[ChrisKring]

Whats ur guys opinion on the 5th element type shocks. Is it true that a 5th element relies mostly on compression from the shock unit for support and not the spring? And isnt it the opposite with fox?

The 5th uses a lower spring rate coil spring due to the air pressure in the resivour acts as a spring too. But your right with respect that position sentive damping also plays a role since the compression damping ramps up at the end of stroke to prevent bottoming.

Is that clear? Otherwise, I can elaborate more.

 

[nickaziz]

i was also joking around. Had you had more experience via a higher post count, you would of caught on to that neaky:

(note the use of smilies is very important in comminicating context. That'll become more apparent around the 200 post count.)

I've read this forum for a over a year at least. And I've worked for sites with much greater memberships than this, so I think I know a thing or two about Internet communication.

Anyway, I'm sure you agree there's no need to argue about this anymore. What we must keep arguing about is rear shocks.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

I love my Avalanche.......Is that so wrong?

 

[zedro]

I love my Avalanche.......Is that so wrong?

depens....does the wife know?

 

[Brian HCM#1]

depens....does the wife know?

Nope. I have to hide that from her neaky: Well at least the invoice

 

[zedro]

Nope. I have to hide that from her neaky: Well at least the invoice

sounds like you've been seeing another bank account too!

 

[Brian HCM#1]

sounds like you've been seeing another bank account too!

Its funny, we've been married almost 6 years and still have seporate bank accounts, she's on my checking, home savings accounts as I'm on her's, but we have different personal savings accounts for us to do what we want with our $. She works as hard as I do to earn it, she should have some spending $ to do what she wants to do with it.

 

[zedro]

wow, thats more leanient than some of my buddies GFs lol

 

[Jm_]

Are you saying that a romic's compression valve adjustment is mostly a low speed?

Yes, it is a low speed adjustment. More low speed compression will affect the overal stroke, because it's going to have to blow off every time the shock cycles, so enough low speed compression will affect the high speed function of the shock, it wont be high speed damping, it will simply be "too much" low speed damping.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

wow, thats more leanient than some of my buddies GFs lol

I gotta have my toys

 

[ChrisRobin]

Ok, here's my take on this after reading all the posts...Gotta make it quick cuz I have to go to my crappy job.

Alright, yeah I'm jealous of MX tech because they have pretty much unlimited adjustments. Although, I think almost everyone here is like me...lazy. So we're not going to be tampering with all these adjustments all the time. I'm a 'adjust-once' type a guy.
-I had a 5E very briefly and I liked it. It was on a BB7. I found Balfa's recommendations to be off when it came to shock settings but I found it was smoothe at fast speeds. I heard of people saying newer Intense M1s and Orange 222 and 223s don't work well with Avy shocks because the settings weren't accurate
-I had a Romic at the beginning of last season and I loved it. Incredibly smoothe, accurate at low and high speeds. Then it started leaking....
-I put a Fox RC on in the meantime and like the Romic, was incredibly smoothe on small hits and at low speeds but at high speeds it sucked. Felt like it was getting hung up on everything. Pushed RC would be just amazing. I'm still considering it because it would be lighter (with a Ti spring), smaller and would work at hight speeds.
-Then I got an El Jefe just because it's like an Avy shock (a little wider so fitting into certain frames might not work): MX-type tech, internal adjustments, solid and parts are easy to come by. I found at slow speeds it was a little harsher than the Romic but when you got going it just felt like it opened up and took everything and tracked well. The reason why I went for this shock? I could open it up myself in case I didn't like something as opposed to sending it away and waiting...plus Stratos has always been helpful with my stuff.

This is more like a shock review but in the end, I find your frame makes a huge difference. In my case, my Nucleon made almost everything feel really good. I don't have any allegiances with anyone.

 

[seismic]

Seems that the only conclusion left is that we all love our toys, - different toys maybe, but still used for the same purpose !! That is really nice !

 

[binary visions]

Hehehehe... I get a kick out of the fact that in the middle of a discussion that started off as MX suspension and turned into a rear shock discussion/argument, Jm STILL managed to throw in a couple Boxxer-bashing posts in response to a completely surface level comment about a Boxxer.

