[troy]

Dorado shcmado, you guys should go feel the torsional stiffness of a white brothers groove inverted. Those things must have bushings up the entire length of the legs. They were legitimately stiff. Not just just 'stiff for an inverted fork'

Of course they weigh like 9lbs but that just means you can strap fewer lead weights to your bike to keep chris porter happy.

Had DH2 (Groove predecessor from 2002 iirc, they were unchanged construction-wise up to this day from what I know) back in the days. It had three 1/2~tall bushings in each leg and those insanely huge, hollow crowns (nicely cnc machined btw). 888 (38mm legs) crowns for comparison.

 

[norbar]

Had DH2 (Groove predecessor from 2002 iirc, they were unchanged construction-wise up to this day from what I know) back in the days. It had three 1/2~tall bushings in each leg and those insanely huge, hollow crowns (nicely cnc machined btw). 888 (38mm legs) crowns for comparison.View attachment 126009View attachment 126010

I see you liked exploding forks even more than I did.

 

[kidwoo]

Had DH2 (Groove predecessor from 2002 iirc, they were unchanged construction-wise up to this day from what I know) back in the days. It had three 1/2~tall bushings in each leg and those insanely huge, hollow crowns (nicely cnc machined btw). 888 (38mm legs) crowns for comparison.View attachment 126009View attachment 126010

I had a dh3, and dh2 before that. Remember curbhucker who used to post here? He came out here with a new groove fork when they came out. Neither of my forks were anywhere near as stiff has his. I was still riding the DH3 I had I think too.

 

[kidwoo]

I had a dh3, and dh2 before that. Remember curbhucker who used to post here? He came out here with a new groove fork when they came out. Neither of my forks were anywhere near as stiff has his. I was still riding the DH3 I had I think too.

I thought that post felt familiar

White Bros. 180mm Groove Race 5.5lb fork ?

 

[toodles]

The other only advantage about inverted is that it's far simpler to make when all you have is a CNC machine.

FTFY

*edit* my bad, I forgot it also looks awesome and full moto

 

[troy]

I see you liked exploding forks even more than I did.

I think You are confusing dh2/dh3 models with some older ones - UD 180.

 

[norbar]

I think You are confusing dh2/dh3 models with some older ones - UD 180.

I only remember some of my friends had WB forks and they were not reliable. Also someonehad that superlight dc fork which had stanctions so close to each other it was ridiculous plus the dials had huge jumps every click so the fork was never set up properly.

 

[Kurt_80]

Dorado shcmado, you guys should go feel the torsional stiffness of a white brothers groove inverted. Those things must have bushings up the entire length of the legs. They were legitimately stiff. Not just just 'stiff for an inverted fork'

Of course they weigh like 9lbs but that just means you can strap fewer lead weights to your bike to keep chris porter happy.

No s**t?

I always thought White Bros were the Crank Bros of suspension.

 

[Sandwich]

I would love to see somebody weigh the lowers from a USD fork to compare them to a set of sliders on a RSD (what) fork. i'd bet the lightweight magnesium cast parts are not far off from the cnc'ed legs and clamps at this point. I used to love the concept of USD forks, but they just aren't practical for mtb use, not with the evolution that proper forks have undergone. heck, single crown forks are probably stiffer at this point than dual crown forks of the early 2000s.

Also, those avy forks were junk. Super smooth and never fazed when going fast, but the chassis was a complete nightmare. Any wreck required disassembling the crowns and realigning everything. They did have burp valves and an excellent axle setup before anyone else though.

 

[Jm_]

I would love to see somebody weigh the lowers from a USD fork to compare them to a set of sliders on a RSD (what) fork. i'd bet the lightweight magnesium cast parts are not far off from the cnc'ed legs and clamps at this point. I used to love the concept of USD forks, but they just aren't practical for mtb use, not with the evolution that proper forks have undergone. heck, single crown forks are probably stiffer at this point than dual crown forks of the early 2000s.

