[Toshi]

Did you not get a 50/125cc scooter because you didn't wanna buy gas at all?

many reasons:

- i'm a nerd. i wanted to play with electrics, and wanted a project
- much lower emissions with my pacnw mix of 45% hydropower vs. a car, which in turn is ~2 orders of magnitude lower emissions* than a scooter or motorcycle (* smog forming, not just CO2)
- no insurance, registration, or licensing involved
- really low operating costs (~$0.0011/mile so far for the electricity)
- can park legally and for free anywhere a bike can vs. $2.50 a day at the hospital for motorcycles ($4.25/day for cars)
- can be tossed on the seattle metro buses' bike racks for longer trips

and, finally: it doesn't use gas. this has value to me in itself, and i figured if i talk the talk ($20/gal thread) i should try to walk the walk, too.

 

[SPINTECK]

I like it, was thinking of building one similar w/the wilderness energy kit, but never got around to it.

I don't understand why you need the torque wrench set-up??

 

[skatetokil]

When I lived in cuba, the popular ride was a normal bike with a leafblower engine mounted to the rear brake bosses. Basically the motor just had a rubber roller on the end of the driveshaft that wedged up on the rear wheel and away they went.

 

[Sherpa]

many reasons:

- i'm a nerd. i wanted to play with electrics, and wanted a project
- much lower emissions with my pacnw mix of 45% hydropower vs. a car, which in turn is ~2 orders of magnitude lower emissions* than a scooter or motorcycle (* smog forming, not just CO2)
- no insurance, registration, or licensing involved
- really low operating costs (~$0.0011/mile so far for the electricity)
- can park legally and for free anywhere a bike can vs. $2.50 a day at the hospital for motorcycles ($4.25/day for cars)
- can be tossed on the seattle metro buses' bike racks for longer trips

and, finally: it doesn't use gas. this has value to me in itself, and i figured if i talk the talk ($20/gal thread) i should try to walk the walk, too.

Hmm, the rules must be different in Arkansas. Anything under 50cc is considered a "motor powered bicycle" and doesn't have to be registered/titled/insured and can park at any bike rack. Plus, a parking pass for school costs $600 a year and the scooters free. My friend just got a Yamaha Zuma and I'm thinking about getting one.

 

[CBJ]

Toshi totally cool project. I wish NYC was a little more bike friendly but the roads are often scary.

 

[LordOpie]

Did you not get a 50/125cc scooter because you didn't wanna buy gas at all?

he probably wants to pedal too, but not get so sweaty on the way to work.

 

[Toshi]

I like it, was thinking of building one similar w/the wilderness energy kit, but never got around to it.

I don't understand why you need the torque wrench set-up??

okay, the crescent wrench: at low speeds the motor can exert 55 N-m of torque, measured at the tire. recall that torque = force times the length of the lever arm. well, since the wheel actually moves the bike it must be pushing against something exerting the same torque in the reverse direction.

what is this thing? typically it'd be the dropouts, where the length of the lever arm is the distance from the axle center to the axle's edge. this is about 6mm so from our equation we see the force will be huge. the torque arm I rigged with the wrench lengthens the lever arm to maybe 5", lowering the forces enough so that my dropouts don't shear off and cause me to eat my teeth.

high school physics, finally useful

 

[Toshi]

an update: i now have ridden/commuted about 425 miles on this thing, using under 10 kWh of electricity so far. how much does 1 kWh cost in the Pac NW these days? 3.76 cents...

yes, less than 1 cent per mile assuming my pedaling efforts were negligible (which is not a fair assumption but we'll let it slide). discounting the initial purchase price of this gear this is a lot cheaper than either food costs to fuel a "human engine" over that distance, or especially gas.

 

[splat]

I am seriously thinking about building something along those lines for winter commuting.

 

[Toshi]

I am seriously thinking about building something along those lines for winter commuting.

it's really great fun, as you can always pedal just as much as you want to. well, except on steep grades where you must pedal your heart out in any case.

for a simple yet high performance setup i'd recommend an eZee conversion kit from ebikes.ca along with a direct plugin Cycle Analyst. you can go for lithium (i did, and dig it) or if you want to save $250 and can live with a little less battery capacity and more weight then you can substitute NiMH.

i wouldn't recommend any of the complete bikes out there, whether from eZee or Walmart or what have you. they're pretty ghetto for the price, and are limited by law to much lower levels of fun.

http://ebikes.ca/store/store_kits.php

and, of course, http://ebikes.ca for general info.

