't rotate as fast as a smaller individual .

 

[6thElement]

Slightly off topic, but here goes. I went to 165 cranks because of the mullet action. Today I did my first real climb, and I could feel the difference. It was kind of like losing one tooth off of the rear cog, IMO. However, the bike is a lot heavier now with dh casings, I was feeling that, too.
my best time on this climb is something like 24 minutes, tonight was 36. Yeesh. However, I did get a 16 fastest on a long trail I have only ridden once before, 8 years ago. So pointed down, it still shreds. There were sections going balls out in the 30/10, and the 165‘s showed their shortcomings in a feeling of ‘lack of leverage’...but I could have just been spent.
More testing and navel gazing is in order.

Seated, you should be able to put out more power with the shorter cranks.
Standing, the longer cranks allow you to put out more.

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

Just tracked down a gently used set of Shred Dogg chainstays for my current Trail Pistola. I've got wheels around to run a Shred Pistol now. Fork is at 140mm so expected geo will be a half degree steeper and a few mm lower than what is below. Both fine with me for general trail shredding and our jump trails. I'm excited to see how it handles compared to the full 29 set up... Pretty cool how easy it is to mess with the GG platform and do experiments like this without too much expense.

Guerrilla Gravity Shred Dogg 150/140 (with 150mm 29er fork, Gravity mode, 55mm stroke, short cup): 64.5 HTA, 76.9 STA, 346 BB height

Edit: props to @Andeh for compiling a useful database for us tinkerers!

 

[StiHacka]

Seated, you should be able to put out more power with the shorter cranks.
Standing, the longer cranks allow you to put out more.

Shorter cranks == less torque, just like a larger chainring or a smaller cassette cog, but they are easier to spin faster. I find adjustment to shorter cranks similar or easier than to an oval chainring. (that was a failed experiment for me)

Another benefit of shorter cranks is they allow for a longer dropper when the sizing is tight.

 

[slyfink]

Slightly off topic, but here goes. I went to 165 cranks because of the mullet action. Today I did my first real climb, and I could feel the difference. It was kind of like losing one tooth off of the rear cog, IMO. However, the bike is a lot heavier now with dh casings, I was feeling that, too.
my best time on this climb is something like 24 minutes, tonight was 36. Yeesh. However, I did get a 16 fastest on a long trail I have only ridden once before, 8 years ago. So pointed down, it still shreds. There were sections going balls out in the 30/10, and the 165‘s showed their shortcomings in a feeling of ‘lack of leverage’...but I could have just been spent.
More testing and navel gazing is in order.

Seated, you should be able to put out more power with the shorter cranks.
Standing, the longer cranks allow you to put out more.

Shorter cranks == less torque, just like a larger chainring or a smaller cassette cog, but they are easier to spin faster. I find adjustment to shorter cranks similar or easier than to an oval chainring. (that was a failed experiment for me)

Another benefit of shorter cranks is they allow for a longer dropper when the sizing is tight.

I'm about 5 rides in with 165mm cranks (down from 175mm). I didn't change anything to my cassette (9-42 XO 11speed).

I noticed a decrease in peak torque in steep, technical climbs. There was one rooty, rocky climb in particular that I can carry momentum into, then stall, then crank the fuck up the rest. I could make it on the 175, but with the 165 I couldn't get that torque down. But those scenarios are few and far between.

I've found I have to spin more when climbing, and that 42t cog isn't as easy as it used to be. I've always been more of a power climber, and less of a spinner. But I'm also beginning to find I can actually spin better with the shorter cranks, not just because the circle my feet have to move is smaller, but because the angle at my hips is more open. I have short legs (28" inseam), and I think the longer cranks were simply physiologically harder for me to spin.

I think I might look into switching that 42t cog to a 44t, but otherwise I'm really happy with the new setup. Not smashing my pedals, and being able to pedals through chunder and out of corners quicker is a real benefit. I also somehow find the bike more playful overall.

Last thing: from what I've read on various sites, the difference in ultimate power delivery between cranks as short as 155 and as long as 205 was something like 4%. So overall, not much difference.

 

[iRider]

Effects of Pedal Speed and Crank Length on Pedaling Mechanics during Submaximal Cycling

During submaximal cycling, the neuromuscular system has the freedom to select different intermuscular coordination strategies. From both a basic science and an applied perspective, it is important to understand how the central nervous system adjusts pedaling ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Determinants of maximal cycling power: crank length, pedaling rate and pedal speed - European Journal of Applied Physiology

The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of cycle crank length on maximum cycling power, optimal pedaling rate, and optimal pedal speed, and to determine the optimal crank length to leg length ratio for maximal power production. Trained cyclists (n=16) performed maximal...

link.springer.com

Effect of crank length on joint-specific power during maximal cycling - PubMed

These data demonstrate that crank length does not affect relative joint-specific power once the effects of pedaling rate and pedal speed are accounted for. Our results thereby substantiate previous findings that crank length per se is not an important determinant of maximum cycling power production.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Andeh]

Adding the Transition Spire. You know, in case you want a 170mm, 62 degree bike.