It's happened over the years, been in a few articles. I remember one specifically, the old 170/180 Marocchi 66 from 06/07. Those lowers weighed almost exactly .75lbs, or 341g,

 

[Udi]

I would love to see somebody weigh the lowers from a USD fork to compare them to a set of sliders on a RSD (what) fork. i'd bet the lightweight magnesium cast parts are not far off from the cnc'ed legs and clamps at this point. I used to love the concept of USD forks, but they just aren't practical for mtb use, not with the evolution that proper forks have undergone. heck, single crown forks are probably stiffer at this point than dual crown forks of the early 2000s.

Someone already did (back in '06), you can probably guess who. The casting was lighter.

I wrote a reply here but deleted it, because let's be honest - anyone who is actually delusional enough to think that an invert has valid benefits in an MTB application probably just deserves to ride one.

Thankfully it seems most of us here have our heads screwed on.

 

[Jm_]

Someone already did (back in '06), you can probably guess who. The casting was lighter.

I wrote a reply here but deleted it, because let's be honest - anyone who is actually delusional enough to think that an invert has valid benefits in an MTB application probably just deserves to ride one.

Thankfully it seems most of us here have our heads screwed on.

 

[Udi]

Benefits to USD:

• Significantly more flex in torsion, the exact plane that defines steering and directional control of the vehicle you are aboard, with minimal protection. You don't need to be "a WC rider" to notice this, I'm not sure why magically we now have a performance facet that doesn't scale down to all riders (according to Hacktastic) - because it does - ride them yourself back to back on a rough/rutted/steep DH track and you'll notice. Wide bars make this even more noticeable in modern times.
• Substantially heavier for given stiffness. So basically light+flexy or heavy+stiff(er) - pick one.
  
• Awkward weight distribution which makes manualling more difficult (and riding less fun subjectively IMO, applies to every single invert I've ridden.)
  
• Legs twisting easily in crowns during crashes (like sandwich points out).
  
• Work great on motorcross bikes because the target weight allowance is substantially higher and thus the stiffness drawbacks can be addressed. This applies to MTB how? Oh yeah, it doesn't. At all.
• @troy will want to be your friend. This one alone is enough to scare me off.

I remember back when on RM we'd have long threads about which RSD fork (copyright sandwich) was better. It certainly was hard to get it all in one package. Fast forward to 2017, and virtually every single conventional fork is awesome:

Fox 40 RC2 - Awesome. Drop a coil in if you want.
Boxxer / Charger - Awesome. Pick the team for coil if you want.
BOS Idylle FCV - Awesome. Even the air spring in this one is good.
XFusion RV1 - I haven't ridden it but by all reports a very good fork.
RUX - I haven't ridden it but we all know this is the most awesome.

We can nitpick benefits/drawbacks of each, but really they're probably all within 2% of each other once setup is matched. The future is now!

 

[kidwoo]

No s**t?

I always thought White Bros were the Crank Bros of suspension.

Nah those things were pretty legit. At least the inverted dh forks were. Really well made, fully and easily serviceable and all the internals were like the claws of the robots that will bring the apocalypse, made of metal. Even the pre groove ones like troy and I had were loads stiffer than the dorados and a million times stiffer than shivers. Just keep in mind the era we're talking about here though. Fox didn't exist in forks, boxxers couldn't keep oil in the lowers and could actually bend, and shit like Risse and hannebrink were somehow in business. As soon as the lower crowns came out for those OG black 888s I jumped off that inverted wagon.

 

[Sandwich]

hannebrink

I had one of those, with a doublewide wheel.

 

[kidwoo]

*vibes*

 

[StiHacka]

Fox 40 RC2 - Awesome. Drop a coil in if you want.
Boxxer / Charger - Awesome. Pick the team for coil if you want.
BOS Idylle FCV - Awesome. Even the air spring in this one is good.
XFusion RV1 - I haven't ridden it but by all reports a very good fork.
RUX - I haven't ridden it but we all know this is the most awesome.

Does my (not so) old trusty 888 CR belong in that list?

