Way to go !
MX suspension
- Thread starter HTFR
- Start date
nickaziz said:
wonder if you see the irony in that....
as an owner of almost all shocks in my time, (so thats, cheepo dnm, cheepo unbranded, fox vanillar r, then 2 rc's, a fustfull of romics and swinger 6 way and an avy) ive gotta say there is no comparision to an avalanche, ok i KNOW ime biased, my avy has not been PERFECT, i still find little niggles
the fox and the romics were the only shocks where i really noticed any difference when i turned the knobs, the swinger just felt poo ALL the time, no exceptions.... but yesterday i was out riding and loathing my 05 dorados, its that kinda feel i just dont like!
the avalanche, BRILLIANT shock, in my oppinion its unrivalled, i would like to point out that along with 99% of the riding community have never even seen a PUSH sticker, nevermind a shock. fair enough the adjustability is mostly internal, hell the adjustments make no noticable feel to me! atall.......not a sausage! but then again, who gives a toss. i know i, along with fellow avalanche owners, 5th owners, and god knows what else owners, just leave them in a place they like. and dont bother fiddling with them all the goddam time. this is, in my hunble oppinion how everything should be, but this is only my oppinion, if you want to be sad and have arguments over adjustments and feel, again in my oppinion, you are missing the whoile point of this goddam sport, to have fun.
please enough bickering, its a shock, a part of your bike, arguments arent needed......its just silly!
thankyou for listening to my rant, i feel like an old man!
edd
the fox and the romics were the only shocks where i really noticed any difference when i turned the knobs, the swinger just felt poo ALL the time, no exceptions.... but yesterday i was out riding and loathing my 05 dorados, its that kinda feel i just dont like!
the avalanche, BRILLIANT shock, in my oppinion its unrivalled, i would like to point out that along with 99% of the riding community have never even seen a PUSH sticker, nevermind a shock. fair enough the adjustability is mostly internal, hell the adjustments make no noticable feel to me! atall.......not a sausage! but then again, who gives a toss. i know i, along with fellow avalanche owners, 5th owners, and god knows what else owners, just leave them in a place they like. and dont bother fiddling with them all the goddam time. this is, in my hunble oppinion how everything should be, but this is only my oppinion, if you want to be sad and have arguments over adjustments and feel, again in my oppinion, you are missing the whoile point of this goddam sport, to have fun.
please enough bickering, its a shock, a part of your bike, arguments arent needed......its just silly!
thankyou for listening to my rant, i feel like an old man!
edd
compared to what? everything in the known universe? so far i can claim the same...nickaziz said:
zedro mate, i also see the irony, but why in gods name post that? to make the guy feel somehow worse about it, or you better about the whole argument?zedro said:
Whow!
I'll give some examples. Fox RC on a Scream felt like crap.... Avalanche on Scream felt way better and WORKED way better. Same goes for Swinger on BigHit DH vs. Avy on BigHit. The only other shock I've felt that feels remotely well is a 5th on a V10, but I have little real riding on it.zedro said:
The avy on my brooklyn is flawless.
I see both sides of this.
I've ridden an Avy on an Azonic Recoil (M1 copy) and I LOVED it even though it was setup for Kyle who weighed 15-20lbs lighter. (it was a bit too soft!!) Tracked awesome and felt really solid.
Then I tried to get my Gemini DH setup similar. This is where I get confused. Not trying to take anything away from Craig but I would think he would be more attune to leverage ratios/falling rate vs rising rate etc on a level much higher than myself being he is a shock TUNER. I had some serious red flags when he told me that I should be fine running a 450 spring my Gemini DH as this isn't even close to right.
It made me wonder if he even took out a calculator and figured out the leverage ratio/applied it. We never did get it setup properly which does make me wonder how sophisticated his stuff is.
Quality, Yes, it was great.
Worked great for me once and horrible for me another time, enough so I question his competence in the realm of tuning.
I've ridden an Avy on an Azonic Recoil (M1 copy) and I LOVED it even though it was setup for Kyle who weighed 15-20lbs lighter. (it was a bit too soft!!) Tracked awesome and felt really solid.
Then I tried to get my Gemini DH setup similar. This is where I get confused. Not trying to take anything away from Craig but I would think he would be more attune to leverage ratios/falling rate vs rising rate etc on a level much higher than myself being he is a shock TUNER. I had some serious red flags when he told me that I should be fine running a 450 spring my Gemini DH as this isn't even close to right.
