[zedro]

Though, since you've chosen to respond to my inquiry, and given the extensive knowlege you exude on RM, it seems even more-so fascinating that you lean towards negating the Avalanche worthiness based on Craig's unwilliness to work with yours/new/unfamiliar designs. I understand you have not indicated Avalanche as a bad shock, but I have taken much of what you've indicated here as a downplay of it's worthiness.

lemmee guess, your an Avy booster right?

anyways, sorta in the same line as Krispy opinion, it simply isnt my best option (CS and limited tuning only one of the reasons), and it may not be for others. I know this is hard for cult members to understand, but there is no such thing as the 'best for everything', no matter what we are talking about.

I'm very sorry i havent used my "extensive knowlege (that I) exude on RM" to further glorify the ultimate-ness that is unquestionably bestowed upon Avy by all whom spend better than others. Thank you and god bless.

 

[tmx]

lemmee guess, your an Avy booster right?

anyways, sorta in the same line as Krispy opinion, it simply isnt my best option (CS and limited tuning only one of the reasons), and it may not be for others. I know this is hard for cult members to understand, but there is no such thing as the 'best for everything', no matter what we are talking about.

I'm very sorry i havent used my "extensive knowlege (that I) exude on RM" to further glorify the ultimate-ness that is unquestionably bestowed upon Avy by all whom spend better than others. Thank you and god bless.

God?? Oy vay. And you don't have to be sorry. You're definately jumping to conclusions about what I was asking Kris. I never said anything about Avalanche being best for all. I have never concluded that any bike related anything is best for all and often argue otherwise.

No sir, I'm not an "Avy booster" (and have plenty of personal experience to prove otherwise) and I'm bummed my post somehow left you feeling this is what my inquiry was about. I am genuinely intrigued that someone could conclude a product to be substantially worthy even though their experience with it was not a great one.

 

[zedro]

I am genuinely intrigued that someone could conclude a product to be substantially worthy even though their experience with it was not a great one.

oooooo ok, i'm stupid, i completly misinterpreted your comments. :

 

[ChrisRobin]

I think everyone should to back to basics here...take a piece of wood, soak it in the bath tube in warm, soapy water and bolt it into your frame.

 

[seismic]

I think everyone should to back to basics here...take a piece of wood, soak it in the bath tube in warm, soapy water and bolt it into your frame.

Great idea Then if you meet a fan of another brand of wood-shocks in the wood, you can always smack him in the head with your piece of wood

 

[zedro]

yes ok but how do i tune said piece of wood? Is pine or maple better for high speed dropoffs?

 

[HTFR]

what about service, hoes the CS with this block of wood?

 

[zedro]

depens, or you on the fit list?

 

[seismic]

depens, or you on the fit list?

....and if not

 

[leprechaun]

Fascinating to me that these quote come from the same individual. "If we all had similar frames we might be able to ride AVYs and get a good feel." "I too owned an avy and for me it sucked!"

Hey Krispy, can you explain what it was about the Av that made you feel the componant was a valuable asset even though it wasn't serving you properly with the frame you were running at the time?

Thanks,
Terry (You did give my regards to Mrs. B, right?!!!)

Hey Terry
Ok say we were to all ride bikes that were made by 5 different brands but all has a rising rate linkage,same travel, 3 to 1 leverage rate and were ridden in similar terrain.And lets say that we have been riding these bikes for 15 years this way.
It would be relatively easy for Craig or any other tuner to set up the shock nearly perfectly, and the tuner could also make adjustments for individual riders'ablilty level and needs and get good results.
I feel that if you have the right bike the avy would be a very valuable component.
I made the comment that mine sucked-and immediatly told why-to bring a face to my post.I was trying to convey that despite my knowledge in suspension i could still have a bad experience due to having a unique problem.
I'm a little suprised that you would put those 2 quotes right next to each other though.

 

[ChrisRobin]

Now that I think of it...I'm surprised no one's come out with some sort of 'upgrade' kit for suspension forks. Once in a while you see posts about people complaining about compression spiking for example so would be interesting to see someone develop internals for a fork to give it better compression damping (kinda like Push Ind. modifying Fox RCs).

Or we keep going the way we are now: every two years sell your suspension for almost no money and pay a lot for new stuff.

 

[ChrisRobin]

yes ok but how do i tune said piece of wood? Is pine or maple better for high speed dropoffs?

It depends on how long you let it soak in the tub.

 

[zedro]

I was trying to convey that despite my knowledge in suspension i could still have a bad experience due to having a unique problem.

shows how far intellectual maturity will take you here

 

[zedro]

Now that I think of it...I'm surprised no one's come out with some sort of 'upgrade' kit for suspension forks. Once in a while you see posts about people complaining about compression spiking for example so would be interesting to see someone develop internals for a fork to give it better compression damping (kinda like Push Ind. modifying Fox RCs).

Or we keep going the way we are now: every two years sell your suspension for almost no money and pay a lot for new stuff.

well, there are for Boxxers at least. Then theres the inertia dampers from Stratos for various forks.

