[Electric_City]

On FB marketplace, FB vintage DH bike, What's my vintage bike worth, ebay, etc... I keep seeing people post that "this" Specialized was Made in the USA. A Demo 9 from 2005 is the latest. A 1999 Specialized DH bike with the Manitou DC fork on it and several others.

Did Specialized ever make a bike in the USA? To my knowledge they never did, but I'm up for being edjukated if I'm wrong.

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

They made some of the earlier M2 hard tails in Utah (I believe), and they definitely made the all titanium lugged/carbon tubed Epic Ultimates at the home base in Morgan Hill, CA!

When I was working there years later I came across boxes of the ti lugs/BBs/HTs that Litespeed made for them.
I hoarded them for years hoping to use them for something, but never did...

1" head tubes and 68mm BBs were hard to find a use for, and they were sized for tiny carbon tubes.

 

[jonKranked]

i think they were making the s-works frames in the US up until around the very early 00s. i used to have an '01 s-works DH, and IIRC that was US made.

edit: after the s-works DH, the big hit, and then the demo released later, were not US made.

 

[vivisectxi]

i've got one of those carbon / ti epic ultimate frames - with a made in usa sticker. titanium lugs fabbed by merlin, frame glued together @ morgan hill. fairly exotic bit of hardware at the time.

i also had an fsr max backbone (with the extruded tubes) in the late 90's that i believe were domestically made.

 

[Jeremy R]

We don't make nothing but trouble.

 

[Electric_City]

A couple of post below on the Demo 9 FB thing, the guy claims that the Demo 9's were made in the USA and all others were made in asia. And that's why the 9's are "more valuable". If S is already making frames with very similar asthetics in china/Taiwan, would they really go through so much effort to make one frame out of their entire catalog in the USA?

I get the outsourcing to Litespeed to make a frame that you described - ie- titanium frame by a, Ti frame manufacturer. But one of 3 demos made here?

 

[iRider]

i've got one of those carbon / ti epic ultimate frames - with a made in usa sticker. titanium lugs fabbed by merlin, frame glued together @ morgan hill. fairly exotic bit of hardware at the time.

i also had an fsr max backbone (with the extruded tubes) in the late 90's that i believe were domestically made.

Let's see it!

 

[boogenman]

. If S is already making frames with very similar asthetics in china/Taiwan, would they really go through so much effort to make one frame out of their entire catalog in the USA?

I believe Iron Horse did this for at least one year with the Sunday, although they were not actually making anything, just outsourcing. It was the for the made in USA premium? Better wleds?

 

[sunringlerider]

I have a 94 or 95 rockhopper and a 95 allez that both say made in the US.

 

[6thElement]

I have a 94 or 95 rockhopper and a 95 allez that both say made in the US.

Is that where they made the stickers?

 

[sunringlerider]

Is that where they made the stickers?

Ya not sure. They are cute stickers.
Even have a big merican flag

 

[Toshi]

Ya not sure. They are cute stickers.
Even have a big merican flag

DESIGNED IN CALIFORNIA

built in China

 

[Electric_City]

I just have a hard time understanding why they would supposedly build a road bike this year, a DH bike 4 years later, a rigid 7 years prior and the other 99% of their bikes are made in china.

Their catalog is pretty damn thick. What's the point in these random bikes being made here?

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

I just have a hard time understanding why they would supposedly build a road bike this year, a DH bike 4 years later, a rigid 7 years prior and the other 99% of their bikes are made in china.

Their catalog is pretty damn thick. What's the point in these random bikes being made here?

Specialized is a confusing company, they started by not making any products but just being a distributor for Euro road parts and tires in the US.

They didn't actually make/design anything themselves until the late 80's-> 90's.

Currently they are a powerhouse in terms of engineering and development, but also value profit way too much to ever make much of anything in the US. They basically "own" carbon factories in China, which is why they are one of the few companies that has had lots of product available during COVID. They don't have to wait in line with others for production.

