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New Deemax Wheelset (tubes or no tubes)

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by kellyn7, Feb 7, 2009.

  1. kellyn7

    kellyn7 Monkey

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    I just purchased a set of 09 Deemax's and I trying to decide whether or not to run UST Maxxis Minion Tires or tubes with the Maxxis Minions 3C's. I do like the thought of having a lighter setup with the UST's but I'm worried about dependability, any thoughts, tips are greatly appreciated, thanks.
     
    #1 -   Feb 7, 2009

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  2. ?????

    ????? Turbo Monkey

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    UST is more dependable and easier to setup than a tube.
     
    #2 -   Feb 7, 2009
  3. bullcrew

    bullcrew Turbo Monkey

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    goin back to cali, cali, cali, goin back to cali!
    PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your wheels suck without pics for the peeps!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I am considering getting those as well!!!!!!!
     
    #3 -   Feb 7, 2009
  4. Curb Hucker

    Curb Hucker I am an idiot

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    Did you get them yet? Mavic says none will be available til March 30th.
     
    #4 -   Feb 7, 2009
  5. dexterq20

    dexterq20 Turbo Monkey

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    You're alive?! Where've you been hiding?
     
    #5 -   Feb 7, 2009
  6. all7alive

    all7alive Chimp

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    run em tubeless, you can run lower pressures w/o worrying about pinch flats there is also less going on(tube moving inside tyre etc..)
     
    #6 -   Feb 7, 2009
  7. kellyn7

    kellyn7 Monkey

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    I've got them sitting in my living room right now. Definately itching to mount them, just got get the rear offset (specialized demo 8) and i'll be putting them on.
     

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    #7 -   Feb 8, 2009
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  8. Curb Hucker

    Curb Hucker I am an idiot

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    under a mountain of large women
     
    #8 -   Feb 8, 2009
  9. Nagaredama

    Nagaredama Turbo Monkey

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    Doesn't one buy Deemax's to run tubeless? Otherwise you could probably have a lighter non-UST wheelset custom built for cheaper.
     
    #9 -   Feb 8, 2009
  10. buckoW

    buckoW Turbo Monkey

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    ?????
     
  11. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    I hope you're taking the piss. If not, time to find a drug rehab centre.

    The whole lower pressure with tubeless thing is a crock IMO*. You simply can't run the pressures as low with tubeless as you can with tubes, unless you don't corner hard (let's not kid ourselves here - Nathan Rennie is probably the #1 example of someone who tries his hardest to rip tyres off the rim in every corner, most of us just gently roll around the corners by comparison), because the things burp air otherwise. I've run Maxxis tyres with DH tubes for over 5 years with a total of 3 flats (one of which was caused by a pretty decent crash), during which time I trashed at least 8 rims (rear rims - plus two fronts) from running pressures that were just too low. You can't do that with tubeless, they just don't hold the bead that well.

    *The idea that you can run lower pressures I'm fairly sure comes from XC riding, where you could drop your tyre pressure from maybe 42-45psi down to the high 30's without the pinchflats normally associated with that. DH pressures are nowhere near that high and as a result it's pretty easy to pull the bead off the rim and burp air.
     
  12. buckoW

    buckoW Turbo Monkey

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    I can't run low pressures anymore because of cornering forces.

    This photo was taken after the 3rd time the tire ripped off the rim on the same corner. We were laughing hard but after the 3rd time I had to pump up the tire with a mini pump I was pretty annoyed.



    photo by Marco Toniolo
     
  13. ronan

    ronan Monkey

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    maybe the tire is the problem?
     
  14. ?????

    ????? Turbo Monkey

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    I can mount a Michelin DH tire to an 823 rim sans tire levers and have it inflated in about one minute. It takes 5 times that to mount a Michelin DH tire to a DT 6.1 or Mavic 729 and you have to fumble around with metal tire levers that kill your beads. I run mid 20's psi in my DH tires, which isn't any lower than I would with tubes, but I've never gotten a flat or blown a bead. In comparison I got lots of flats when I was using DT 6.1's (even with DH tubes).

    The same can be said with my Hutchinson xc tires and 819 rims. I don't even need compressed air for those. I can get my Michelin DH tires seated without compressed air about 50% of the time, but it really depends on the tire. If it is brand new or has been stored and kind of folded for a while then it will be more difficult to seat. If it has been used before and stored straight then they will usually go back on without compressed air. If you use metal tire levers to get the tires on, then prepare to have to use compressed every other time you mount that tire.

    Of course this all assumes that you are talking about UST tubeless. Using sealant and a rim strip with standard rims and tires is iffy at best and is a huge hassle to get setup and swap tires.

