[Echo]

...and most likely my last

I saw this today and I'm interested in what other people think about it.

T Boat Quotes about John Kerry

"We resent very deeply the false war crimes charges he made coming back from Vietnam in 1971 and repeated in the book "Tour of Duty." We think those cast an aspersion on all those living and dead, from our unit and other units in Vietnam. We think that he knew he was lying when he made the charges, and we think that they're insupportable. We intend to bring the truth about that to the American people.

We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is totally unfit to be the Commander-in-Chief."
-- John O'Neill, spokesman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth

"I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of the United States. This is not a political issue. It is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and trust -- all absolute tenets of command. His biography, 'Tour of Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross exaggerations, distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His contempt for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual review of this biography.

He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical assignments. He was a 'loose cannon.' In an abbreviated tour of four months and 12 days, and with his specious medals secure, Lt.(jg) Kerry bugged out and began his infamous betrayal of all United States forces in the Vietnam War. That included our soldiers, our marines, our sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our POWs.

His leadership within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testimony before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities remain an undocumented but nevertheless meticulous stain on the men and women who honorably stayed the course. Senator Kerry is not fit for command."

-- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, USN (retired), chairman, Swift Boat
Veterans for Truth

"During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three specific operations, before his rapid exit. Trust, loyalty and judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families.
Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)

"Thirty-five years ago, many of us fell silent when we came back to the stain of sewage that Mr. Kerry had thrown on us, and all of our colleagues who served over there. I don't intend to be silent today or ever again.

Our young men and women who are serving deserve no less."

-- Andrew Horne

"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority, and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report them. That he did not until later when it suited his political purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind.
That he would malign my service and that of his fellow sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."

-- Jeffrey Wainscott

"I signed that letter because I, too felt a deep sense of betrayal that someone who took the same oath of loyalty as I did as an officer in the United States Navy would abandon his group here (points to group photo) to join this group here (points to VVAW protest photo), and come home and attempt to rally the American public against the effort that this group was so valiantly pursuing.
It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major battle. We lost the war at home .. and at home, John Kerry was the Field General."

-- Robert Elder

"My daughters and my wife have read portions of the book 'Tour of Duty.' They wanted to know if I took part in the atrocities described. I do not believe the things that are described happened.
Let me give you an example. In Brinkley's book, on pages 170 to 171, about something called the 'Bo De massacre' on November 24th of 1968... In Kerry's description of the engagement, first he claimed there were 17 servicemen that were wounded. Three of us were wounded. I was the first..."
-- Joseph Ponder

"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom.

Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities.
Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly casualties."

-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)

 

[Echo]

...and it continues...

"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous statements and allegations ... of numerous criminal acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict. Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam? Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry have numerous speeches and testimony before Congress inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those within the chain of command.
Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and property of Vietnamese civilians."

-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)

"We look at Vietnam ... after all these years it is still languishing in isolated poverty and helplessness and tyranny. This is John Kerry's legacy. I deeply resent John Kerry's using his Swift boat experience, and his betrayal of those who fought there as a steppingstone to his political ambitions."

-- Barnard Wolff

"In a whole year that I spent patrolling, I didn't see anything like a war crime, an atrocity, anything like that. Time and again I saw American fighting men put themselves in graver danger trying to avoid collateral damage.

When John Kerry returned to the country, he was sworn in front of Congress. And then he told my family -- my parents, my sister, my brother, my neighbors -- he told everyone I knew and everyone I'd ever know that I and my comrades had committed unspeakable atrocities."

-- David Wallace

"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them, and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men including Lt.(jg) Kerry.

In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls one to think about it."

-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)

"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the Navy units.

Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because the Vietcong controlled most of
the area. When I left, I could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover and so on. That conference never happened..."

-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired)

"I was in An Thoi from June of '68 to June of '69, covering the whole period that John Kerry was there. I operated in every river, in every canal, and every offshore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from Cambodia all the way around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even heard of all of these so-called atrocities and things that we were supposed to have done.

This is not true. We're not standing for it. We want to set the record straight."

-- William Shumadine

"In 1971, when John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam veterans as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to my knees, because even though I had served at the same time and same unit, I had never witnessed or participated in any of the events that the Senator had accused us of. I strongly believe that the statements made by the Senator were not only false and inaccurate, but extremely harmful to the United States' efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world. Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide. Two of my crewmates were among them. For that there is no forgiveness. "

-- Richard O'Meara

"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy ... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"

-- Steven Gardner

"I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John Kerry was in An Thoi the same time I was. I'm here today to express the anger I have harbored for over 33 years, about being accused with my fellow shipmates of war atrocities.