 

[roflbox]

RUX - I haven't ridden it but we all know this is the most awesome.

Loins: Girded

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Well it is at least nice to see that Bos is bringing new products to the market, first with the new Deville and now with this one even if it seams strategically questionable... On top of that they seem to structure their aftermarket business, at least in Europe, which was clearly needed.
I never tried a Bos fork but from what I heard and read the performance is there. So that I hope that they can put it together and reach their full potential.
#letsbosbegreatagain

 

[Udi]

Does my (not so) old trusty 888 CR belong in that list?

I was just listing current options, but yeah for sure. Plenty of decent 888s, even the old 35mm RC2X back in 06 before CRs and Evos was pretty good. I think the 380 had a lot of potential too but they messed something up and heaps of them ended up very sticky which is why I left that out, but everyone else seems to do a pretty good job now.

The handful of people touting USD benefits are hanging onto problems that were resolved at least a whole generation of products ago, and those touting the supposed "stiffness" of some old WB options are forgetting that adding stiffness via a sliding interface adds friction in proportion. Nothing special by modern standards.

#letsbosbegreatagain

The current forks are already good - the Idylle FCV is pretty good (I've ridden 4-5 now and they've been consistently good), and the Deville has a pretty happy userbase too. Switching to inverted would only send them backwards and I wouldn't even consider one personally.

I think the shocks could have better valving designs, but the major complaints with BOS are their terrible customer service (they are arrogant assholes), and I'd be reluctant to ever touch them again purely based on my experience. YMMV.

 

[Westy]

 

[William42]

The Rux is a WC winner now right?

If you can ride ride a rux, you can win a wc

 

[hitar_potar]

...

Fox 40 RC2 - Awesome. Drop a coil in if you want.
Boxxer / Charger - Awesome. Pick the team for coil if you want.
BOS Idylle FCV - Awesome. Even the air spring in this one is good.
XFusion RV1 - I haven't ridden it but by all reports a very good fork.
RUX - I haven't ridden it but we all know this is the most awesome.

We can nitpick benefits/drawbacks of each, but really they're probably all within 2% of each other once setup is matched. The future is now!

So, what you're saying is, Dorado and the Emerald are shit, is that it? And this new inverted Bos is going to join them???

 

[toodles]

So, what you're saying is, Dorado and the Emerald are shit, is that it? And this new inverted Bos is going to join them???

Sub-optimal might be the better term for all the semantics fans out there.

 

[toodles]

The Rux is a WC winner now right?

If you can ride ride a rux, you can win a wc

Technically after Ft William this year, RUXes had won more WCs in 2017 than any other brand.

 

[troy]

@troy will want to be your friend. This one alone is enough to scare me off.

 

[troy]

those touting the supposed "stiffness" of some old WB options are forgetting that adding stiffness via a sliding interface adds friction in proportion.

And for the love of god, would You please stop spreading Your another BS theory? The force due to friction is independent of the contact area between the two surfaces.

 

[kidwoo]

The handful of people touting USD benefits are hanging onto problems that were resolved at least a whole generation of products ago, and those touting the supposed "stiffness" of some old WB options are forgetting that adding stiffness via a sliding interface adds friction in proportion. Nothing special by modern standards.

Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I take back my earlier statement of "those were better than any current fork in every single way being made today" that I keep making over an over again. I mean I've said that so many times it's going to take a while to go back and address all those instances.

 

[Inclag]

And for the love of god, would You please stop spreading Your another BS theory? The force due to friction is independent of the contact area between the two surfaces.

That is correct sir. Ff = μN. Notice lack of area.

Now at the microscopic level the shearing stress between sliding surfaces is actually dependent on the real area of contact between 2 sliding surfaces. This is the peaks and valleys where materials touch off. Under loading their is a shearing component that is proportional to force and under increased force the real area of contact increases. I'm not a tribology expert, but my understanding is that the difference between the apparent macro area between surfaces and the real area which varies is so significant that we typically just run with the simplified Ff = μN.

