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N8's view of New Orleans

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by sanjuro, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    I read this, and I wanted to start your own thread.

    New Orleans is no welfare paradise. Crime and the abject poverty typical of the south makes being poor in New Orleans a short and miserable existence. This is one reason why many have left the city over the last 20 years.

    Frankly, I have no idea what would improve New Orleans. I am hoping a fresh start might do something.
     

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  2. laura

    laura DH_Laura

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    I'd like to comment on n8's point that welfare makes a poverty tolerable with no motivation to leave. I've done a lot of research on welfare policy in the south. Welfare is a trap, you are right. But its not that there is no motivation to leave (in most cases) its that getting off welfare would mean losing out on benefits that one would never be able to afford working jobs that most of the poor hold.

    I work with 3 women on welfare. If they work more than 30 hours a week, they lose their benefits. This means houssing subsidies, health care for their children, food subsidies, and child care subsidies. However, in order to make enough money to cover these thing on their own, they would have to work two jobs, and find someone else to help them out as well. Even then, they'd be pushing it to even survive, their children would be alone constantly, and they would still be living in poverty.

    Here in lies the trap. Why do we take away benefits from people who are more than willing to work more, but can't afford to do so because of losing benefits?

    Childcare can cost upwards of 200 dollars a week. Let's don't even talk about health care and dental. Food stamps are a 200-400 (avg) dollar a month relief, and housing subsidies can run from 100-500 dollars a month.


    A single mother working in a deli would never be able to make up for losing these benefits even working a second job.

    Welfare is a mess. The paper work is a cluster ****. The employees at the DHS are over loaded and miserable, and barely making enough money to survive themselves. This leads to more people cheating the system and taking resources from people who realy need it.

    Welfare is a bribe. If we give you this will you shut up? No we won't help you get on your feet, No we won't help you get out of poverty. We'll give you enough so that you can squeak by, then we'll stick you in the ghetto so nobody notices.

    There will always be lazy, no good, people looking for a handout. One of the girls I work with is like this. But there are so many more that just want to get out of the ghetto, get a real job, and support their families. give their children what their parents couldn't give them. Welfare makes this close to impossible.

    yes we have implemented strategies such as head start for children with parents on welfare so that they can get an early start in school, a leg up. however, once they get into school, they are stuck in the inner city programs with the least amount of funding and worst teachers (generally). I did research at one of our most notorious inner city schools last semester and was appalled at what I found (but thats a different topic altogether).

    There are also welfare to work programs, as well as subsidies for people willing to go to school. The resources for these programs are stretched thin, and while they seem to be working, many people don't know about them (see problems with DHS personel).

    My point, after this long rambling post, is that nothing is as simple as it seems. Poverty is a deep, and complex problem that effects everyone in this country negatively. We are never going to find any real solutions to these probems if we can't speak about them openly and candidly without spewing boring rhetoric back and forth and arguing over whose fault it is.

    I'm headed back to the lounge.
     
  3. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    i agree with a lot of what you say but it does beg one signficant question...

    if these women are soo desperately poor why do they have one kid much less more than one.

    having a kid is NOT a right if it means you also need the gvt to step in and help you raise them.
     
  4. narlus

    narlus Eastcoast Softcore
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    that's a good question w/ no good answers. forced sterilization doesn't seem to be supported by our constitution or bill of rights.
     
  5. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    forced sterilization is draconian and i wont lie ive wondered about that myself, however if it were made lock step, no quesitons asked, have ANOTHER KID while you're on welfare and the benefits are GONE, no quarter given i bet they might actually be a tad more responsible...
     
  6. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    I kind of agree with you about that RTF, but I think there are other more positive reforms that could be made to welfare, with no expense to the taxpayer that would have a far greater effect and help people get off welfare. The 30 hour a week rule is an obvious one. Without actually increasing the amount of welfare you gave, removing this cap of maximum hours would make a lot of difference to a lot of people.

    These things have to be changed starting small from the bottom. Leaping in and making new, as you put it 'draconian' rules should never be a first step in something like this.
     
  7. laura

    laura DH_Laura

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    These are the questions that I was talking about. There is certainly no easy answer when it comes to curbing someone's reproduction. Especially with this country's stance on abortion and sex education. (Being able to teach only abstinence in public school sex ed is ridiculous. kids are having sex and babies, we need to acknowledge it and move towards more effective teaching and prevention methods.)

    As well, there some very strong cultural issues that go along with having children. Many people see having many children as a blessing. They are poor, their parents were poor and raised them just fine, they will always be poor, and having kids enriches their lives. ( I also think you might be surprised to find out how many women on welfare aren't running around with 7 children, and a huge govn. subsidy check.)

    There are also cultural stigmas against using a concom with your babies daddy. One of the girls that i work with knows that her boyfriend sleeps around on her, but she won't use a condom with him because he is her man. Both of these ideas are very foriegn to me. I'm not poor, but I don't want kids because of the financial strain they could put on me. And if TN was sleeping around on me using a condom wouldn't be an issue because his ass would be out the door.