All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the Wall to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other 49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best."

-- Robert Brant

"I never saw, heard of, or participated in any Swift boat crews killing cattle, poisoning crops, or raping and killing civilians as charged by John Kerry, both in his book and in public statements. Since we both operated at the same time, in the same general area, and on the same missions under the same commanders, it is hard to believe his claims of atrocities and poor planning of Sea Lord missions.

I signed this letter because I feel that he used Swift boat sailors to proclaim his antiwar statements after the war, and now he uses the same Swift boat sailors to support his claims of being a war hero. He cannot have it both ways, and we are here to ask for full disclosure of the proof of his claims."

-- James Steffes

 

[Westy]

Oh crap, so both candidates are unfit to be CIC. Hopefully there will be a sniper at the first debate with two bullets.

 

[fluff]

What happened at My Lai again?

 

[Dirt rider]

What happened at My Lai again?

I order takeout from a place called My lai...

 

[N8 v2.0]

HAHA!

Yeah, Kerry isn't too popular with those that served with him.

Check out the site, "Swift Boat Vets for Truth" mentioned in Echo's post.

Linky: http://coral.he.net/~swiftvet/

 

[N8 v2.0]

What happened at My Lai again?

What happened to all major German cities in WWII again (compliments of the RAF)?

 

[fluff]

What happened to all major German cities in WWII again (compliments of the RAF)?

Many civilians died. The USAF helped by the way...

Care to answer my question now?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Many tens of thousands of civilians died. The USAF helped by the way...

Care to answer my question now?

There was no USAF in WWII.*

At My Lai a few civilians died.






*The USAF was formed in 1948. Up until then it was the US Army Air Corps.

 

[fluff]

There was no USAF in WWII..

The US had an air force in WWII and whatever it was called it was still involved.

At My Lai a few civilians died.

If you think anything in WWII (or anywhere else) justifies the unwarranted massacre of 500 (rather more than a "few") civilians then you are a sick man.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Whew, tht was a lot.

I stopped here:

"portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families"

Methinks Kerry probably had to watch and was told by his superiors to accept the hideous acts that were performed by our soldiers in vietnam and decided to act agains them. Simple as that... people didnt want to accept what happened over there then, no reason for them to now.

Kerry's actions, though I believe we are not getting the straight facts here, tell me this at least... he will make damn sure that a war is unavoidable before he starts blowing up other countries.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Oh crap, so both candidates are unfit to be CIC. Hopefully there will be a sniper at the first debate with two bullets.

Oh no, both candidates have been killed...

I guess that means Dick (fire pants) Cheney vs John (hairdo) Edwards

 

[Andyman_1970]

What happened at My Lai again?

How about those crusades? How many non-combatants were killed during the cursades, in the Name of God no less by your countrymen? How far in history do we get to go back?

Hold on.............I was reading something by this rabbi about the speck of dust in your brothers eye and the log in your own eye.........now where was that book..............................

 

[valve bouncer]

What happened to all major German cities in WWII again (compliments of the RAF)?

What happened to all major Japanese cities in WWII again (compliments of the USAAF)? Grow up N8. Weak as piss

 

[valve bouncer]

How about those crusades? How many non-combatants were killed during the cursades, in the Name of God no less by your countrymen? How far in history do we get to go back?

Hold on.............I was reading something by this rabbi about the speck of dust in your brothers eye and the log in your own eye.........now where was that book..............................

WW2 and the Vietnam war are in living memory of a lot of voters. It's fair to bring them up. Your post is a non sequitir. Expect better from you mate.

 

[fluff]

How about those crusades? How many non-combatants were killed during the cursades, in the Name of God no less by your countrymen? How far in history do we get to go back?

Hold on.............I was reading something by this rabbi about the speck of dust in your brothers eye and the log in your own eye.........now where was that book..............................

If you can be arsed to check the original post at the top of the thread it is about Vietnam.

My Lai is a documented massacre in.... wait for it... Vietnam.

See the relevance?

It was N8 who tried to divert it. Your post not only completely misses the fact that his diversions are irrelevant when talking about war crimes in Vietnam it is totally irrelevant itself.

And where have I ever shown the slightest inclination to defend crimes committed by the British?

Get a f*cking grip!