His custom title should be, "Love me, love my Boxxer".

 

[seismic]

Hehehehe... I get a kick out of the fact that in the middle of a discussion that started off as MX suspension and turned into a rear shock discussion/argument, Jm STILL managed to throw in a couple Boxxer-bashing posts in response to a completely surface level comment about a Boxxer.

His custom title should be, "Love me, love my Boxxer".

Yeah...the discussion took quite a turn...

 

[mack]

i think that what makes the boxxer a good fork is weight. There is one main difference in MX technology and mnt bike technology, and that is that mnt bikes need to be concerned about weight, and cost as most of us make around middle class and have commitments.

You cannot just purely pure mx technology to mnt bikes, it has to be bread, but same concepts. Rock Shox does need to get a clue however, and smell the coffee. While the main strenghts of the boxxer are its cheap and its light, i think that the world cup should deffinetly have some better performance and still keep its 6 lb badge.

 

[zedro]

Yeah...the discussion took quite a turn...

hehe, blame it on whoever brought up the tired MX/Avy connection.

 

[seismic]

Guess it is a frequent one...

 

[Lexx D]

hehe, blame it on whoever brought up the tired MX/Avy connection.

Or blame it on the people who decided to comment on the connection.

 

[ohio]

because you get to "adjust" it the way you want, not the way some snotty dude tells you how he wants to tune it.

Being a canadian with a bike not on the fit list, i wouldn't be surprised if he wouldn't even want to sell me one (and there is some precedence here as well).

Zedro,
If you wanted an avy-style shock that you can tune yourself, you could pick up an el jefe. It includes instructions on how to fack with the shim stack at your local MX shop, and home maintenance won't void your warranty.

Craig is obsessive about the performance of his shock. That's part of the game. Take it or leave it. If he doesn't think he can make the shock perform perfectly for your bicycle, and there's not a lot of those bikes to amortize the commitment, it's not worth his time to figure it out. That's smart business.

 

[seismic]

Or blame it on the people who decided to comment on the connection.

Nope !!! Absolutely no reason what so ever to blame them :mumble: :mumble:

 

[leprechaun]

Ok first let me say i have only 100 something posts
Really though,I've ridden motos for 25 years(papy had me on one at 4)
People think that motos work so much better but it is not completely the case! Yes they are awesome and nearly perfect,but only in certain situations.

We are trying to (on a race course) get mountain bike suspension to be super supple,while also taking huge hits,drops massive holes etc.That is so difficult!

Motos come set up for Motocross,or Enduro.And they are valved that way.It all comes down to tuning.A Yamaha WR and YZ have nearly identical suspension components,but feel totally different.A WR can gobble big sharp rocks while seated.They also bottom off of 4' ledges.YZ's can take a 100' double and come up short,and can handle a single jump and overshoot to flat just fine.But they ride super rough offroad,kicking and bouncing all over the place on rocky trails.

I ride a 03KX 125 which has motocross valving.Since it is a 125 it comes sprung on the soft side.For motocross tracks i run the stock settings,works great.For a supercross track i run the clickers in on compressoin to take hard landings,works fine.For offroad(desert) i run the comp.clickers all the way out and it is barely soft enough,but really doesn't compare to true Enduro suspension.

Oddly enough my 888 seems enduro plush AND takes big hits soooo well!
The feel of my El Cuervo with a tuned,Push and an 888 feels as good or better than any one moto setup i've ridden!I feel it is due to the lighter weight on the bicycle(and a good rising rate frame coupled with good valving)

I Guess my point is,Serious moto guys all have their stuff valved for them to ride how they like.Mointainbike frames are all over the board in terms of suspension design,this makes it very hard for tuners.

Conclusion:If we all had similar frames we might be able to ride AVYs and get a good feel.
But since that will never happen we will need more tuneable shocks to cope.There are just too many frames and types of riders to get our suspension components streamlined like motos.
Maybe that's not such a bad thing.