Edit: just out of curiosity, I checked what the new Patrol and Spire look like with + anglesets. Spire will get back to essentially stock geo with a +1.5 angleset and a mullet, but BB drops 11mm. Patrol with a +1.0 angleset goes to 64.2 HT, 78.5 ST, 342 BB. That one looks really good to me.

 

[englertracing]

Yeah I set it at 85psi 2 tokens and it ramps back alot faster on slow speed rebound...it's around 20%

Yes she felt like it wanted me to push over the front end almost like cornering in a g-out wheel twists and slows momentum fast. You get that abrupt over the bars feeling...

I'm around 18-20% sag 87psi 2 tokens and the slow speed kicks back so much more solid now...Craig told me he tunes for psi and not a generic tune for all psi on air set ups...so I think your right as far as I was tuning for sag and Craig tunes for psi I was fighting the confusion.. ...never had this issue before on any avy cart or fork but this was the last piece to the puzzle I needed to iron out on the 40....seems to be sorted...

I prefer to have some drop out so it tracks on small divits....but I have 1.6" in fork for drop out..

Feels better and alot faster response with the slow speed dialed open...so I'll need to add some slow speed to compensate...

I think we are on the right path...with home duties and fire department stuff coming up ,kids sports and trying to get dialed for fox open I'm limited on time to get to where I need to be for it...
So all the help from peeps on here is appreciated...

Have you measured your actual head angle?

 

[toodles]

Adding the Transition Spire. You know, in case you want a 170mm, 62 degree bike.

Edit: just out of curiosity, I checked what the new Patrol and Spire look like with + anglesets. Spire will get back to essentially stock geo with a +1.5 angleset and a mullet, but BB drops 11mm. Patrol with a +1.0 angleset goes to 64.2 HT, 78.5 ST, 342 BB. That one looks really good to me.

I'd be happy enough with the Patrol option in the high setting I think. It is probably too slack to be fair, but I found running the B1 air springs let me get away with the old Patrol (mine measured 63.0º, despite the geo chart). I'd love a B1 air spring or Luftkappe for the Zeb to be available, as the both tend to make the fork sit lower. My Mega is 64º and feels much less of a handful on flatter turns (longer CS than my Patrol as well).

 

[djjohnr]

I'd be happy enough with the Patrol option in the high setting I think. It is probably too slack to be fair, but I found running the B1 air springs let me get away with the old Patrol (mine measured 63.0º, despite the geo chart). I'd love a B1 air spring or Luftkappe for the Zeb to be available, as the both tend to make the fork sit lower. My Mega is 64º and feels much less of a handful on flatter turns (longer CS than my Patrol as well).

The Secus is Zeb compatible

 

[toodles]

The Secus is Zeb compatible

Yeah but the Secus doesn't cause the fork to "sit down" like the other air springs do.

 

[djjohnr]

Yeah but the Secus doesn't cause the fork to "sit down" like the other air springs do.

Yes it does, at least in your normal neutral measurement position. If you get over the fork it will sag less though due to the increased mid-stroke spring rate.

 

[bullcrew]

Have you measured your actual head angle?

It was 63* beforehand ..haven't measured it since swapping over I'll take the angle finder out and look later....

 

[englertracing]

It was 63* beforehand ..haven't measured it since swapping over I'll take the angle finder out and look later....

In my experience
Forks go from good at 64
To really shit at 62...
For all the reasons Aneh mentioned.

No amount of air or compression faffery ever gets them to feel as good.

 

[Rhubarb]

I'm on the fence for a new bike and would really like to try a mullet set up. I dig 27.5 but enjoyed some of the benefits felt with 29 (6 rides worth on a Ripmo AF). I do not want to try and get a 29er to work as a mullet and would rather hold out for a bike designed to go full 29 or mullet. Only looking for an alu frame so when the new Patrol showed up this week my interest was definitely piqued. But I would also look to run it in the high setting and even look to install a +1 angle set (1.5 headtube for the win). Chainstays are longer than my preference and the WB could also be a tad less. This is all down to the typical trails being less vertical and tight. Personally I would prefer 150mm of R travel, again thats all I need for the local trails. Would have liked to see the Reach at 485mm but since it sits at 480mm in the high setting I should still be able to run a 40mm stem. I think we will see more mullet capable bikes for 2022. Would love to see a mullet Rune.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

@Rhubarb
Have you considered a scott genius without twinlock?