 

[Slugman]

What happened to all major German cities in WWII again (compliments of the RAF)?

The reasons the US was involved and the reason behind the initial conflict are so different that bringing up WWII in a discussion about Vietnam is an insult to WWII veterans and survivors around the planet.

When did Vietnam attack another country? When did they sneak attack the US? What race/religion did the North Vietnamese try to eradicate from the planet?

 

[Silver]

At My Lai a few civilians died.
][/size]

Just like a few civilians died in 9/11.

N8, you are one callous asshole. I'm having trouble finding the words.

What do you do, jerk off at night to the photo of the little girl who was burned by napalm? Maybe find some pictures of the concentration camps in WW2 and a little lotion, light a few candles, and think back to the good 'ole days when nobody gave a **** about innocent people getting killed?

 

[valve bouncer]

Just like a few civilians died in 9/11.

N8, you are one callous asshole. I'm having trouble finding the words.

What do you do, jerk off at night to the photo of the little girl who was burned by napalm? Maybe find some pictures of the concentration camps in WW2 and a little lotion, light a few candles, and think back to the good 'ole days when nobody gave a **** about innocent people getting killed?

Silver mate, why are you surprised at anything that Genghis writes. He's shown himself to be the most callous and hateful person on the board time and time again. Even the other frothers don't like him.

 

[Westy]

Silver mate, why are you surprised at anything that Genghis writes. He's shown himself to be the most callous and hateful person on the board time and time again. Even the other frothers don't like him.

N8's logic works great. It can work something like this The Nazi's were OK with the halocaust (sp?) because the US did such a great job with the Indians.

But you have to remember it only works when the people being killed have darker skin that those doing the killing so 9-11 was not OK.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Oh my god...

Valve & Silver... you both are a pair-o-drama queens.

So, bottom line iof that you are saying is, Kerry was part of the US military who committed war crimes whilst in combat, ergo, he's a war criminal..???

Pres. Bush on the other hand was flying the friendly skies of the US during the war, so is not a war criminal.

 

[Slugman]

Pres. Bush on the other hand was flying the friendly skies of the US during the war, so is not a war criminal.

He was flying the freindly HIGHs of Cocaine... but that is 'classified'

 

[N8 v2.0]

Read the book...

 

[fluff]

Oh my god...

Valve & Silver... you both are a pair-o-drama queens.

So, bottom line iof that you are saying is, Kerry was part of the US military who committed war crimes whilst in combat, ergo, he's a war criminal..???

Pres. Bush on the other hand was flying the friendly skies of the US during the war, so is not a war criminal.

Individuals commit war crimes. Ergo if Kerry committed war crimes he is a criminal and should face justice.

This logic stuff really isn't that hard N8. You should try it sometime.

 

[valve bouncer]

Oh my god...

Valve & Silver... you both are a pair-o-drama queens.

So, bottom line iof that you are saying is, Kerry was part of the US military who committed war crimes whilst in combat, ergo, he's a war criminal..???

Pres. Bush on the other hand was flying the friendly skies of the US during the war, so is not a war criminal.

Well if making you look like an idiot makes me a drama queen then I'm Sara Bernhardt.
Do I think the US military in Vietnam committed war crimes...absolutely......do I think the US military in Iraq committed war crimes...absolutley....who was the C.I.C in Iraq again?

 

[Westy]

How good of a leader Bush or Kerry was 30 years ago is of little relavance today. IMO Bush's experience in the military means nothing today, same thing witht Kerry. The main diff is Kerry has been to war, and experienced it. That means something when someone is in a position to send others into a similar situation.

 

[BurlyShirley]

The reasons the US was involved and the reason behind the initial conflict are so different that bringing up WWII in a discussion about Vietnam is an insult to WWII veterans and survivors around the planet.

When did Vietnam attack another country? When did they sneak attack the US? What race/religion did the North Vietnamese try to eradicate from the planet?

Uh...wasnt North Vietnam invading south? Or does that not count as invading another country for some BS reason you're about to make up?

 

[valve bouncer]

Uh...wasnt North Vietnam invading south? Or does that not count as invading another country for some BS reason you're about to make up?

Come on Shirl...that's a real short plank to walk down............

 

[BurlyShirley]

Come on Shirl...that's a real short plank to walk down............

Hey! I was there man! I was there...

 

[valve bouncer]

Hey! I was there man! I was there...