 

[seismic]

That was a nice post !!!

 

[leprechaun]

thanks,man i type slow.
Maybe the moderator can bump up my post number for that!

 

[seismic]

Well, - yes, I actually think you nailed the problem because the discussion often ends up with "what is best" and not "what is best for which bike in a certain condition". ALso, - as you said....MX suspension does not equal supreme, un-conditional good suspension. (Well, - my words, but that was what I think I could read in your post).

 

[leprechaun]

True true.
I too owned an avy and for me it sucked! But i'm not going to just go and post that lame one line.
It was on an Army with stupid high leverage and Graig had it apart 10 times til he finaly said 'dude it aint gonna happen'.He was begging me to put the bike in short travel but the only spring he had was the 450.I need a 350 for the 9" short travel setting.So i never had a good experience with his shock.Is that his fault? Hell no!
I've since had a variety of shocks,but not another avy on the right bike,set up right.
I think my Push really is noty far off from what's inside the Avy.I do however get along with Darren and we share similar views on susp.setup. Probably why i am very happy with my current setup on the DH bike.
However on my ASX i have a DHX,and a Push. Since the suspension rate is different then on my Cuervo( i like the smooth gradual curve on the Cuervo)The Push feels pretty good but bottoms too harshly.The DHX has better bottoming control but not as plush.Just a diffferent susp.rate,which makes it pedal better,which is probablyfor the better for a FR bike.This is just why many peeps can't get the ride they want.

 

[seismic]

True true.
I too owned an avy and for me it sucked! But i'm not going to just go and post that lame one line.
It was on an Army with stupid high leverage and Graig had it apart 10 times til he finaly said 'dude it aint gonna happen'.He was begging me to put the bike in short travel but the only spring he had was the 450.I need a 350 for the 9" short travel setting.So i never had a good experience with his shock.Is that his fault? Hell no!
I've since had a variety of shocks,but not another avy on the right bike,set up right.
I think my Push really is noty far off from what's inside the Avy.I do however get along with Darren and we share similar views on susp.setup. Probably why i am very happy with my current setup on the DH bike.
However on my ASX i have a DHX,and a Push. Since the suspension rate is different then on my Cuervo( i like the smooth gradual curve on the Cuervo)The Push feels pretty good but bottoms too harshly.The DHX has better bottoming control but not as plush.Just a diffferent susp.rate,which makes it pedal better,which is probablyfor the better for a FR bike.This is just why many peeps can't get the ride they want.

Well, - I am riding an Army too. Just really curious...what happend when setting the shock in the 11" mode ?? The shock could not take it or what ?? Thought about trying myself. For the moment I keep it in 9" mode and I think it works fine for me (180lbs).
I have to admit that I actually thought the shock would be able to handle the 11" mode too, but if you have a different experience I am all ears

 

[Brian HCM#1]

True true.
I too owned an avy and for me it sucked! But i'm not going to just go and post that lame one line.
It was on an Army with stupid high leverage and Graig had it apart 10 times til he finaly said 'dude it aint gonna happen'.He was begging me to put the bike in short travel but the only spring he had was the 450.I need a 350 for the 9" short travel setting.So i never had a good experience with his shock.Is that his fault? Hell no!
I've since had a variety of shocks,but not another avy on the right bike,set up right.
I think my Push really is noty far off from what's inside the Avy.I do however get along with Darren and we share similar views on susp.setup. Probably why i am very happy with my current setup on the DH bike.
However on my ASX i have a DHX,and a Push. Since the suspension rate is different then on my Cuervo( i like the smooth gradual curve on the Cuervo)The Push feels pretty good but bottoms too harshly.The DHX has better bottoming control but not as plush.Just a diffferent susp.rate,which makes it pedal better,which is probablyfor the better for a FR bike.This is just why many peeps can't get the ride they want.

Now when you had your Army, if you would have gone with a Romic spring would that have worked for you? I love the Avy on my Army, but then again I probably weigh more than you do.

 

[kidwoo]

Now when you had your Army, if you would have gone with a Romic spring would that have worked for you? I love the Avy on my Army, but then again I probably weigh more than you do.