 

[splat]

no no no, a kit is too easy, I plan to do the home made thing from scratch and parts.

 

[Toshi]

no no no, a kit is too easy, I plan to do the home made thing from scratch and parts.

any progress, splat?



today i swapped out my ebikes.ca LiFePO4 pack's BMS (battery management system) for an updated version. this updated version is reputed to keep the cells in better balance than the old version. fwiw, the old version worked pretty well for me, as here are the voltages on the 15 cells in my nominally 48V pack after riding about 2 miles in very hilly terrain:

starting closest to cord then moving in 1-5 order per row, 3 rows:
3.30
3.31
3.30
3.31
3.30

3.30
3.30
3.28
3.30
3.30

3.30
3.30
3.30
3.31
3.30

in any case ebikes.ca sent me the new BMS, shrinkwrap, and instructions for free. you can follow along in their instructions here: http://ebikes.ca/BMS_Replacement.pdf . i apologize for the poor quality of the phonecam pics -- i sold my dSLR a few months ago and haven't replaced it yet.

here's the battery stripped of its outer shrinkwrap:

a top view showing its logical layout quite well after the fiberglass panel is retracted:

the business end once a protective plastic cover is loosened and removed, with the green circuit board being the old BMS:

this was probably the most difficult part, freeing the BMS from the pack while leaving the glued-on foam attached to the pack rather than to the old circuitry:

the BMS freed of its connection to the individual cells (white connector) and to the battery negative and pack negative leads (via a soldering iron):

here are the corresponding leads soldered back in place on the new, red BMS circuit board:

and here is the pack after re-shrink wrapping and taping over the ends with waterproof duct tape:

at the beginning and end of this procedure the total pack voltage was 49.3V via my multimeter, about par for the course after riding a bit, so i trust that it's still functional. it's charging up now for this afternoon's rides -- yes, i actually have the day off!

 

[splat]

any progress, splat?

Well I got a rear wheel that I want , ( a flip flop fixed/single speed Hub/wheel. ) and a motor , next to hunt for junky frames that will fit the bill for what I want

but lately I have been playing with the home made super bight LED laghts

 

[SkaredShtles]

Why don't you shag the girlfriend on the day off for Christ's sake?

 

[Toshi]

Why don't you shag the girlfriend on the day off for Christ's sake?

<brian hcm#1>but that still leaves 23h 59m in the day?!</brian hcm#1>

she teaches on an island and lives about 20 miles north of me, by the ferry terminal to said island. with me not having a car (besides hating the drive up -- it's horrid in traffic) we basically only see each other on weekends.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<brian hcm#1>but that still leaves 23h 59m in the day?!</brian hcm#1>

she teaches on an island and lives about 20 miles north of me, by the ferry terminal to said island. with me not having a car (besides hating the drive up -- it's horrid in traffic) we basically only see each other on weekends.

The internet is for pr0n, man... not for doing electric bike research.

 

[Toshi]

Well I got a rear wheel that I want , ( a flip flop fixed/single speed Hub/wheel. ) and a motor , next to hunt for junky frames that will fit the bill for what I want

but lately I have been playing with the home made super bight LED laghts

any more progress, splat?

my ride is still my only way i can get to work when i have to be there earlier than the bus runs (ie, 90% of the time). it's been reliable enough that i actually sold my regular road bike.

energy usage:



stats:

Cumulative mileage: 713.198
Cumulative kWh hour usage: 18.756432
Price of electricity: $0.71
Price per mile: $0.000988844392721
Average Wh / mile: 25.27

photos from 1/31/09:

 

[Toshi]

i have the electric upgrade bug. my Crystalyte 407 was the best commercially available choice when i built my bike last year, but since then better options have come to the market. here are some "dyno graphs" via ebikes.ca's hub motor simulator. all simulations with a 26" wheel, 48V 18Ah NiMh so as to not have C limitations, units of mph, N-m.