The founder also has admitted to having ADD and taking shrooms regularly....which may have added to the confusion

 

[boogenman]

I have a 94 or 95 rockhopper and a 95 allez that both say made in the US.

I thought all the big names except Giant made their higher end bikes in the USA during the 90's? Maybe it was just GT and Trek?

 

[4xBoy]

Reminds me how so many people told me they had a yeti built schwin.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Get off my lawn.
Soecialized was a huge customer of Anodizing Inc in Portland(turner,ellsworth,titus, schwinn, yeti, marin, santacruz as well). All “m”-series frames from 2 to 5 were made there, as well as all the high end fs, bikes until industrial designers hydroformed america out of the FS bike business.

I never paid any attention to demo 9’s(goofy pieces of shit, imo), but it’s concievable a pilot batch got built in Portland.
After the Schwinn bankruptcy LOTS of capacity opened up on the production floor!
Circa 2003 Anodizing inc would have charged about $800 to build a one-off FS test mule out of existing tubes and customer-supplied machine parts.

Also, get off my lawn

 

[ianjenn]

On FB marketplace, FB vintage DH bike, What's my vintage bike worth, ebay, etc... I keep seeing people post that "this" Specialized was Made in the USA. A Demo 9 from 2005 is the latest. A 1999 Specialized DH bike with the Manitou DC fork on it and several others.

Did Specialized ever make a bike in the USA? To my knowledge they never did, but I'm up for being edjukated if I'm wrong.

The Palmer Replica DH frame up to 2001 was. It had the Made In USA sticker on it.

 

[daisycutter]

I have a 96 Specialized S Works bike I purchased from a SuperCo mail order. The frame was made in Colorado I believe. The were able to sell them direct because Specialized was going to a aluminum alloy that could be shaped and looked cooler. The bike ride is stiff as hell but not as bad a other bikes of the time because the tubes where thinner. The draw of metal matrix was an understandable one. By dispersing small percentages of aluminum oxide ceramic powder during the alloying process, the resultant material would end up stiffer than the otherwise-standard aluminum upon which the composite was based, all while adding essentially zero weight. In practice, this would lead to lighter frames since less material was needed to maintain the same stiffness. But from what I understand ceramic-reinforced metal matrix composites are notoriously hard on cutting tools and tubing is hard to shape.

 

[SuspectDevice]

you are reciting marketing disinformation:
durlacan embrittlement lead to thicker and thicker tube walls in subsequent m-series frames. Stuff has suboptimal elongation properties to make a light, strong thing that can last.
Horrible material to make bikes with. The factory tried to talk specialized out of M2.

 

[jackalope]

Specialized is a confusing company, they started by not making any products but just being a distributor for Euro road parts and tires in the US.

They didn't actually make/design anything themselves until the late 80's-> 90's.

Currently they are a powerhouse in terms of engineering and development, but also value profit way too much to ever make much of anything in the US. They basically "own" carbon factories in China, which is why they are one of the few companies that has had lots of product available during COVID. They don't have to wait in line with others for production.

The founder also has admitted to having ADD and taking shrooms regularly....which may have added to the confusion

All of which leads me to interesting/dumb thought - given the US could get into a real AF trade war (or an actual war) with China if/when they invade Taiwan, a random drunk cargo ship could make the Suez canal constipated for weeks or months, wet markets still exist which means a new camel virus will eventually come out, etc...why not call Matt at GG and just ask them how much for the magic thermoplastic recipe? Or if that's too much of a blow to Sinyard's ego, try to figure it out yourself and start bringing production back to the US over time. Not really for jingoistic purposes, but just as a long range business strategy. Figure they would have the resources from a scalability perspective, and the less labor intensive manufacturing process should help offset some of the obvious increases in labor costs (i.e. not many 12 year olds working at GG). Alloy frames are another matter of course, especially since all the tooling and fancy equipment is located in ROC, but it seems like they could bring carbon frames back with thermoplastic space magic.

But, then again...here's the obligatory FUCK SPECIALIZED*

*even tho @toodles is a traitor and rocks their gear...shit, I just realized I have one of their tires and its actually good.