    The only thing I do is put some RTV sealant between the valve and the rim when I install it and that stops the majority of the long-term leaks. If I know that I won't be swapping tires for a long time i will put some Stan's in my XC bike, but I never have found the need with the Michelin's on my DH bike. In general I lose about 10psi over the course of a month if a bike is just sitting there without using any more than the drop of rtv sealant.
     
  15. tuumbaq

    tuumbaq Monkey

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    Im sorry bro but you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong on that one like you have NOOOOOOOOOOO idea what you are saying.Sorry I have to be an ass but what you said is unbelievably false.

    I for one tried running all kind of tubes/tires for many years and quite frankly, if I ran the tube with less than 35 PSI I would for sure pinch flat.Ive actually had one sometimes even 2 flats everytime I'd go to the park one year, it became a running gag ...got so sick of it and decided to put my money in a tubeless set up, best move Ive ever done in my life.

    Now after switching to a tubeless set up ( for almost 4 years now) I run 28 rear, 26 front and I've had ZERO flat in 4 years.The only time I had a problem was actually with a UST tire that didnt quite came off the rim but just enough to loose all the pressure.That was ONCE in 4 years..coming from a guy who spend 60+ days in Whistler every year plus countless days of doing shuttle in the valley.I think its a pretty good place for pushing the tires hard in the corners.

    With all that being said Im light, pretty smooth but aggressive (if that makes any sense)

    Back to the original question, I wouldnt recommend running UST tires, normal tires with 2-3 scoops of Stan works perfectly, probably lighter than UST , cheaper and you can get any tires you like pretty much.Plus Ive had bad experiences with the UST ones.There's no point getting Deemax if you dont have a tubeless set up, all you need is a compressor ( or go to your LBS) a jug of stan ( 30$ ?) and you are set.Super simple, easy to install, light and trouble free.Tubes are SOOOO 1995 IMO, theres no point running tubes anymore with the current technology.

    I do check the pressure with a digi gage everytime I go for a ride, sometimes it varies a bit, so there's obviously some sort of a leek but we're talking about 2-3 psi overnight.

    Socket maybe tubes are really ok in your part of the world but where I live trust me , if you can afford going tubeless, you'd be dumb not to do it.I go thru 1 rim every season, which I believe is reasonable for the amount of time I spend riding.Again Im light ( 160 ) maybe that helps but friends of mine ( some are much heavier ) are running tubeless as well with no problem.

    Oh and I dont think it came from XC riders, if there's one thing those guys would rather run 60 psi thinking they will climb faster and suck it up on the DH.To me it came with the whole Sam hill drifting phenomenon a few years back, I read somewhere he was running lower pressure ( dont know if he does anymore, dont really care either ;-)

    Wow long post , hope nobody felt asleep ! Get some Stan dude, you wont regret it.By the way I've been using regular minions for years ( 3c , 42a or even 60 A)
     
  16. davet

    davet Monkey

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    Funny thing is, every rider, bike, riding style, weight, trails are different. What works for some, doesn't work for others. You're being an ass because you think what works for you is the rule and will work for everyone.

    I destroyed 3 Alex Supra D rims in a month. I have a buddy that raced pro/elite all last year on a pair and they're still kicking. I think they're crap, he thinks they're awesome. What works for some doesn't work for others. Big-Ted on this board had a Boxxer that self destructed every 2 months. He hated it and thought it was crap. I bought it off him, had it rebuilt and have been using it every since, I think it's fantastic.

    As for the Deemax and UST tires, if the Deemax is still a fancy painted 823 (not sure if they are any more) I'd recommend to stay away from using Maxxis UST tires with them. I've got a bunch of tires in the garage that are basically new but have cuts in the bead area rendering them useless for tubeles applications. It seems the sharp edge of the rim doesn't like the thin bead area of the Maxxis UST tires. That being said, there's a ton of guys that don't have problems with that combination. The regular Maxxis tires aren't a problem at all.

    My thoughts on tubeless pressures go something like this. You can get the same feeling and traction from a tubeless tire at a higher psi than running tubes, the benefit being much lower rolling resistance. So while you "may" be able to run lower pressure without fear of pinchflatting, why would you since you can bump the pressure up to 30+, get the same traction and roll way faster.
     
    #16 -   Feb 9, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2009
  17. TomBo

    TomBo Monkey

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    tuumbaq - I've got to ask. When you were killing all of those tubes, before you went tubeless. How many rims were you cooking or tires for that matter.

    I ask because, if your are really that hard / fast / aggressive , whatever of a rider. There is some thing not really adding up to me. You say you drop 5-8psi and have much better reliability. If tubes at 35 psi didn't stand a chance, why now do your tires and rims hold up? In my experience, if your tubes fail regularly. Your rims and some times tires aren't far behind. I would have to say out of all of my exposure to other people running tubeless. That the results are 50/50, some people rock it and swear by it (generally lighter riders). Dave makes some very valid points. I don't think many fast, aggressive riders are running sub 30lbs, tubed or not. Tires get too squirmy and unreliable for flat protection.