Nine Continents 2806 at 20A and 35A:

Nine Continents 2807 at 20A and 35A:

Crystalyte 407 at 20A and 35A:

whew, that's a lot of graphs. for simplicity's sake let's look at torque, power, and efficiency at 15 mph and at 25 mph.

at 15 mph (torque; power; efficiency):
NC 2806/20A: 32 N-m; 630W; 67%
NC 2806/35A: 48 N-m; 970W; 64%
NC 2807/20A: 31 N-m; 620W; 67%
NC 2807/35A: 47 N-m; 950W; 63%
CL 407/20A: 28 N-m; 560W; 60%
CL 407/35A: 41 N-m; 820W; 55%

at 25 mph:
NC 2806/20A: 22 N-m; 750W; 81%
NC 2806/35A: 36 N-m; 1200W; 80%
NC 2807/20A: 22 N-m; 750W; 81%
NC 2807/35A: 31 N-m; 1030W; 80%
CL 407/20A: 19 N-m; 650W; 76%
CL 407/35A: 21 N-m; 700W; 77%

from my first glance at these numbers it looks like my 407 is outclassed soundly. the Nine Continents 2806 is essentially equal to the 2807 at 15 mph and has a much better top end.

moral of the story: i think in a few months after i move to new york my fiancée (wife by then) might be getting a new bike that'll have the current Crystalyte 407/48V/20A controller gear, and my current physical bike will get a Nine Continents 2806 and a 30A controller. (she's ok with this plan as she doesn't like to ride fast [!].)

i've emailed the simulator maintainers to make sure these figures are accurate. the only caveat i can think of is that one's battery must be able to flow current at 1500W, but my 48V 12Ah LiFePO4 is rated for 40A discharge iirc so i should be fine.

 

[Toshi]

i just listed my electric bike for sale. my commute this year is a five minute walk, and the drivers here in long island frankly scare me in a car, let alone on a bicycle. riding on the sidewalk isn't all that fun and i've been neglecting my beast…

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110418578435

 

[Toshi]

An update to a long-dormant thread:

The e-bike, now living in Wyoming, wasn't working. My parents, despite two PhDs and an MD between them, are useless with electric stuff, so I ordered them a bunch of parts guessing that the rain-corroded Hall sensors on the hub motor or perhaps the always-balky Crystalyte controller had given out. The new loot: 2806 Nine Continents front hub motor; 35A Infineon controller with regen; e-brake lever to allow for said regen; brand-spanking new throttle just in case it was the weak link. Basically everything was replaced save for the battery and the Cycle Analyst.

I had all this shipped out to my parents ahead of my planned vacation visit last week. When I arrived there, however, I was dismayed to find the battery cranking out all of 1.0V... total. No, not per cell, but instead the output of the whole 15S LiFePO4 pack. Gah. I ordered a replacement 48V LiMn pack and charger for the parents to use and abuse in the meantime and took the battery home to try to revive at the advice of people on endless-sphere.com.

At home, lo and behold, it seems like the original, flat LiFePO4 pack may yet be salvageable! I busted the soldering iron out and bypassed the BMS, plugged in the charger, and then watched the voltage rise slowly and steadily! When it reached a nominal 48V (keeping in mind that it's normally 55V+ off the charger when fully charged in a normal state) I soldered in the BMS back into the circuit. It's currently on the charger in this state, and I'm hoping that it'll be as good as new afterwards.

Assuming the battery is indeed revived then the only thing my parents' garage will be missing for a second, complete e-bike powertrain is a Cycle Analyst! Of course, all this stuff (save for the battery that I'm trying to resuscitate) is in Wyoming whereas I'm in New York and don't really need an e-bike at the moment, anyway. I think it'll all just sit there as spare parts for the foreseeable future.

 

[IH8Rice]

just curious, if you were to buy a pre-built lithium electric bike, how much would you spend?

im in talks with someone to import a slew of different models and was curious what others would actually spend on models.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Very cool. How much maintenence do you think this bike will require... outside the standard norm obviously... really just talking about the motorized bits.