Man I know you were and I'll be the last man on earth to say your puff pieces weren't the best ever to go into Stars and Stripes, but c'mon

 

[Slugman]

Uh...wasnt North Vietnam invading south? Or does that not count as invading another country for some BS reason you're about to make up?

Hmmm... I do not remember a north or south vietnam before the war. I beleive it was an internal political struggle that we jumped into b/c communism has going to destroy "THE AMERICAN WAY"...

EDIT - My bad... it was N&S (just looked into it). :nuts: (self)

The division was created by outside forces(i.e. US, France, China...) while trying to remove the Japanese after WWII. Ho Chi Min had tried to create a single country but the US refused to recognize it.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

 

[N8 v2.0]

I blame, #1 the French and #2 the Democats for Viet Nam.

 

[Westy]

I blame, #1 the French and #2 the Democats for Viet Nam.

I bet you say the same thing when you burn your toast or get a paper cut.

 

[RhinofromWA]

I bet you say the same thing when you burn your toast or get a paper cut.

lol

I know I would blame Edison for the lightbulb to see my burnt toast and MOther nature for them damn trees..*homer Simpson mental voice mumbleing*..giving me paper cuts....I show them....

 

[valve bouncer]

I blame, #1 the French and #2 the Democats for Viet Nam.

Damn those French universities....... you're possibly right on the first part......after the Belgians the French were possibly the worst colonialists. The Democrats I'll let you expand on but possibly could be the first post ever that you've said something worth talking about.

 

[Toshi]

Damn those French universities....... you're possibly right on the first part......after the Belgians the French were possibly the worst colonialists. The Democrats I'll let you expand on but possibly could be the first post ever that you've said something worth talking about.

dems = yes. "the best and the brightest", blech. on par with bush's group of "vulcans" or whatever they're calling themselves today

 

[Andyman_1970]

WW2 and the Vietnam war are in living memory of a lot of voters. It's fair to bring them up. Your post is a non sequitir. Expect better from you mate.

If you can be arsed to check the original post at the top of the thread it is about Vietnam.

My Lai is a documented massacre in.... wait for it... Vietnam.

See the relevance?

It was N8 who tried to divert it. Your post not only completely misses the fact that his diversions are irrelevant when talking about war crimes in Vietnam it is totally irrelevant itself.

And where have I ever shown the slightest inclination to defend crimes committed by the British?

Get a f*cking grip!

Note to self before posting on Political Debate forum........(as I jot this down on a post-it to put on my monitor)

1. Pay attention to the OP and the discussion that is taking place.

2. When those ideas or thoughts pop into your head, make sure you can fully develope it and they are relevant to the OP (see #1)

3. Give fluff a wide berth............

Am I forgeting anything..........................

 

[BurlyShirley]

Hmmm... I do not remember a north or south vietnam before the war. I beleive it was an internal political struggle that we jumped into b/c communism has going to destroy "THE AMERICAN WAY"...

EDIT - My bad... it was N&S (just looked into it). :nuts: (self)

The division was created by outside forces(i.e. US, France, China...) while trying to remove the Japanese after WWII. Ho Chi Min had tried to create a single country but the US refused to recognize it.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

I dont get it.

People dont chastise the French for helping out the American colonies during the American revolution. I mean, they were an outside force working against imperialism, which happened to also suit their own interests...while keeping a people free.

 

[valve bouncer]

dems = yes. "the best and the brightest", blech. on par with bush's group of "vulcans" or whatever they're calling themselves today

Interesting mate.....best bit was at the end where Armitage interrupted the pakistani ambassador and said "history starts today"......scary really.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Damn those French universities....... you're possibly right on the first part......after the Belgians the French were possibly the worst colonialists. The Democrats I'll let you expand on but possibly could be the first post ever that you've said something worth talking about.

#1 Blaming the French for Vietnam
- Frog bastids were BRUTALLY oppressive rulers. The Truman should have forced them to give up all of their former empire after they completely rolled over to the Nazi's and especially when they went semi-commie after the war.


#2 Blaming the Dems for Vietnam

- Blame Truman who didn't nuke the commies at the conclusion of WWII. This led to the soviet build up and colonization of numerous countries. Shoulda let Gen Patton drive on to Moscow like he wanted to.

- Blame JFK for messing around in country with 'advisors' to prop up an unpopular, albeit non-commie, regime.

-Blame LBJ for escalating the war and sacrificing thousands of GI's by hamstringing them with ridiculously restrictive ROE's.