It made me wonder if he even took out a calculator and figured out the leverage ratio/applied it. We never did get it setup properly which does make me wonder how sophisticated his stuff is.
Quality, Yes, it was great.
Worked great for me once and horrible for me another time, enough so I question his competence in the realm of tuning.
Is it something like the Gemini has a very low lever ratio making the 450 spring way to hard for your weight ?
surely the linkage will make such a huge influence on the shock chosen, as demonstrated by v10's and 5ths and your gemini. i remember reading somewhere that craig doesnt reccomend his shocks for cetain frames, correct me if ime wrong but that was falling and rising rate frames (please do correct me, as this is from my terrible alcohol damaged brain)
i think this argument is more personal than i assumed, more of a "its not good for MY frame/preference...etc"
and on the origional point, i just want a mx bike, the idea of solid components and suspension, and everyone having pretty much the same bike is appealing (theres only 3 or 4 big manufacturers right?)
i think this argument is more personal than i assumed, more of a "its not good for MY frame/preference...etc"
and on the origional point, i just want a mx bike, the idea of solid components and suspension, and everyone having pretty much the same bike is appealing (theres only 3 or 4 big manufacturers right?)
stock spring on it is 250lbs, that sort of says it all.seismic said:
It does indeed !
this is the situation i had had when a customer bought my 2001 Stinky travel upgrade plates and bought an Avy exactly for the application. Since there wasent a application already made for the setup, Craig decided that for some mysterious reason the closest setup would be the Stab Primo. Well, not only is the leverage ratio completly off between the two, but so is the suspension rate. I made the customer aware of this but of course Craig knew best and veto'ed the suggestion i guess. The result: since the Stab has a higher ratio and more linear rate, the shock came way overdamped, just as i had warned. Not to mention the proper spring rates arent offered.neversummersnow said:
dont get me wrong, i'm just playing devils advocate here (you know, quasi-trolling Avy flag wavers :devil: ), never said Avy's werent good. Hey, the ElHefe is probably a great shock, but i dont want to deal with that company, nor with the user-tunability limitations. Both products are the same to me, as well as the companies behind them.
And geez, its just bike parts, no need to fall in love...
zedro said:
Sounds like a problem
I see your point !! Of course there can be ups and downs and there might be many different interpretations of the company. I have only had good experiences when it comes to the products, the service and the setup so I admit that I am biased and I admit that I am a extreme fan of Avalanche 
:devil: Though...I see your point
By the way...If you want people who are really in deep love with bike parts...the BMW
thread is the way to go !
thread is the way to go !
theres i reason i never even opened itseismic said:
damn cults...
like i said folks, when they work they work great, the technology is unquestionable. I just wonder if its more of a guessing game than it should be for the tuning side of things...its not rocket science, most of the time high school level math will suffice!
I find this ironic, coming from someone who HAD to have been sitting at a computer, writing a post on a bicycle forum. Ha!nickaziz said:
feels proud and embarrased at the same time!seismic said:
were not that bad, we may love them, doesnt mean were arses about them tho!
edd
what i find kinda funny is the touted "custom tuned" song i keep hearing. Well, my DHX is custom tuned for myself, i have my own spring, pressure and volume settings. Two Avy customers with the same bike, weight bracket (however wide that is) and ride catagory will have the exact the setup...how is that custom? I think some on-site race-tech guys might object to the terminology, anything on a application list would surely be generic.neversummersnow said:
Plus, i have a feeling an over-damped shim stack setup will 'feel' great regardless if its the best setup.
PS...remember, this is just a discussion
Am I the only person who doesn't want fcukloads of compression damping? For example, Boxxer Races don't bother me...
I run my rear shock with the absolute minimum of compression damping as well. Custom tuned this, custom tuned that, I haven't ridden anything that makes me go "wow i really want 4 compression dampers in my fork and seventeen in my shock"... so I kinda fail to see the big deal about Avalanches (unless of course, you like falling off stuff, aka freeriding
).
