[Raaar]

I pulled the rear end of a horst link bike apart last night to clean & grease the bearings. Just for kicks, I cycled the suspension to see how much the wheelpath atually changed in comparison to a single pivot.
Guess what? The pivot at the rear of the chainstay had no movement what so ever in any part of the suspension cycle. So, for all intents and purposes, it might as well have been a "Faux bar" design (or linkage actuated SP).
Just to check myself, I merely handtightened all bearings to ensure free movement, but still no change. I even installed the shock and cycled it under pressure...no change.
This is the kind of thing that makes me go "Hmmmmmmm". I can see why manufacturers ahve gone to the faux-bar on their designs...in addition to not dishing out cash to Spec. for a liscence, certain applications just plain don't work.

 

[binary visions]

We know

Horst links don't vary the axle path very much over a seatstay-mounted pivot.

The only advantage that Horst links have is a small improvement in breaking characteristics.

This has been gone over ad nauseum in the Downhill forum if you'd like some tedious reading material

 

[blue]

This has been gone over ad nauseum in the Downhill forum if you'd like some tedious reading material

Oh god, the suspension debates in that forum...

 

[Reactor]

And the funny thing is that you can make a good bike with a large variety of good suspension designs. So many things are more important, like say frame geometry.....

 

[binary visions]

Oh god, the suspension debates in that forum...

Meh. I find them interesting. The trick is not to take it all too seriously - in reality, a lot of bikes ride really well with sub-optimal suspension designs just because they fit well or they've got a well thought out component group. The discussions should be taken for what they are - an intellectual debate on physics, not a determination of what bike you should buy.

A bike with poor geometry will ride poorly even if the suspension design is perfect. By the same token, a bike with great geometry will ride nicely even if it bobs like Anna Nicole Smith on a half-dead rich guy.

 

[OGRipper]

^^^^ yeah what BV said. Those discussions are fun and you can learn a lot, even if a lot of it is purely theoretical it's still fun to indulge your inner (outer?) geek.

 

[Raaar]

Well, I feel cheated. I wanted to see some magical movement that kept the wheel on a vertical path, isolated braking forces, eliminated pedal bob,and made be a 120% better rider. DAMN THE MARKETING HYPE!

 

[brungeman]

my understanding about the Horst Link is that it eliminates almost all brake jack. as for the pivot design the VP will keep the lineal motion better, but they are both very good designs. I think Turner did away with the horst link on one of their redesigned bikes because the benefits, of having it on THAT model were not worth the costs (paying the patent fees) !

 

[binary visions]

my understanding about the Horst Link is that it eliminates almost all brake jack. as for the pivot design the VP will keep the lineal motion better, but they are both very good designs. I think Turner did away with the horst link on one of their redesigned bikes because the benefits, of having it on THAT model were not worth the costs (paying the patent fees) !

Your understanding isn't really correct, sorry.

The "virtual pivot" on a Horst link isn't really a "virtual pivot" - the axle path is almost exactly a concentric circle around the pivot behind the BB. Same as a low, rearward single pivot like a Turner DHR or a non-Horst 4-bar like a Kona Stinky.

And the Horst link helps to make the braking more neutral (that is, to avoid the stiffening of the rear suspension that is often incorrectly known as "brake jack"). It doesn't eliminate it even close to 100%, just makes it a little better.

Turner has done away with the Horst link on all of their bikes, because the small performance gain wasn't worth the licensing fees they were paying to both Specialized and Tony Ellsworth for the ICT patent.

Structurally, doing away with the Horst link is actually an improvement - you can make the rear linkage stiffer since there's no second pivot between the axle and the frame.

 

[SkaredShtles]

^^^^ yeah what BV said. Those discussions are fun and you can learn a lot, even if a lot of it is purely theoretical it's still fun to indulge your inner (outer?) geek.

Exactly! It's mental

 

[towelie]

Well, naturally the closer the Horst Link is to the axle, this less difference it'll make. It should move a little though. Try to measure the difference in distance between your BB pivot and your upper seatstay pivot. Any movement will be amplified there. It probably move a little.

That said, Trek Fuels and Gary Fisher Sugars/Cakes don't even bother putting a pivot there just because there is so little need for it. The dropout or seatstay has to flex a little to make up for the lack of the pivot, but not much. Not a very "elegant" design if you ask me, but it seems to work OK.

 

[joelsman]

all turners are now non hurst-link.