[Loki87]

So, i´ve bought a new Devinci Wilson recently and have ridden it 3 times now.
I´ve had the RS Vivid damper custom tuned and in the process they exchanged the damper shaft for their own, new one. Probably because they implement some topout damper, idk anything about the technical details.
The damper was brand new.
Here´s my problem.
Please bear with me, it´s been a rather long odysee so far...
I´ve ridden the bike with the stock Vivid around the block a few times and didn´t notice anything weird.
After the second ride on the newly done damper i noticed oil leaking through the seal.
I wiped it off, but it continued leaking from only giving the bike a few pumps on the saddle.
So i sent it back to service and got it back...still leaking from pushing the saddle a few times.
Now i thought maybe it was the new shaft being out of measurement or something, so i called them and they had me send it back again to take another look.
After a while i got a call and was told that they can´t get the damper to seal and they don´t know why. They´ve checked the shaft, tried other shafts, nothing worked.
Apparently the sealhead bushing had been mangled badly though, so they suspect there had been something wrong there and maybe some lateral play may have caused this.
Now the Wilson does have this stupid wishbone damper yoke thingy, but here´s the thing. There´s no play in the linkage as far as i can tell. The shock bolt holding the eyelet was definitely done up proper tight, which i know because the damn thing was seized after the intital two rides and it was a pain to get it out. Something that apparently happens rather often with the Wilsons shock extension and that bolt.
So i highly doubt there has been any excessive force on the damper. Also those rides were just some mellow flow trails if that counts for anything.
After getting the shock back from the first service, i had it installed with a little less torque in order for the bolt not to seize again. Sadly on the last run the bolt came loose a little bit. After that it had developed a clunking topout noise, which could also be felt through the frame as vibration, once i retightened the bolt.
So i could definitely see how this may have actually damaged the sealhead bushing, however it doesn´t explain the earlier oil loss and the fact the newly done shock felt a little rough through the stroke from the get go, making slight scratching noises, which i attributed to maybe the new shaft being not as smooth as the original one even though it felt normal. I didn´t think too much about it at the time though, as it still felt really good while riding.
Now this would all be no big deal if RS wasn´t a piece of shit company which apparently stopped selling the sealhead assembly.
So right now the service center wants to try out a few more things next week, including the sealhead from a Kage they have lying around and getting it on their new dyno to maybe determine where the pressure is lost or something like that.
If that doesn´t work, im pretty much out 600€ for a piece of scrap metal i can toss in the bin after three rides or buy a new shock for one single spare part (only to maybe repeat the whole disaster if the problem isn´t found).

Now i´d really like to hear any of your thoughts on the whole thing.
Is it necessary to replace the whole sealhead? Wouldn´t it be possible to just change the bushing? If the bushing was mangled, would that explain the oil leakage?
Is there any possibility they fucked something up internally which led to all this as the initial scratchy stroke would suggest?
Was it just bad luck and/or the frame eating the shock?
I´m really bummed out right now, as i have to blindly trust the service center on this matter and they already let me know they pretty much don´t see themselves at fault, though they are rather cooperative up to this point.
So right now i honestly don´t know how to proceed really and would appreciate any input to maybe make a little sense of all this.
If i have to pay for spares, fine. I´m just not sure it´s worth it at this point if the whole thing just repeats itself again.

And yes, damper extensions suck, i know.
Bike feels awesome though.

 

[kidwoo]

You're not out the shock, get them to put a stock rod back in.

Also..........who did the work?

 

[Jm_]

If it was misaligned, it would be wearing a spot/streak on the shaft, no? I had a Romic catastrophically fail because the damper itself was whacked, causing drag from the piston glide ring or some BS, which caused it to break into 3 parts, they just seemed to make up shit when you send the shock in for failing, each time saying "we've never seen that before!".

My worst-shocks-ever list includes the Romic, Curnut and 5th Element.

 

[madpharma]

could be that the wishbone yoke doesnt work freely, sending lateral forces to the shock, much like the old demo8 (those frames used to break ccdbs shafts.)