 

[Inclag]

So what I'm hearing is that @kidwoo should buy one of these?

 

[DaveW]

So what I'm hearing is that @kidwoo should by one of these?

Sounds like it's mandatory for him to do that to me.

 

[kidwoo]

So what I'm hearing is that @kidwoo should buy one of these? View attachment 126023

I think all my posts in this thread clearly laying out the superiority of that fork over every other option made in 17 speak for themselves. As well as the fact that my last 5 forks have been boxxers, 888s or 40s. My preferences obviously indicate the groove fork for today's demanding rider.

 

[Jm_]

I was just listing current options, but yeah for sure. Plenty of decent 888s, even the old 35mm RC2X back in 06 before CRs and Evos was pretty good. I think the 380 had a lot of potential too but they messed something up and heaps of them ended up very sticky which is why I left that out, but everyone else seems to do a pretty good job now.

Err, I hacked apart those 66/888 RC2 and RC3 dampers from 06 and 08. Apart from being pretty decent chassis later on (except some of the 08 888s), they were pretty poor performing forks. While the chassis were seeing pretty good development, the dampers were crude coil-spring blow-offs or the crude HSCV style. It wasn't until about 2012 with the RC3 Evo V2 thing that got the base-valve style moto-cart that things started picking up, the stuff inside the forks before that was straight crap, although sometimes it seemed like better-smelling crap compared to other crap. I remember all the hype they had around the TST that it was going to be a moto-style damper and blah blah blah, but come to find out just another coil spring blow-off with a bladder, really nothing like a FIT or Charger, other than the fact that it had a bladder. We bought into this dipshit stuff for way too long.

They kept trying to repackage the damping and made it different, but never any less shitty (from already shitty) from about 2005-2012 or so. At least pre-2006 you knew what you were getting, from the 1997 Super Ts to the Shivers to the later production Super Ts: The same exact damping, every time.

 

[Mo(n)arch]

 

[jstuhlman]

just wait til his bars explode...

 

[norbar]

Oh come on. We all know there must be some sinister reason you live in a city known for this building

 

[norbar]

So what I'm hearing is that @kidwoo should buy one of these? View attachment 126023

You mean this:

Also wasn't Fast Suspension developing an USD Fork. @troy was it them or another french company? I remember the owner posting something and I know he's a friend of my father but since my father decided to hook up with a Krav Maga practicioner and live in the woods It's a bit hard to reach him.

 

[troy]

That is correct sir. Ff = μN. Notice lack of area.

Now at the microscopic level the shearing stress between sliding surfaces is actually dependent on the real area of contact between 2 sliding surfaces. This is the peaks and valleys where materials touch off. Under loading their is a shearing component that is proportional to force and under increased force the real area of contact increases. I'm not a tribology expert, but my understanding is that the difference between the apparent macro area between surfaces and the real area which varies is so significant that we typically just run with the simplified Ff = μN.

What You have described is basically "μ" - the coefficient of friction.

Looks like some big ass stanchions 40mm+. Loving that lower "drop" crown design

Oh come on. We all know there must be some sinister reason you live in a city known for this building

I live there just because this place was already taken.

About that french USD, I think it was Crconception - Fore fork. They had some nice features in there (1pc crown/steerer), squared bushings/stanchions to prevent twisting. It was ugly AF tho.
.

 

[norbar]

I live there just because this place was already taken.

About that french USD, I think it was Crconception - Fore fork. They had some nice features in there (1pc crown/steerer), squared bushings/stanchions to prevent twisting. It was ugly AF tho.
.

So you are basically living on the set of "Lord of the rings - Porn Parody" ?

Also The CRC fork had an SC version. Jesus.

On the other hand I really like the looks. Don't know much about the details since the last time I talked to Richard his English was a bit rough.

 

[iRider]

Intend makes some really nice USD single and dual crown forks:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/intend-suspension-bike-festival-riva-2017.html

It is the company of the dude behind the Trickstuff brakes.