 

[Toshi]

just curious, if you were to buy a pre-built lithium electric bike, how much would you spend?

im in talks with someone to import a slew of different models and was curious what others would actually spend on models.

"Lithium electric bike" still leaves too much up in the air. Is it a 24V Currie system? A 36V Panasonic job? A no-name Chinese vendor hackjob?

 

[Toshi]

Very cool. How much maintenence do you think this bike will require... outside the standard norm obviously... really just talking about the motorized bits.

It actually ended up requiring (note past tense) more than its share of maintenance. In particular, the Hall sensors in the hub motor corroded thanks to being ridden twice-daily in the often-wet Seattle weather. This corrosion required me to switch controllers but only after I broke open the motor itself and tried (unsuccessfully) to solder in new Hall sensors.

If I'd specced it from the start with a "pedal-first" controller that uses back-EMF instead of Hall-effect sensors to determine wheel speed and position then I wouldn't have run into this problem. As a whole, however, the bike was definitely more appropriate for a hobbyist like me who didn't mind stopping to check loose connections after power mysteriously dropped out over a bump. Such a package isn't ready for prime time: go to Zero or Brammo and buy a complete electric motorcycle if that's what you're after.

 

[IH8Rice]

"Lithium electric bike" still leaves too much up in the air. Is it a 24V Currie system? A 36V Panasonic job? A no-name Chinese vendor hackjob?

i believe they are 36v/10Ah batteries w/ a 250w motor and the are indeed from the mainland of China

 

[Toshi]

i believe they are 36v/10Ah batteries w/ a 250w motor and the are indeed from the mainland of China

These are 24V 10Ah but are probably otherwise near-identical: http://www.walmart.com/ip/iZip-Via-Rapido-Diamond-Frame-27-Men-s-Electric-Bike/14237425

$900 from Walmart... so I wouldn't pay more than, say, $500 for the same from a 3rd party importer given that the Walmart one can be returned to any big-box store when/if it breaks while the importer can offer no such comparable local "support."

 

[IH8Rice]

These are 24V 10Ah but are probably otherwise near-identical: http://www.walmart.com/ip/iZip-Via-Rapido-Diamond-Frame-27-Men-s-Electric-Bike/14237425

$900 from Walmart... so I wouldn't pay more than, say, $500 for the same from a 3rd party importer given that the Walmart one can be returned to any big-box store when/if it breaks while the importer can offer no such comparable local "support."

it is fairly close to that model and prices start at $700 and up. that one of the nice things about shopping at Walmart, you get the (almost) no questions asked return/exchange. but the importer/retailer does have tech support and is currently sold through some big box chain store's online sites.

thanks

 

[Toshi]

The e-bike is reborn: It's now back in my possession (my parents baby-sat it for a few years), has a new, more powerful drivetrain including regenerative braking, and its maiden ride has been accomplished. Stats from said maiden voyage:

- 8.2 miles, 4.6 Ah, equating to 27.8 Wh/mi, or 1,212 MPGe if that is more meaningful to you
- max speed without pedaling, wide open throttle around 27 mph on flat ground
- with me pedaling along on top of WOT I could get it up to 30 mph
- comfortable cruising speed was more in the range of 23-25 mph while pedaling along, throttle part of the way open
- max indicated power from the battery to the controller (so less at the wheel due to motor inefficiency) was about 1600W at 27 mph
- max regen coming down from 25 mph was around 550W, decreasing as speed decreases, with overall 6% of power input regened on my errand run today

I'm going to use it as much as possible for my current, Long Island commute. Assuming this ~<30 Wh/mi energy usage holds true for my commute then the current 48V 10Ah LiMn pack on it should get me to work and back without a recharge there, since it's a flat journey just shy of 7 miles each way. I can always slow down a bit and pedal more, too, if I need to get down to more like 25 Wh/mi.

Once I move back to Seattle in 9 months (!) then I'll run both the 48V 10Ah pack and the other 48V 12Ah pack in parallel so that I have enough juice, as it were, for that hilly 12 mile-each-way commute.

Anyway, in celebration of it being back together and working I snapped some photos of it post-first-ride:

9 Continent 2806.

OG V2.0 CycleAnalyst firmware.