 

[Loki87]

You're not out the shock, get them to put a stock rod back in.

Also..........who did the work?

That was one of my next steps i´d have them do.
Hopefully they are cooperative though, as of course they are absolutely certain it´s not their components fault and putting in the old shaft might actually proof that...
They claim to have tried a couple of their own shafts though.
So you would definitely suspect the shaft to be at fault here first?
Or do you think it´s possible for the sealhead to be somehow slightly misaligned or something which isn´t noticeable to the eye?
Given that they of course don´t want to rebuild the thing 10 times without charging me for each rebuild, i´d just like to know what i should ask them to do next. Get a new sealhead and hope that fixes it, with the added benefit of being able to stick it to them if that´s not working either, or just have the shock rebuilt with the old shaft and hope it works, but have wasted the money on the whole custom stuff.

If it was misaligned, it would be wearing a spot/streak on the shaft, no? ...because the damper itself was whacked, causing drag from the piston glide ring or some BS...

Wouldn´t it wear the bushing first though? I guess the shaft should be pretty tough.
And in the second case, i think it wouldn´t really make sense for it to still leak oil after a full rebuild, at least initially. The thing started loosing oil immediately though, just by sitting on the bike in my living room.

could be that the wishbone yoke doesnt work freely, sending lateral forces to the shock, much like the old demo8 (those frames used to break ccdbs shafts.)

I´ll check for that, but the frame is brand new, so i doubt there´s too much resistance really.

Maybe i should just get a beater shock to run for a few days, have them delay the work on my shock and see if the other shock develops similar problems?

 

[kidwoo]

Here's an unfortunate fact: sometimes rockshox just has crappy seals

You already mentioned all the variables (funky dogbone link etc) but the truth is, you had a shock that didn't leak and then you paid someone to work on it, now you have a shock that leaks. Incidentally I had something similar happen with a vivid a few years ago. I paid dirt labs to rebuild it and change a shim or two. I got like two rides on it then due to weather hung up the bike for a few weeks. When I went to grab it, there was oil leaking all over the place. When I called them they literally just said "send it back we'll get it taken care of". So I did.

Then I got charged for a full rebuild all over again, like 300 bucks. I called, I bitched, but they still had my money. Guess who will never be a customer of dirtlabs again? It's not that I don't doubt that there's a shitty stock part they used, it's how they dealt with it. Like with you, I sent them a functional shock, and got back one that wasn't.

So be smarter than me. Act like a much bigger bitch up front. And make those motherfuckers send you a shock that works with your bike. Because that's what you fucking paid them to do. Stock shaft, small shaft.....doesn't matter. You paid them and they sent you a fucked up part.


If it were me, I'd just get them to return to to stock bits. Fewer potential questions.

 

[tacubaya]

I'd suggest swapping the shock for something else... the Vivid tends to develop a lot of problems all which have expensive, non permanent, solutions. We see damaged shafts, sealhead bushings and worn reservoirs all the time.

I'd also stay away from the DHX2.

 

[kidwoo]

IE: spend more money


What's a good baseline traditional rear damper these days that can handle some fiddling and rebuilding that doesn't fall apart? RS uses cheap parts and have gotten more complicated to rebuild......kind of the same thing with fox, and those only marginally work with low overall leverage frames.

DVO, MRP, Xfusion etc making anything decent?

 

[TrumbullHucker]

I´ve ridden the bike with the stock Vivid around the block a few times and didn´t notice anything weird.
After the second ride on the newly done damper i noticed oil leaking through the seal.
I wiped it off, but it continued leaking from only giving the bike a few pumps on the saddle.
So i sent it back to service and got it back...still leaking from pushing the saddle a few times.

Now this would all be no big deal if RS wasn´t a piece of shit company which apparently stopped selling the sealhead assembly.