 

[iRider]

Alloy frames are another matter of course, especially since all the tooling and fancy equipment is located in ROC, but it seems like they could bring carbon frames back with thermoplastic space magic.

Aren't the Speci alloy frames made in the Merida factory in Taichung in Taiwan?

 

[jackalope]

Aren't the Speci alloy frames made in the Merida factory in Taichung in Taiwan?

I think you're right, although that may be part of China in the not too distant future.

 

[Flo33]

Aren't the Speci alloy frames made in the Merida factory in Taichung in Taiwan?

Merida owns a half of Special'Ed, I can't remember if it's 49.9 or 50.1% but one of these numbers.

 

[jackalope]

Merida owns a half of Special'Ed, I can't remember if it's 49.9 or 50.1% but one of these numbers.

I seem to recall they owned 50.1%. So should we now start saying "fuck Merida"?

 

[Flo33]

Nah, fuck Specialized^2 is completely fine.

 

[slimshady]

Merida owns a half of Special'Ed, I can't remember if it's 49.9 or 50.1% but one of these numbers.

They increased their share count maybe 5-6 years ago? the amount acquired was not disclosed, but they surpassed 52% IIRC.

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

They increased their share count maybe 5-6 years ago? the amount acquired was not disclosed, but they surpassed 52% IIRC.

No, Specialized actually bought Merida out completely (or damn near) a while back. They may still be partners of sorts, but Merida has no where close to controlling interest in Speshy these days. If anything maybe the opposite...

Speshy has pretty much bought out and controls some of their former ROC carbon vendor factories since then. It was very important for Sinyard that no one else had control of his baby.

But Merida did save them from bankruptcy, I remember Sinyard saying that he was telling banks they would have to come and "take the fucking keys". This was after they tried to launch another "low cost" brand that was in CostCo, etc. I don't remember what it was called, but it damn near killed Speshy off.

To the point of bringing carbon production back to the US, they could for sure do it. The only thing stopping them are the insane margins they currently enjoy with production overseas. It would make you puke if you knew what the landed cost of those S-Works level frames that sell for $8-$15k are....

I was privy to that info at one point, the S-Works Epic frames circa 2010 had a cost of about $250 w/o shock.....that's the kind of profit that lets you build your own multi million dollar wind tunnel without batting an eye.

 

[jackalope]

No, Specialized actually bought Merida out completely (or damn near) a while back. They may still be partners of sorts, but Merida has no where close to controlling interest in Speshy these days. If anything maybe the opposite...

Speshy has pretty much bought out and controls some of their former ROC carbon vendor factories since then. It was very important for Sinyard that no one else had control of his baby.

But Merida did save them from bankruptcy, I remember Sinyard saying that he was telling banks they would have to come and "take the fucking keys". This was after they tried to launch another "low cost" brand that was in CostCo, etc. I don't remember what it was called, but it damn near killed Speshy off.

To the point of bringing carbon production back to the US, they could for sure do it. The only thing stopping them are the insane margins they currently enjoy with production overseas. It would make you puke if you knew what the landed cost of those S-Works level frames that sell for $8-$15k are....

I was privy to that info at one point, the S-Works Epic frames circa 2010 had a cost of about $250 w/o shock.....that's the kind of profit that lets you build your own multi million dollar wind tunnel without batting an eye.

Good insight - thanks. I still wonder what happens if/when the US gets super sideways with the ROC and they just decide the "State" now owns your slave shops. And I do believe you about the profit margins - but again, if GG is selling a carbon frame for ~$3,100, it seems like Spesh could reduce their own costs quite a bit given their economy of scale advantages (assuming they start using a similar manufacturing process).

In the end, I have no love loss for Spesh, Sinyard or overpriced S-Works models, but I remain moderately surprised they don't think their current arrangement with the ROC won't change (and maybe change suddenly) at some point in the future.

 

[canadmos]

It would make you puke if you knew what the landed cost of those S-Works level frames that sell for $8-$15k are....