 

[buildyourown]

Now that I think of it...I'm surprised no one's come out with some sort of 'upgrade' kit for suspension forks. Once in a while you see posts about people complaining about compression spiking for example so would be interesting to see someone develop internals for a fork to give it better compression damping (kinda like Push Ind. modifying Fox RCs).

Or we keep going the way we are now: every two years sell your suspension for almost no money and pay a lot for new stuff.

Lots of companies have attempted the upgrade cart.
Mojo, White Bros, Englund.

The problem is that the cart costs as much as a new fork.

 

[ChrisRobin]

I was thinking of something like the Stratos ID cartridge that would fix rebound AND compression and that could be adapted to all kinds of forks.

 

[vitox]

i think there arent many upgrades and kits for forks because they change all the time and because there are so many brands, lots of r&d cost can get obsolete next sea otter, interbike, eurobike, etc.

 

[seismic]

Well, - if the companies just made some good forks for standard then we would not need all this crap.

 

[ChrisRobin]

Well, - if the companies just made some good forks for standard then we would not need all this crap.

Ha! good point.

 

[vitox]

why are we even talking about the old Vanilla stuff? its dead, gone, its so 1994.

and yeah, theres always room for custom tuning no matter what, but whats the use when the service is not available to me? I'm not going to deal with a guy who'll say "i dont know the bike, i'm not touching it".... "thats the way its supposed to be so i wont change it" or "i wont ship to canada because its too much of a bother"....

you know zed, ive been in your situation, meaning your EXACT situation, and my experience is pretty much totally opposite.

with that im not saying that craig is the most communicative seller ive dealt with, or that he is the kind of guy that doesnt mind taking forever on the phone to sell you his gear, but while keeping on the subject he has always been really helpful and very effective tuning-wise.

 

[seismic]

I agree!! Craig is super nice when it comes to service. I have to admit that Avalanche is the company where I have gotten the best service yet !! No doubt what so ever !

 

[tmx]

Hey Terry
Ok say we were to all ride bikes that were made by 5 different brands but all has a rising rate linkage,same travel, 3 to 1 leverage rate and were ridden in similar terrain.And lets say that we have been riding these bikes for 15 years this way.
It would be relatively easy for Craig or any other tuner to set up the shock nearly perfectly, and the tuner could also make adjustments for individual riders'ablilty level and needs and get good results.
I feel that if you have the right bike the avy would be a very valuable component.
I made the comment that mine sucked-and immediatly told why-to bring a face to my post.I was trying to convey that despite my knowledge in suspension i could still have a bad experience due to having a unique problem.
I'm a little suprised that you would put those 2 quotes right next to each other though.

Hey Kris, thanks for the explanation. I was hoping for specific detail to your particular experience but no worries. The bottom line without the detail has been obvious, your extensive experience with a wide variety of suspension (mx to dh and everything in between) enable you to sense if it's a good shock regardless if it performs optimally with your frame or not. Though I'm not quite as fluent in the minute details of the technical arena, I'm fascinated by it in others.

About the quotes...It was the dichotomy of the two that struck my interest, not that I was questioning you or their validity. Kinda sucks my inquiry was misunderstood by both you and Zedro. Was totally not waving the pro-Av flag nor calling you out. While the grab of those two quotes create a seeming dichotomy, they are not a contradiction and do not negate your point.

 

[leprechaun]

now Terry we all know that ALL Brooklyns come with:
1 Avy shocks
2 I love my brooklyn with an Avy bumper sticker
3 "If it don't have an Avy it better be a Hardtail" T shirt!


Love Krispy(and Carrie and little Tanner too)

 

[mack]

this is by far one of the more confusing RM threads.

stop the bickering, aka, misinterpritations. (sp?)

 

[thaflyinfatman]

When speaking relatively between the two, I don't agree. Relatively a DH mtb fork has to absorb a lot of impact. You fly through the air, go off drops, nasty rock gardens, etc...

This also gets into rate, because with the boxxer only being slowed down by it's springs, it is going to ride higher like you say, but never use much of it's travel except on large impacts. With a fork that has a compression damper, it can use more of it's travel, and still not bottom on the large impact. In the end, you end up with better suspension, because the suspension is doing what it is supposed to, suspend.

I dunno, you asked if you were the only person that doesn't see the need for compression damping. This may be true, but I can't think that all of the companies that use compression dampers; fox, RS, marzocchi, manitou, WB, avalanche, etc, are just putting them in there because they like to make extra parts and make their products heavier...?

A moto fork does everything a DH fork does (on a larger scale to boot, and if you think rock gardens are rough, take a close look at the braking bumps on a moto track one day - they can get to be nearly a foot deep!), but it does it with a relatively inanimate mass on top of it too (the 80 odd kilos of suspended bike). Unlike a person which will deform (ie bend your legs/arms) when he/she hits something, the moto simply smacks into it and the suspension has to deal with a lot of the impact on its own (neglecting throttle/brake use and weight shift by the rider, although these still can't replicate what a person can do on an mtb).