So right now the service center wants to try out a few more things next week, including the sealhead from a Kage they have lying around and getting it on their new dyno to maybe determine where the pressure is lost or something like that.
If that doesn´t work, im pretty much out 600€ for a piece of scrap metal i can toss in the bin after three rides or buy a new shock for one single spare part (only to maybe repeat the whole disaster if the problem isn´t found).

Now i´d really like to hear any of your thoughts on the whole thing.

Sounds like a horror story, OP. Truly sucks

I had a Vivid R2C Coil (I'm assuming that's what you have) for years and was absolutely flawless.
Sounds like your tuner does not know how to custom tune the shock for your bike and keeps blowing it up.

And I agree, It is shitty that RS does not sell Sealhead. Do they offer rebuild kits?

 

[jonKranked]

IE: spend more money


What's a good baseline traditional rear damper these days that can handle some fiddling and rebuilding that doesn't fall apart? RS uses cheap parts and have gotten more complicated to rebuild......kind of the same thing with fox, and those only marginally work with low overall leverage frames.

DVO, MRP, Xfusion etc making anything decent?

bypass all this fuckery and buy an 11-6?

 

[Loki87]

Sounds like a horror story, OP. Truly sucks

I had a Vivid R2C Coil (I'm assuming that's what you have) for years and was absolutely flawless.
Sounds like your tuner does not know how to custom tune the shock for your bike and keeps blowing it up.

And I agree, It is shitty that RS does not sell Sealhead. Do they offer rebuild kits?

Yeah, i was getting stuff dialed during winter with the goal to start riding as soon as the first lifts opened up. Now i´m 1 1/2 months over that deadline and the bike is still hanging in the workstand...
The whole bike seems cursed. First the frame took 4 weeks to deliver as they had sent it to another country and a non existant address which the parcel service refused to change. After that i had the shock sent in and it took 8 weeks for parts to arrive. After that the parcel service kinda lost the package and it took another 2 weeks to get it back to the service center and then back to me.
Then the whole oil leakage followed.
At this point i hope the bike isn´t trying to kill me next time i´m on the track
The service center and tuner generally have a very good reputation and the other stuff i´ve tried from them is well made and works great. They do something like the Avalanche cartridge for the boxxer, very low maintenance, semi open bath and works like a dream on a friends bike.
Never heard any complaints about faulty parts from them either.
The fact that the bushing apparently was sratched suggests there may have been something putting too much stress on the shock, so i´m hesitant to blame everything on them at this point.
They offer rebuild kits and offered the sealhead in the past. They just don´t have any left for a 2017 shock...
Kinda pathetic for such a huge company.

I now have the damper back and apparently they fixed it. They say they tested it and they got it to not leak with another set of bushings and seals. Sent me the Dyno results with it, even though i can´t really get anything out of them.
Didn´t charge me anything extra, so that´s a plus.
We´ll see how it goes.
I´ve ordered new bearings for the frame and will replace the needle bearing ones in the wishbone just to be sure there´s no problem there before putting the shock back on.

IE: spend more money


What's a good baseline traditional rear damper these days that can handle some fiddling and rebuilding that doesn't fall apart? RS uses cheap parts and have gotten more complicated to rebuild......kind of the same thing with fox, and those only marginally work with low overall leverage frames.

DVO, MRP, Xfusion etc making anything decent?

That´s the real problem. Stuff keeps getting worse and worse.
I was about to pull the trigger on the DVO as it seems like a good enough base to work with, but as i have my shock back now, i´ll wait and see how it goes.
My biggest problem is the fact that the stupid wishbone is such a ridiculous construction. It basically only fits the Vivid without removing quite a bit of material. Fox and many others seem out of the question without some serious dremel work. That´s why i decided to stick with the Vivid and some upgrades.

 

[kidwoo]

bypass all this fuckery and buy an 11-6?

Good shocks for sure but.............

Weight
Price
An unnecessary 2nd damper circuit of fuckery

 

[dovbush66]

Xfusion Vector HLR coil's supposed to be good - I had it on the monkey approved list. Got an rc4 instead but I heard good things from skulking the archives.