    What really drives me crazy is that everyone is so down on the mothers, and the fathers get out of all responsibility. Its the mothers that shouldn't be having so many kids. But when it comes to abortion the mothers shouldn't have the right to choose. Its the mothers that need to get a job, but also need to be around for their kids so they stay out of trouble. Where are most of the men in thiis argument. Why isn't child support more strictly enforced? More questions with difficult answers.






    note*
    Let me also note that obviously these characteristics aren't true for everyone. And I am not claiming to know anything about the rest of the country (I'm not really claiming to know much of anything). These are just running themes and ideas that we found in our research of working (I know very little about non-working women)women on welfare in the midsouth.
     
  8. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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  9. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Huh...

     
  10. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    There is a saying about New Orleans:

    "If you can't make it here, you better not leave".

    My friends, a smart and qualified bunch of people, are struggling outside New Orleans. They find other places a tad too dull for their tastes. I bet many evacutees feel the same way and will return.
     
  11. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    I believe I agree.

    What's your stance on abortion?
     
  12. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    You're treading on dangerous ground here. In a nutshell you seem to be suggesting the poor shouldn't have the right to breed. Getting dangerously close to eugenics there I feel. I'd like to see figures comparing births to mothers from different income groups though.
     
  13. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Did nobody get that? :mad:
     
  14. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    Been posted in the Lounge already mate.
     
  15. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Bugger.
     
  16. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    if they can't afford the child and the gvt has to pay for it...FVCK NO!

    tell me why myself, my neighbor, my boss, my coworker should foot the tab for someone else's irrepsonsibility if they can't afford it themselves?

    where exactly in the constitution is THAT right spelled out?

    if they can't put the bread on the table, keep their legs closed...its pretty simple actually
     
  17. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    As long as you're cool with that. Who's next? Fat people, ugly people, people with disabilities, black people. Seems to me someone tried that once. :think:
     
  18. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    oh dear god you have got to be kidding me!

    if they are black, ugly, and or fat as long as they can afford it i could give a flying fvck less, however, if they are poor why on earth should OTHER people pay for their lack of responsibility???

    can you give me a rational, constituionally based, reason for that?
     
  19. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    So if someone has five kids and a good job but loses that job through no fault of their own should we kill the kids? Maybe just forcibly remove them and give to some rich dude who likes kids (a certain Mr Jackson springs to mind).
     
  20. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    Look you can't stop people from having babies. Those children must have access to decent levels of health care, education and housing. Penalising the child for what their parents have or haven't done is just idiotic. What you can do though is give low-income earners access to proper family planning. If given that access then birth-rates can be reduced. Jumping up and down about poor people breeding too much is foolish.
     
  21. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    U.S. Supreme Court, Buck Vs Bell 1927, UPHELD the right of the State of Virginia to force sterilizations.


    This isn't intended to support anyone's argument, just providing factual information.
     
  22. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    Unfortunately family planning doesn't agree with the regressive's agenda, which is to punish people. If you talk about birth control and family planning, and provide borth control, the number of abortions would go down and that would undermind the entire right wing, as well as force them to admit that people have sex {gasp}.
     
  23. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    no, its the ones that have several children WHILE ON WELFARE that is the problem

    these people are adults, they have to be held to some level of responsibility. becaue they are too (ignorant/lazy/etc, etc) to use birth control why should the REST of the responsible population shoulder the burden?

    valve bouncer,

    its not jumping up and down...its decades of welfar abuse that isnt getting better. when there are GENERATIONS of families raised on welfare where do you draw the line?

    and this ISNT about race as i know there are just as many if not more white breads than blacks sticking their hand out.

    im just tired of paying in excess of 1/3 of my income so some ignorant, lazy fvck can stick their hand out and say, "take care of me uncle sam, you owe ME because im poor"
     
  24. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    OK, but how are you gonna tell the difference regarding legislation? You will always have a degree of abuse of the system, taking care of the weak and poor requires you to accept that. The answer is not to remove welfare but to structure it in a better way. If the jobs existed to pay the unskilled what they need you can direct them in that direction (but that will also require government spending) and any blocks (is loss of overall income due to working and losing benefits) must be engineered out of the system.

    BTW - how much of your tax goes to welfare for these lazy people you despise versus, say, 'defence' spending?
     
  25. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Is it? Several? Do you have any stats to show how often this happens? Or are you making an assumption?

    1) Not everyone is on welfare because they are 'lazy'. Many are in that situation through loss of jobs, illness, poor circumstance. 2) Society should help bear the burden because it's in the interest of the whole of society not to have several hundred thousand people running around every major city who are so poor they are forced into crime just to get by. Do you really want vast areas of your major cities to look like Rio?

    Again, do you have any statisitics to bear this out? Assuming you are correct, are you saying that generation after generation of these people are 'too lazy' to get out of poverty? Is it not actually the case that despite America's reputation as the land of opportunity, recent studies have shown that it is actually harder to get out of poverty in America than most of places in the first world? Welfare isn't the only problem, your tax structure and economic policies are also, if not considerably more at fault.
    1) That is a very childish view of the situation.
    2) Actually the biggest lump of public spending goes to looking after people who have smoking related illness. Shortly behing that is 'defence' spending. If you could solve those issues, your tax could be reduced considerably. Is welfare really the problem when it's stopping your society decend into chaos?
     