*steps back from tinderbox*
I run my rear shock with the absolute minimum of compression damping as well. Custom tuned this, custom tuned that, I haven't ridden anything that makes me go "wow i really want 4 compression dampers in my fork and seventeen in my shock"... so I kinda fail to see the big deal about Avalanches (unless of course, you like falling off stuff, aka freeriding
). *steps back from tinderbox*
There's a difference between having compression damping and a compression damper, having compression adjustments, and having a boxxer race.thaflyinfatman said:
The compression damper is the shimmed affair that allows bigger hits to blow off a valve, allowing the damper to move into it's travel, the force of the oil trying to displace this valve slows down the fork. The boxxer race on the other hand relys almost entirely on spring force (and probably on some internal air-spring caused by decreasing volume). A fox vanilla non-adjustable (so not even an R) rear shock has this compression damper, as does any fox fork, any high end marzocchi, and the TPC+ manitous. There is usually a low-speed bleed to allow the fork to move under lesser impacts. The fixed-port dampers (SSV, boxxers, fluid flow, and others) usually feel much harsher on impacts because they don't have a good mechanism to increase the flow when the pressure of the oil increases. With no compression damper, you need a much higher spring rate, the fork will feel like a$$ (just like my boxxer race did) and it will especially feel bad at high speed. At slow speed, it will act ok, because at slow speed you need almost no damping, damping is provided by friction at low speed, this is why the shimmed cartridge has a "bleed" usually for low speed impacts, so it can essentially move "freely" under them.
Having a compression adjustment can be useless sometimes. Take the old fox vanilla RC. The compression adjustment basically allowed you to "close down" the passage way between the resevior and shock. This "adjustment" affects the entire range of the shock, so it only makes the thing "harsher", it's not a usefull adjustment. The usefull compression adjustments are low speed (with a blowoff) that allows you to get a little bit better pedaling, but you will sacrifice some low speed compliance, and high speed, but the tuning range of high speed compression damping is very small, it's not something where you go making huge changes. The reason that the compression adjustments on a Romic work, and the SPV air-pressure on a SPV shock works, is that it doesn't affect the entire range of movement and forces, so these "compression" adjustments can be very usefull. An "overall" compression adjustment on the other hand like the 2000 Marzocchis and old Vanilla RCs is simply useless and increasing it only makes your bike ride like crap.
The boxxer race on the other hand relys almost entirely on spring force to keep from bottoming. This is why they ride higher and harsher than other forks, because there is no real "progressiveness" or compression damping to slow it down.
I know what compression damping does and how it works, I simply question the need for it.
As for Boxxer Races riding "harsher" than other forks... my experience says otherwise.
Edit: I should specify that I only ride race-ish kinda stuff (where bottoming isn't much of a concern), and I CAN see the huge value of compression damping for drops and whatnot.
As for Boxxer Races riding "harsher" than other forks... my experience says otherwise.
Edit: I should specify that I only ride race-ish kinda stuff (where bottoming isn't much of a concern), and I CAN see the huge value of compression damping for drops and whatnot.
of course you need it....when only two under-sprung springs are offered for your shock :evil:thaflyinfatman said:
thats Avy's philosophy tho.
zedro said:
hahaha fair enough. I can understand it being totally necessary on any big-hit kinda bike, but on a race bike it doesn't make a *lot* of difference IMO. Yeah I run a bit on my forks, but I could live without it. I'd prefer the traction to the extra bottoming resistance (altho if Avys are as good as some people claim, maybe they'd give that as well - I have yet to even see one in the flesh though).
Well see, this is the difference in philosophy when talking about companies like RS vs companies that use motocross type technology. With motorcycles, you sag a considerable amount, allowing a relatively low spring weight, damping keeps the thing from bottoming out off of every impact, and controlls it. This gives you better performance overall, on all sorts of impacts.thaflyinfatman said:
With RS, they want you to have an over-sprung fork that doesn't bottom because it's over sprung, run it through a rock garden at high speed and it might not bottom, but it makes your hands feel like someone is hitting them repeateldy with a mallet.