The fox van rc and the new marzocchi shock look like the old dhx-5 so they might be worth buying as a tuning platform, especially if they fixed the wear issue on the piggyback piston

sucks to hear you're having so much issues OP. Still considering a wilson as my next frame but between the compatibility issues and shit like the hardware seizing it's starting to be a turn off.. Hopefully it all works out for you man.

 

[kidwoo]

The fox van rc

derp: I just typed up a response regarding an old vanilla RC


I forgot about those. Good call.

 

[toodles]

derp: I just typed up a response regarding an old vanilla RC


I forgot about those. Good call.

Isn't the new Marz shock basically just a Fox Van RC?

 

[Loki87]

Xfusion Vector HLR coil's supposed to be good - I had it on the monkey approved list. Got an rc4 instead but I heard good things from skulking the archives.

The fox van rc and the new marzocchi shock look like the old dhx-5 so they might be worth buying as a tuning platform, especially if they fixed the wear issue on the piggyback piston

sucks to hear you're having so much issues OP. Still considering a wilson as my next frame but between the compatibility issues and shit like the hardware seizing it's starting to be a turn off.. Hopefully it all works out for you man.

Yeah, the whole hardware fuckery is really annoying.
People have been dremeling the stuff though. It seems to not be too big a deal, it´s more of a commitment issue whether you´re comfortable with dremeling off some material from your new shock or the wishbone link.
That said, the bike is really amazing, as long as you´re within size limits as it runs rather small.
For me it´s the perfect park allrounder with a heavy bias towards going fast. It corners effortlessly, hugs the ground, uses travel very efficiently and sprints better than some enduro bikes. It´s not the best for jumps though.

 

[kidwoo]

Isn't the new Marz shock basically just a Fox Van RC?

Yes

And available in all those convenient metric sizes that reduced the number of standard sizes.

 

[mykel]

IE: spend more money


What's a good baseline traditional rear damper these days that can handle some fiddling and rebuilding that doesn't fall apart? RS uses cheap parts and have gotten more complicated to rebuild......kind of the same thing with fox, and those only marginally work with low overall leverage frames.

DVO, MRP, Xfusion etc making anything decent?

I asked Craig at Avalanche what he would recommend I use as a base for his mods as I was not tied into any specific shock when I bought the frame. Answer was either the RS SuperDeluxe RCT Coil or the new Foxzocchi VanRC or whatever they are calling it now. Nothing fancy and no re-inventing the wheel in either.

I know his answer was limited to what makes parts for and will work on - but for what it's worth...

 

[kidwoo]

He definitely has a point. I was looking at some of the super deluxe models for the same reason.

Ohlins, cane creek, fox, RS vivid.....are those all the same design now? Twin tube cyclical flow? Not that that's bad, it's the spring loaded poppet shit that's annoying with the fox stuff. I'm not sure if the others use the same system. Anybody know? Edit: yep, ohlins does


MRP hazzard looks like it might have some potential as well but I couldn't find any internal pics. The poppet stuff needs to go.

 

[troy]

MRP hazzard looks like it might have some potential as well but I couldn't find any internal pics. The poppet stuff needs to go.

Isn't it the same as Elka stage 5 with lockout added?

Hi/lo comp. assembly from an Elka:

 

[kidwoo]

Kinda looks like it eh?

 

[jonKranked]

that's a name i haven't heard in a while

 

[mykel]

Is it as loud as an Elka? Damn I could hear that thing on my buddy's bike above my Hopes and his Hadleys.

As for poppet valve, CCDB/Ohlins and Fox X2 live in this swamp.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

I'd also stay away from the DHX2

Because of the shaft pitting issues?

 

[Udi]

For what it's worth, the linkage doesn't need to have play to apply excessive lateral loads to the shock. Service centers generally hate the various clevis / eyelet-extension devices as they are pretty good at frying bushings and other internal surfaces. It can be difficult to replace the bushing alone, and sometimes there's other wear/damage to consider.