As you said (or implied) about rate, the Boxxer is pretty linear for the most part of its travel, but I have mine setup so as to resist bottoming pneumatically (ie oil height being fairly high), and at 210lbs with stock springs and bugger all compression damping, I feel that it works pretty well. It allows the fork to move pretty much unhindered on smaller stuff, and not bottom too harshly or blow through travel. Just my preference though, I guess. I used to love my Marzocchis, but I wouldn't go back to them now - the ride characteristics of the Boxxer (not just the damping, just the overall linear feel etc) is what I find works best for me. Obviously not for everyone though.

Like you said, they wouldn't make them if they didn't serve a purpose though (for some people at least). Maybe I'm just unusual with how I set my bike up, although most people I ride with have similar setups. I have noticed that a *small* amount of compression damping smooths the stroke out somewhat (maybe due to minor inconsistencies/friction effects of the springs/seals being ironed out?), but too much compression damping seems to compromise small-bump absorption and traction... and to me they are the most important things (being the racerhack that I am).

 

[Jm_]

too much compression damping seems to compromise small-bump absorption and traction... and to me they are the most important things (being the racerhack that I am).

I totally agree, too much can make the suspension feel pretty horrible. This is why the "compression" adjustments on some older products like fox vanilla RCs and 2000 cartridge marzocchis were just useless, the usefull range was so small but the adjustments were huge by comparission, so all they ended up doing was making the fork feel like crap when you turned them up.

 

[ChrisRobin]

I totally agree, too much can make the suspension feel pretty horrible. This is why the "compression" adjustments on some older products like fox vanilla RCs and 2000 cartridge marzocchis were just useless, the usefull range was so small but the adjustments were huge by comparission, so all they ended up doing was making the fork feel like crap when you turned them up.

What's the solution for people that still ride forks with useless compression dampers? At that point can you take them out because all they're doing is adding weight and causing hydraulic lock. What would happen then?

 

[Jm_]

What's the solution for people that still ride forks with useless compression dampers? At that point can you take them out because all they're doing is adding weight and causing hydraulic lock. What would happen then?

No, you're not making the distinction between a compression DAMPER and compression damping ADJUSTMENTS.

I didn't say the damper was useless, I said the range of adjustments was useless often.

 

[ChrisRobin]

I know what you're saying but what I meant is if you're not using your compression damping adjustment because it causes bad suspension performance, what's the use of having that damper in the fork???

 

[Jm_]

I know what you're saying but what I meant is if you're not using your compression adjustment because it causes bad suspension performance, what's the use of having that faulty damper in the fork???

it's still doing work. every marzocchi has a compression damper, even if it doesn't have adjustments. This is true for almost every high end fork. Do you need to be able to manually change your valve timing in your car constantly? No. Do your valves need to be timed correctly? Yes. Just because it's not adjustable doesn't mean it isn't doing anything. Your rear shock has a compression damper too, and on many shocks you can't ajust it. The romic only does low-speed compression ADJUSTMENT, but it most definitely has a compression damper.

I didn't say that a compression adjustment always resulted in bad performance either, we are talking about specific cases and shocks here.

 

[mack]

yes, dampners tend to be usefull.... try taking your out and letting us know how it works. u might just want to mount a pogo stick to the bike w/o a dampner.

 

[binary visions]

yes, dampners tend to be usefull.... try taking your out and letting us know how it works. u might just want to mount a pogo stick to the bike w/o a dampner.

Actually, absolutely nothing would happen if you removed the "dampner" from your fork...


...'cause it doesn't have one. It does have a damper though...

 

[Jeremy R]

Actually, absolutely nothing would happen if you removed the "dampner" from your fork...


...'cause it doesn't have one. It does have a damper though...

Yea, but how would that effect the dampenening? :dancing:

 

[binary visions]

Yea, but how would that effect the dampenening? :dancing:

Fork dampening is caused by people who are so busy crying about the fork that they have no time to ride it.

see also: 888 crowns, Boxxers

 

[Jeremy R]

Fork dampening is caused by people who are so busy crying about the fork that they have no time to ride it.

see also: 888 crowns, Boxxers

I had alot of fork dampening when I used to have a RST Hi-5.

 

[thaflyinfatman]

yes, dampners tend to be usefull.... try taking your out and letting us know how it works. u might just want to mount a pogo stick to the bike w/o a dampner.

No rebound damper = pogo. But we're talking about compression dampers here..

 

[zedro]

No rebound damper = pogo. But we're talking about compression dampers here..

which = clank clank...

 

[thaflyinfatman]

which = clank clank...

Huh??

 

[zedro]

Huh??

no compression damping = bottom out, unless your fork is insanely sprung which is crap anyways.

 

[thaflyinfatman]

no compression damping = bottom out, unless your fork is insanely sprung which is crap anyways.

Or you have some kind of progression, which pretty much every DH fork on the market does anyway... eg oil height adjustments. Marz forks have so little compression damping it's not funny (although that's what I'm often after) but are renowned for their ability to be set up so as not to bottom...