I worked at Fox Head way back when and saw the costs of their carbon moto helmets and had that same wtf feeling. Not sure if I was supposed to, but whatever. Based on that, I'm guessing a few hundred pesos.

 

[sunringlerider]

finally remembered to take a picture. This is on the Allez.

 

[Westy]

Good insight - thanks. I still wonder what happens if/when the US gets super sideways with the ROC and they just decide the "State" now owns your slave shops. And I do believe you about the profit margins - but again, if GG is selling a carbon frame for ~$3,100, it seems like Spesh could reduce their own costs quite a bit given their economy of scale advantages (assuming they start using a similar manufacturing process).

In the end, I have no love loss for Spesh, Sinyard or overpriced S-Works models, but I remain moderately surprised they don't think their current arrangement with the ROC won't change (and maybe change suddenly) at some point in the future.

You also have to realize that GG uses thermoplastic not an epoxy binder. This has the advantage of having much shorter curing/cooking times which allows you to have fewer molds for the same throughput. Also being able to use the same molds for multiple models. Molds are really really expensive. Their design and manufacturing methodology allows for much lower fixed costs for manufacturing.

 

[jackalope]

You also have to realize that GG uses thermoplastic not an epoxy binder. This has the advantage of having much shorter curing/cooking times which allows you to have fewer molds for the same throughput. Also being able to use the same molds for multiple models. Molds are really really expensive. Their design and manufacturing methodology allows for much lower fixed costs for manufacturing.

Absolutely- which is why Spez should just offer to buy the magic recipe (for jacuzzi jet money) and do it themselves. To me, one of the main benefits is cutting out the labor of laying sheets of plastic like they're currently doing in the ROC (albeit costing 12 year olds their "jobs"). Hopefully that would help offset the cost of on-shoring the manufacturing.

But again, I give no fucks about Spez and if I had Bezos money, I'd make GG bigger than Ford. Id also have a lot of nice bikes (and maybe even a limited edition Revved butt plug for those days I've been over-served with pinto beans).

 

[jstuhlman]

@jackalope you keep saying 12yos. so when can i send my 12yo off to coloRADo to "apprentice" with @mtg ???

 

[boogenman]

You also have to realize that GG uses thermoplastic not an epoxy binder.

So you're telling me that my bike is plastic?

 

[ianjenn]

@jackalope you keep saying 12yos. so when can i send my 12yo off to coloRADo to "apprentice" with @mtg ???

He was being generous and should have written 8-year-olds......

 

[SuspectDevice]

the working conditions “jokes” are so fucking xenophobic, y’all.
Workers in Taiwan and China have much, much better pay and compensation, in real terms, than the 15 or so americans who make bike frames for a living .

 

[jackalope]

the working conditions “jokes” are so fucking xenophobic, y’all.
Workers in Taiwan and China have much, much better pay and compensation, in real terms, than the 15 or so americans who make bike frames for a living .

Agreed! China also has a sterling record when it comes to industrial environmental controls, safe work place environments and labor laws. Its basically Shangri La on earth.

 

[SuspectDevice]

Agreed! China also has a sterling record when it comes to industrial environmental controls, safe work place environments and labor laws. Its basically Shangri La on earth.

Dude, have you ever lived in America?
Taiwan, where most of the ultra-trick good shit is made, is a hell of a lot cleaner, safer and more equitable, with better educational and health outcomes and a higher degree of social mobility than almost any place in the United States.
Not to mention they have bicycle culture and bicycle infrastructure that we can only dream about.

I'm all about domestic manufacturing, but let's be real, "work" in America is a fucking joke/wide awake nightmare.

 

[SuspectDevice]

and before I quote myself:

This is the Ridemonkey DH forurm. Steber and FTW are probably both proof positive that designing and welding WC DH bikes works maybe, better, as one man with some plans in his hand and decades worth of burns and blisters than some kind of um... corporation. Factory Mindset, Factory Result.

Lovely knowing that both Trek and Specialized have moved away from molded DH bikes... that, to me, means DH is going in the right direction right now...