Note both the Nexus 7 twist shifter on the left as well as the e-brake cable emanating from the lever for regen.

Airzound air horn. It's LOUD.

48V 35A Infineon controller, now relocated to the rack from within the frame as on previous iterations of this bike. The left pannier holds a 48V 10Ah LiMn battery, with another 48V 12Ah LiFePO4 battery hanging out with my parents since UPS refuses to ship it.

Part of my rear lighting/reflector setup. There's another flasher on the seatpost. Yes, I'm paranoid.

 

[CBJ]

The has uber nerd written all over it. You really need to give the bike a name.

Battery help would be nice in Seattle with all the hills but why not a good road bike and get in better shape?

 

[Westy]

The has uber nerd written all over it. You really need to give the bike a name.

Battery help would be nice in Seattle with all the hills but why not a good road bike and get in better shape?

If Toshi lost weight, none of his high-vis reflective tape ensconced gear would fit anymore.

 

[CBJ]

He he good point.

 

[Toshi]

The has uber nerd written all over it. You really need to give the bike a name.

Battery help would be nice in Seattle with all the hills but why not a good road bike and get in better shape?

My Seattle commute will be from atop the Admiral hill in West Seattle to UWMC. That's 12 miles each way with a sizeable hill. I don't have the testicular fortitude to do that every day. Yes, I know dante's wife does more than that each day on her fixie. She simply has bigger balls then me.

For here in Long Island it's admittedly overkill, but it's also definitely more fun than the my pedal-powered 29er and much quieter and more efficient than my motorcycle. (Taking the car isn't an option as we're down to one between my wife and me so she gets it by default.)

If Toshi lost weight, none of his high-vis reflective tape ensconced gear would fit anymore.

:derp: I'm not looking too fat these days, anyway, I hope:

 

[Jeremy R]

You really need to give the bike a name.

I would call it the Amelia Earhart.
Because after just one look at it, you can make a woman disappear forever.

 

[Toshi]

I would call it the Amelia Earhart.
Because after just one look at it, you can make a woman disappear forever.

Given that I'm married and teh wife is pregnant at the moment I'm ok with that. As long as she doesn't leave me, that is. She really wants a RAV4 EV for herself and digs things electrified in general, so this is unlikely to be the final straw&#8230;

The interesting question, IMO, is what I'll do following my year in Seattle. During that year I'm committed to taking the bus or this e-bike monstrosity since parking at UW is $15/day and we're constrained to living in West Seattle since we'll be hanging out rent-free in the mother-in-law's house.

After that year will I revert to the quintessentially American behavior of commuting in a car, especially since I'll have a young kid in the picture, too? (Furthermore, will I get that 3-ton SUV I've posted about half in jest at long last?) Will I tough it out on the e-bike, risk of being run over be damned? Will I build myself an ultralight and fly into work instead? Electric unicycle, perhaps?!

 

[Jeremy R]

Given that I'm married and teh wife is pregnant at the moment I'm ok with that. As long as she doesn't leave me, that is. She really wants a RAV4 EV for herself and digs things electrified in general, so this is unlikely to be the final straw&#8230;

The interesting question, IMO, is what I'll do following my year in Seattle. During that year I'm committed to taking the bus or this e-bike monstrosity since parking at UW is $15/day and we're constrained to living in West Seattle since we'll be hanging out rent-free in the mother-in-law's house.

After that year will I revert to the quintessentially American behavior of commuting in a car, especially since I'll have a young kid in the picture, too? (Furthermore, will I get that 3-ton SUV I've posted about half in jest at long last?) Will I tough it out on the e-bike, risk of being run over be damned? Will I build myself an ultralight and fly into work instead? Electric unicycle, perhaps?!

Ha, yeah I was just joking. I am surprised my wife even lets me in bed after seeing me ride a regular road bike. If a woman can see you in bib shorts and still love you, well then you have found a keeper. Same thing goes for that time machine you are riding!
Congrats on the kid as well. Having a kid changed my mindset on things like commuting. I take my little girl to preschool everyday, and there is no way I am exposing her to the dangers (read idiots) of the road here on a bicycle. I wish things were different but wishing does not keep you from being run over.
Good luck with everything. You have some big changes coming up!