actually i noticed quite a difference in the DHX compression (pressure) settings to how much terrain the suspension would gobble up in a normal grounded riding situation. I could get the bike to float over stuff, eat it up (my fav), or overshoot and make the bike lunge a bit (bad). Although my particular suspension design might be exagerating these effects, which blew me away when i first started tinkering with the DHX.thaflyinfatman said:
I had an Avalanche and it was just okay I guess. It was harsh at lower speeds. It took big hits really well but if I wasn't going full DH speed, it was not that plush feeling. I put a 5th on my bike and it felt better at lower speeds, pedaled just as well, was lighter and took big hits fine when set up right. At one point, I had an Avy, 5th and RC and just kept the 5th on because I liked it more than the Avy. This was for general riding and for DH racing. Now, I have a different bike and have a Fox RC. It feels good, pedals fine and hasn't failed me yet.seismic said:
Every time I've tried that rock garden test on my Boxxers I've had no issues (including a 4 minute long rock garden, aka "mt buller"). Don't take this as (another) attack on you personally, but it would appear that either your Boxxers were horribly set up, or you're some sort of gun with every other fork, and make the Boxxer seem terrible in comparison (or maybe a bit of both). I've also owned an 02 Shiver and an 02 Super T, both of those were extremely under-compression-damped (as well as being softer for any given "proper" setup compared to a Boxxer). I preferred the Boxxer's less-plush/more stiffly sprung setup simply because it has a far better cornering and braking attitude, and doesn't dive on hard hits, it just uses most (or all) of its travel then gets back to where it should be. The Shivers and the Supers both dived, a LOT (I ran em with 10wt oil btw, and never bothered to try anything higher), and this caused the front end to feel a bit more vague than with the Boxxers.Jm_ said:
I understand the sag thing on motos, but I prefer to run my forks with relatively little sag (to keep a lot of positive travel underneath me and to keep the bars up a bit), and the weight of the bike doesn't affect the sag itself by much. Moto forks also have to absorb a lot more impact than MTB forks; for example you can't do much to lift the front end of a moto off the ground simply by tugging on the bars. Horses for courses I think.
thaflyinfatman said:
When speaking relatively between the two, I don't agree. Relatively a DH mtb fork has to absorb a lot of impact. You fly through the air, go off drops, nasty rock gardens, etc...
This also gets into rate, because with the boxxer only being slowed down by it's springs, it is going to ride higher like you say, but never use much of it's travel except on large impacts. With a fork that has a compression damper, it can use more of it's travel, and still not bottom on the large impact. In the end, you end up with better suspension, because the suspension is doing what it is supposed to, suspend.
I dunno, you asked if you were the only person that doesn't see the need for compression damping. This may be true, but I can't think that all of the companies that use compression dampers; fox, RS, marzocchi, manitou, WB, avalanche, etc, are just putting them in there because they like to make extra parts and make their products heavier...?
guess its simply a preference thing. The odd time i actually watched people race, i noticed two types of setups; one where bikes would just float and stay level, others where the damn thing would chatter and pitch like crazy. However both were being ridden stupid fast.Jm_ said:
I know which setup i'd prefer tho.
Wow you're sure a clever one. ha-huck, ha-huck. Mr. zedro has 30 times the number of posts as me, and that was what we were discussing. He used the number of posts on this forum as a measure of credibility when it comes to giving an opinion on bike parts.Full Trucker said:I find this ironic, coming from someone who HAD to have been sitting at a computer, writing a post on a bicycle forum. Ha!
i was also joking around. Had you had more experience via a higher post count, you would of caught on to thatnickaziz said:
neaky: (note the use of smilies is very important in comminicating context. That'll become more apparent around the 200 post count.)
Haha, smilies are ridemonkeys tone of voice... i often forget to use them, it can get you into allot of trouble...zedro said:i was also joking around. Had you had more experience via a higher post count, you would of caught on to that
(note the use of smilies is very important in comminicating context. That'll become more apparent around the 200 post count.)
PS: Zedro knows his stuff N00bs .
dont shake that finger at me young man! :angry:mack said:Haha, smilies are ridemonkeys tone of voice... i often forget to use them, it can get you into allot of trouble...
Could you elaborate more on the Romic's desing in Compression. Are you saying that a romic's compression valve adjustment is mostly a low speed? Because i have a romic and i find the compresssion to feel through out mostly? And the what range is the rebound on the Romic, i find that to be through out as well.
Whats ur guys opinion on the 5th element type shocks. Is it true that a 5th element relies mostly on compression from the shock unit for support and not the spring? And isnt it the opposite with fox?
Whats ur guys opinion on the 5th element type shocks. Is it true that a 5th element relies mostly on compression from the shock unit for support and not the spring? And isnt it the opposite with fox?