With that said, obviously some shocks are more susceptible to problems as a result of this too, definitely avoid the X2 and CCDB as replacements. You already know my recommendation. Hopefully you find a solution or if you're lucky the shock just lasts this time.

That´s the real problem. Stuff keeps getting worse and worse.

@toodles
Whose words are these?
The RM Euros full of sense as usual...

 

[kidwoo]

@toodles
Eurotrash

 

[buckoW]

Anybody tried an Ohlins coil shock? I think they feel pretty sweet. Definitely not the same feel as the CC and X2.

 

[djjohnr]

Anybody tried an Ohlins coil shock? I think they feel pretty sweet. Definitely not the same feel as the CC and X2.

I had a TTX 22 a few years ago, it rode pretty damn good.

 

[kidwoo]

Anybody tried an Ohlins coil shock? I think they feel pretty sweet. Definitely not the same feel as the CC and X2.

they use the same circuit bypass system as the others?

I'm not opposed to twin tube dampers, it's just that at least with the fox, you're limited by ports and thresholds. Vorsprung steve put a solid spacer in the rebound circuit of a dhx2 I've got, trying to max out the HS rebound and it still kind of sucked. Without a completely new poppet system, I'm not sure what else can be done. You can always move or change shims on a piston head at least........ Maybe ohlins got it right?

What do you think of the dhx2 performance elite things that only had the LS adjustments? Ive never ridden one. Threshold/bypass system has to be simpler right?

 

[Happymtb.fr]

they use the same circuit bypass system as the others?

If I recall correctly, the Öhlins ttx22 has the same rebound circuit as a monotube shock. Only the compression is TwinTube™

 

[kidwoo]

If I recall correctly, the Öhlins ttx22 has the same rebound circuit as a monotube shock. Only the compression is TwinTube™

Now we're talkin. They make any without gold? I'm a cheesy american but come on.....that's a little much.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

I am a frayed knot

 

[kidwoo]

You're in sweden. Go slap those fools upside the head for me. Tell them their shocks look like trump family dildos.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

I can't agree more with you, sadly the color seems to be deeply embedded in the corporate culture...
Gold ano and yellow springs

 

[Electric_City]

So, i´ve bought a new Devinci Wilson recently and have ridden it 3 times now.
I´ve had the RS Vivid damper custom tuned and in the process they exchanged the damper shaft for their own, new one. Probably because they implement some topout damper, idk anything about the technical details.
The damper was brand new.
Here´s my problem.
Please bear with me, it´s been a rather long odysee so far...
I´ve ridden the bike with the stock Vivid around the block a few times and didn´t notice anything weird.
After the second ride on the newly done damper i noticed oil leaking through the seal.
I wiped it off, but it continued leaking from only giving the bike a few pumps on the saddle.
So i sent it back to service and got it back...still leaking from pushing the saddle a few times.
Now i thought maybe it was the new shaft being out of measurement or something, so i called them and they had me send it back again to take another look.
After a while i got a call and was told that they can´t get the damper to seal and they don´t know why. They´ve checked the shaft, tried other shafts, nothing worked.
Apparently the sealhead bushing had been mangled badly though, so they suspect there had been something wrong there and maybe some lateral play may have caused this.
Now the Wilson does have this stupid wishbone damper yoke thingy, but here´s the thing. There´s no play in the linkage as far as i can tell. The shock bolt holding the eyelet was definitely done up proper tight, which i know because the damn thing was seized after the intital two rides and it was a pain to get it out. Something that apparently happens rather often with the Wilsons shock extension and that bolt.
So i highly doubt there has been any excessive force on the damper. Also those rides were just some mellow flow trails if that counts for anything.
After getting the shock back from the first service, i had it installed with a little less torque in order for the bolt not to seize again. Sadly on the last run the bolt came loose a little bit. After that it had developed a clunking topout noise, which could also be felt through the frame as vibration, once i retightened the bolt.
So i could definitely see how this may have actually damaged the sealhead bushing, however it doesn´t explain the earlier oil loss and the fact the newly done shock felt a little rough through the stroke from the get go, making slight scratching noises, which i attributed to maybe the new shaft being not as smooth as the original one even though it felt normal. I didn´t think too much about it at the time though, as it still felt really good while riding.
Now this would all be no big deal if RS wasn´t a piece of shit company which apparently stopped selling the sealhead assembly.
So right now the service center wants to try out a few more things next week, including the sealhead from a Kage they have lying around and getting it on their new dyno to maybe determine where the pressure is lost or something like that.
If that doesn´t work, im pretty much out 600€ for a piece of scrap metal i can toss in the bin after three rides or buy a new shock for one single spare part (only to maybe repeat the whole disaster if the problem isn´t found).