 

[djjohnr]

Bronson V4 mullet supposedly should be released next week. I loved how the V3 rode, just wanted more reach. 29 up front would be a bonus; even better if it can run a rear coil. If they keep the relatively conservative head angle and short stays to keep the wheelbase in check I'll be sorely tempted.

 

[djjohnr]

Bronson V4 mullet supposedly should be released next week. I loved how the V3 rode, just wanted more reach. 29 up front would be a bonus; even better if it can run a rear coil. If they keep the relatively conservative head angle and short stays to keep the wheelbase in check I'll be sorely tempted.

Supposed geometry. Less excited by the cs/wb.

Size L (Low / High)
Reach = 472 / 475mm
Stack = 637 / 635mm
HTA = 64.5 / 64.7
ST Length = 430mm
Front Center = 810 / 811mm
BB Height = 341 / 344mm
Wheel Base = 1249mm
CStay Length = 439 / 438mm
HT Length = 120mm
Top Tube Length = 627 / 623mm
STA = 76.5 / 76.9
Standover = 726 / 729mm

 

[Andeh]

I'm willing to be that SC being SC will make it both not fit coil and have low progressivity.

 

[slimshady]

I'm willing to be that SC being SC will make it both not fit coil and have low progressivity.

Don't forget the comparatively slack STA.

 

[toodles]

Don't forget the comparatively slack STA.

The new Bullit (also mullet) isn't bad. If they made one without the motor it could be a rad mullet

 

[Rhubarb]

I had a V3 Bronson I picked up 2nd hand. Original owner had it for a few months before I bought it. After riding it for a few months myself during lockdown last year I found a long crack around one of the chainstay welds. Loved how the bike rides (after getting the stupid rebound tuned on the stock Super Deluxe) but it left a bitter taste since I never even rode it in the mountains or at a bike park (lockdown). This was made worse by SC not having alu chainstays and alu frames being discontinued didnt help. Not having replacemetns parts within a couple of years of launching the bike sucks balls. As I picked it up 2nd hand I had no warranty. If SC are only going to offer crabon I am out.

Currently riding a Nukeproof Reactor which is one of the best bikes I have ridden (at least in the shorter travel category). Picked it 2nd hand in like new condish and at a killer price, but my next frame will be new so I have the warranty. I have cracked 4 frames in 3 years, so buying new makes sense at this point

Called one of the UK Transition stockists and they have 4 large raw Patrols coming in. Didnt get to call back yesterday arvo for an ETA. Will call Monday.

I have been eyeballing the new Rune for a long time. If it had a longer Reach I would probably already have one. But after riding a 29er I can see the benefits. Granted I specifically chose to test out an Ibis Ripmo AF because it is compact (the geo is close to my Reactor). Company wants me to move up to Scotland and I feel a 29er might be ideal but after jumping back onto the 27.5 wheels I think Mullet could be the best of both worlds.

Also I am not sure I am all over DW suspension platforms. The Ibis was the 3rd bike I have ridden, having owned 2 DW bikes before. SCs new VPP platform felt good (super supple off the top), but again after going from a VPP to Horst, then testing the Ibis (DW) and back to Horst, I really do like a well exececuted Horst link bike.

 

[rideit]

Rode the Altitude on mellow trails with the 29-er wheel, definitely worked way better for that.
Still analyzing...I think it’s one of those things that you could convince yourself of whatever outcome you are looking for.
except for the ass-buzz, that shit is real on teh gnurr.

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

Cut a fresh 67.5er mullet today.
Need to bleed the brakes and track down a seat/pedals and she's ready to rip!

 

[StiHacka]

Evil Insurgent v2 X01 - www.summitbicycles.com

 

[Bikael Molton]

I hear there's another mullet SC on the way.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

My recent mullet build, maybe not quite the mullet this thread is about but it's fun as hell.

 

[Andeh]

Evil Insurgent v2 X01 - www.summitbicycles.com

The geo chart and the parts list (includes 1degree Works angleset) tell me that this thing was kinda slapped together. It also says 180 fork for MX, 170 for 27.5, but I'm guessing that what it actually is is 180 for 27.5 with angleset, and 170 for MX. The BB heights for MX are stupid high... 358 in "low".

 

[bullcrew]

So is mullet lingo now...
276 (27.5 f 26 r)
297 (29 f 27.5 r)
Joe Dirt (26 r 29 f)

Would make it easier.

I'm good with it...now abbreviated I know if someone's old school mullet or new school mullet..

 

[djjohnr]

So is mullet lingo now...
276 (27.5 f 26 r)
297 (29 f 27.5 r)
Joe Dirt (26 r 29 f)

Would make it easier.

I'm good with it...now abbreviated I know if someone's old school mullet or new school mullet..

You forgot the OG 26/24 Flat Hucker mullet

 

[6thElement]

Evil Insurgent v2 X01 - www.summitbicycles.com

Just thirteen concurrent two weeks until they have stock!