  26. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    Do you mean the beautiful beaches, or the slums where off duty cops kill begging orphans for pocket money from shopkeepers?
     
  27. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    :D The beaches!
     
  28. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    I have a stock response for that, "what are you going to do with your saved money, build a bigger wall around your house?"

    I lived 3 blocks away from the Magnolia projects in New Orleans (and I continued the trend by living in downtown Hartford and now a mile away from Hunter's Point). I did not enjoy the property crime, like the muggings or the car break-ins. But it was obvious living in squalor is not a welfare picnic because it was much worse 3 blocks away.

    I do not think our current system is working, but I also believe the roots for the problem are ancient and still not corrected.

    The people living in poverty still need a economic hand, but still more needs to be done to get them out of poverty, which will require even more money.

    I might not have all the answers, but I don't whine like a KKK member about it.
     
  29. Andyman_1970

    Andyman_1970 Turbo Monkey

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    So RTF, what are you personally going to do to help change the situation. And I don't mean esoteric crap like "vote for a XYZ canidate" I mean, are you willing to:

    Volunteer to help these people get a better job (resume writing, budget help, etc)?

    To mentor some of those boys from those poor neighborhoods so they don't turn out like their previous generations?

    If they don't have a car or can't take the bus, are you willing to drive them to their job or Dr's appointment?

    Teach a class on sex education so their no longer as you say "ignorant"?

    Volunteer to baby sit (for free) a single mom's kids while she works?

    If not then I classify your various rants on the subject with the uber rich uber left Hollywood types who bemoan various environmental issues (for example) but drive huge gas guzzeling SUV's and waste all sorts of energy on their huge extravagant cribs.

    Unless you're willing to jump in the trenches and actually help change the situation you're rantings amount to a bunch of hot air.
     
  30. Andyman_1970

    Andyman_1970 Turbo Monkey

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    Amen sista.................excellent post............ :thumb:
     
  31. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    actually i do volunteer for SOL's at an 'underprivileged' school through a community outreach program at work...
     
  32. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Underprivileged in quotes, huh?

    Obviously very sympathetic. Do you call them "lazy ignorant fvcks" to their faces, or do you just wear your volunteering as a badge that gives you an excuse to put them down in online discussions?
     
  33. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    should i say its dirt poor, ghetto, predominantly black? is that better?

    should i no longer volunteer because you don't approve of my views?
     
  34. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    You did call them 'lazy ignorant fvcks'. You tell us.
     
  35. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    No no, please continue to volunteer. It needs to be done, and if I had never seen you write an opinion in this forum, I would certainly be thanking you.

    But based on what you've been writing, it seems you truly despise the very people with whom and for whom you're working. I'm having a hard time reconciling that.

    edit: and to be clear, there are plenty of views I don't AGREE with, but that is very different than not APPROVING of them. Unless we're talking truly extreme ("God hates fags," etc.), it's not my place or my responsibility to approve or disapprove of your opinions.
     
  36. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    Ok lib's, now is your chance to actaully come up with a SOLUTION instead of whining about the status quo while doing nothing to change it....
     
  37. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Solution to what?

    Edit: Also, at this point I WISH we were stuck with the status quo. That's what conservative government is SUPPOSED to give us. Instead we got wildly aggressive policies for changing the status quo in the following arenas:
    - foreign policy
    - domestic economic policy (taxes and interest rates specifically)
    - federal emergency response
    - environmental policy
    - presidential precedent (transparency of operations, vacation time, press release and public appearance formats, 2nd term inauguration ceremonies)
    - balance of power (use of executive powers, supreme court jurisdiction)

    What is at all conservative about that?
     
  38. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    There has to be progressive thought on the subject, not regressive.

    You can't just punish people because they are on welfare, you have to provide them with a way out. Here's a proposal that's good for business and people.

    Have a government program (O.K. I just lost N8's support) that subsidises medical and child care, and WIC on a sliding fee scale based on income.

    When someone goes to transition off welfare they don't instantly loose all their benefits, and are unable make ends meet, ending up back on welfare. Business gets workers willing to take lower end jobs, that no one currently wants, because they can afford childcare and health care. People who want off welfare are given a fighting chance to do so.

    While someone is on the program they can earn "training credits" they can later use to take vocational or educational courses, further helping them to get off welfare.

    The program would almost pay for it's self in the reduced cost of full welfare, reduced hospital losses due to uninsured patients. Add to that the increased income tax revenue from people who actually earn a living wage. Businesses get entry level workers, there are fewer low level jobs to attract illegal immigration, and society becomes as a whole more productive, and you get rid of the welfare culture.
     
  39. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    good post reactor, but because it makes sense washington couldn't possibly implement it
     
  40. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    fair enough...that was a measured response.

    no i've got no problem with the kids they are too young to know any better

    but ive got lots of heartache with the parents, you can tell these kids, most of them anyways, get little to no attention at home regarding their academics