Now i´d really like to hear any of your thoughts on the whole thing.
Is it necessary to replace the whole sealhead? Wouldn´t it be possible to just change the bushing? If the bushing was mangled, would that explain the oil leakage?
Is there any possibility they fucked something up internally which led to all this as the initial scratchy stroke would suggest?
Was it just bad luck and/or the frame eating the shock?
I´m really bummed out right now, as i have to blindly trust the service center on this matter and they already let me know they pretty much don´t see themselves at fault, though they are rather cooperative up to this point.
So right now i honestly don´t know how to proceed really and would appreciate any input to maybe make a little sense of all this.
If i have to pay for spares, fine. I´m just not sure it´s worth it at this point if the whole thing just repeats itself again.

And yes, damper extensions suck, i know.
Bike feels awesome though.

In '15 I bought my Wilson and the RS Vivid was annoying cause it topped out and made a clunking noise ALL THE TIME. It was F'ing annoying. I sent my Fox DHX 5.0 from my Sunday to Avalanche and had it tuned. It didn't fit into the wishbone correctly cause I believe Devinci makes it to custom fit the OEM shock. In our case, the Vivid. I took a file and filed down the inside of the wishbone down till the Fox fit. Fortunately, this really isn't a strength issue since you're just filing the corner of the aluminum where there's no stress.

The bolt... It was over tightened on mine too. I've since just put blue Locktite on it and torque it tightly by hand. But not enough to strip anything. It never came loose.

 

[Loki87]

In '15 I bought my Wilson and the RS Vivid was annoying cause it topped out and made a clunking noise ALL THE TIME. It was F'ing annoying. I sent my Fox DHX 5.0 from my Sunday to Avalanche and had it tuned. It didn't fit into the wishbone correctly cause I believe Devinci makes it to custom fit the OEM shock. In our case, the Vivid. I took a file and filed down the inside of the wishbone down till the Fox fit. Fortunately, this really isn't a strength issue since you're just filing the corner of the aluminum where there's no stress.

The bolt... It was over tightened on mine too. I've since just put blue Locktite on it and torque it tightly by hand. But not enough to strip anything. It never came loose.

Thanks for the answer.
Luckily the topout on the Vivid isn´t a problem anymore with the upgrade on mine so i´m gonna give it another chance.

I´ve since given the Bike another careful inspection and noticed that the wishbone slightly migrates from side to side when i move it up and down by hand (with the damper detached from the bike). The two rubber seals seem to get compressed a little and allow the axle to move slightly inside the BB-Link housing and the needle bearings.
As if there was a spindle cut on the axle, pushing it sideways whenever it´s rotated.
I can´t force any play by hand though.
Is that something yours does too?

Might be the reason for the lateral force being applied to the shock. The bearings and axle seemed to be fine though, so i can´t really think of why they´re behaving that way. Might also be nothing and only occurs because the damper isn´t there to stabilize the whole system.
I´ll install a new axle and needle bearings anyways once the customs authority finally decides to release my shipment, just to be on the safe side, but it´d be good to know whether that´s a normal occurance or not.

 

[Electric_City]

I'm not sure if mine moves at all. I never really tried it though since I haven't had any issues.