There was no "romic" when he was on that setup.

 

[leprechaun]

I could have used a Romic spring,but this was 2000,Romic was kinda not all that known then,and i got my Foes deal shortly thereafter and i gave my Avy stuff back.
In the 11" mode the bike would blow deep in the travel and would rebound really fast,giving my a serious bucking,bouncing action.A little scary.I bounced over the bars at the Rampage off a drop.
He said that if he put any more rebound damping on the shims that it would get a 'Fox' feel (rebounding visually slow when you push on the seat in the parking lot) He wouldn't set it up that way.He wants it to rebound quickly in the lot and rebound slowly when you hit something hard, going deeper into the travel.Due to the high leverage ratio he just can't set it up that way.

 

[seismic]

OK, - I see the problem ! Not the right shock for the 11" setup !

 

[Lexx D]

OK, - I see the problem ! Not the right shock for the 11" setup !

From what I've read no shock was good for the 11" setup.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

There was no "romic" when he was on that setup.

Thats right, they really didn't come around till late 2001.

 

[seismic]

From what I've read no shock was good for the 11" setup.

second that

 

[HTFR]

guess its simply a preference thing. The odd time i actually watched people race, i noticed two types of setups; one where bikes would just float and stay level, others where the damn thing would chatter and pitch like crazy. However both were being ridden stupid fast.

I know which setup i'd prefer tho.

thats the best thing ive heard all night.

 

[tmx]

Fascinating to me that these quote come from the same individual. "If we all had similar frames we might be able to ride AVYs and get a good feel." "I too owned an avy and for me it sucked!"

Hey Krispy, can you explain what it was about the Av that made you feel the componant was a valuable asset even though it wasn't serving you properly with the frame you were running at the time?

Thanks,
Terry (You did give my regards to Mrs. B, right?!!!)

 

[zedro]

Fascinating to me that these quote come from the same individual. "If we all had similar frames we might be able to ride AVYs and get a good feel." "I too owned an avy and for me it sucked!"

not so fascinating if you understood his point, the context given in the body of the post. He was commenting on suspension design vs. shock design, and how the two may not be in sync or appropriate for one another given the use. He musta felt this was the case for himself.

 

[mack]

just while were on this situation, what the ideal shock for a giant DH? I am running a romic and it feels very nice, maybe the progression gets a little too steep to early but i was just curiose as to what type of leverage that frame is? i would guess high?

 

[tmx]

not so fascinating if you understood his point, the context given in the body of the post. He was commenting on suspension design vs. shock design, and how the two may not be in sync or appropriate for one another given the use. He musta felt this was the case for himself.

Thanks Zedro. I did understand his point and was looking for specific detail from Kris and his specific experience.

It is still fascinating to me that someone can conclude a shock to be as substantial as Kris had indicated by his first quote given his experience from the second quote. Though, since you've chosen to respond to my inquiry, and given the extensive knowlege you exude on RM, it seems even more-so fascinating that you lean towards negating the Avalanche worthiness based on Craig's unwilliness to work with yours/new/unfamiliar designs. I understand you have not indicated Avalanche as a bad shock, but I have taken much of what you've indicated here as a downplay of it's worthiness.

 

[OGRipper]

It is fascinating to me that you took so long and still came up short of simply saying "I disagree with you Zedro, but don't hate me."

 

[tmx]

It is fascinating to me that you took so long and still came up short of simply saying "I disagree with you Zedro, but don't hate me."

You aren't directing that at me, are you? If you actually are....I don't mind if Zedro "hates" me or my choice of rear suspension. Zed indicated himself that it's just a component, we don't have to "fall in love" with it. Good grief, I hope you aren't referring to my post. I have admired Zed's posts for a long time and found this response rather curious, that's all. I'm writing while working...overtime...and didn't realize there was a time-frame, in addition to post counts, on what makes a worthy response in a technical thread.

edit: I've waited over three-minutes for a reply but can wait no longer. Time to ride after 16 hours of work. Tech-on with your own bad self.