    I am open to tubeless and have been playing around with it so ghetto + 3C, with good results. I do think 823s (or any proper UST rim) are the only way to go for tubeless. After picking up a old 3.1 for my trail bike, the difference over ghetto... Makes the cost a joke. For tires I am still not sure as I haven't really tried UST tires. The normal ones seem to work fine with some sealant.
     
    #17 -   Feb 9, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2009
  18. buckoW

    buckoW Turbo Monkey

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    It's the slashes in the sidewall from sharp rocks that don't permit me to run tubeless. That is the only reason why it doesn't work for me. The stiffer sidewall with a tube is also something I need/prefer in certain corners.
     
  19. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    ahahahahahaha yeah maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan what would I knoooooooooooow, all I did was actually ride regularly on the seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetups I mentioned for half a decade with virtually no flats. I'm 93kg (just over 200lbs) and managed two pinchflats in those 5 years (had one front flat that was caused by a decent crash, so doesn't count IMO). In that time I killed 8+ rear rims. Get that? 8 rims, 2 tubes. That's 4 rims per tube. I've burped tubeless tyres severely (all Maxxis) even at 30+ psi, on the back AND on the front. If you managed to pinchflat DH tubes, using real two-ply tyres, at 35+ psi, you should probably be a bit more aware that riding directly into staircases in the upwards direction at 60km/h isn't a great idea. In conclusion:

    Your opinion is wrong.
     
    #19 -   Feb 10, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2009
  20. tuumbaq

    tuumbaq Monkey

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    Im not sure Im following you buddy, maybe I wasnt clear the first time.All Im saying is if I had less than 35 PSI in my TUBES, I would pinch flat like crazy.When I switched to tubeless I could finally run the tires with less than 30 psi getting much more grip which suited my riding style.I never had a problem with tires or rims before, just the tubes.

    I wasn't going thru more rims neither before or after but I for sure became a better rider every year pushing the bike harder,therefore demanding more out of the rims but still a Mavic 823 will last me a full season, easily.Im not gonna try to argue on durability as Im aware Im fairly light but I can guarantee a tubeless setup can perform better than a tube ..well for me anyway.

    Now as for your comment about not many riders running low pressure I think you and Davet would be VERY surprise.Here's something for you :

    http://www.vorb.org.nz/tech-geek-sam-hill-ironhorse-sunday-t62640.html

    I cant recall where this came from, perhaps its not a reliable source but Ive read it many times as well and Ive watched Sam's (along with others) in the line-up many times and its easy to tell he's running low pressures as soon as he sits on his bike.

    Im aware that some riders prefers how a tire "sits" on the rims and roll while cornering when using a tube ( I believe I got that from Peaty ) but personally,I cant tell the difference ...

    Oh and Socket I was trying to remain kinda polite by saying sorry a bunch of times in my original post because I thought your statement was wrong, actually YOU WERE wrong when you said :

    "You simply can't run the pressures as low with tubeless as you can with tubes, unless you don't corner hard because the things burp air otherwise"

    Well Im sorry to to say this but FOR ME a tubeless setup WORKS @ 100% with lower pressures and its 10x better, there's no need for you to try to prove me wrong, cause it works ?!?:crazy:

    Maybe it doesnt work for you and I respect that (like I said it the first time perhaps it works for some riders but not for me) but I would have never got as far as saying your OPINION was wrong.Its call an OPINION not a fact , you'd have to explain to me how an OPINION can be wrong.Perhaps its my english, its not my mother tongue but from where I come from an OPINION isnt a fact...There you go again Im being an ass only this time I really mean it ! :brows:
     
  21. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    ahaha, the "your opinion is wrong" thing was taking the piss out of you telling me that MY opinion was wrong. As I said, I've got plenty of experience to back me up. Telling me I have "nooooooooo idea" when in actual fact I have years worth of empirical evidence is just retarded. Works for you? Great. In fact I'm still running tubeless simply because it's lighter, no other reason. It burps fairly regularly, it's pretty messy, it's annoying to inflate, but it makes the bike accelerate that much easier that I'll push on with it. 2 flats in 5 years with tubes... I'll take those odds too, just don't like the extra 1kg of rotational weight.

    See how you get annoyed when someone tells you that your experiences count for nothing and that you're just flat out wrong? Take a hint. Obviously your experiences differ from mine, welcome to the real world.
     
    #21 -   Feb 11, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2009
  22. ?????

    ????? Turbo Monkey

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    If you want tubeless get UST. All this worthless banter about tubeless sucking is coming from the people that run wheels and tires that were never meant to be tubeless.
     
    #22 -   Feb 11, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2009
  23. BigHitComp04

    BigHitComp04 Monkey

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    As was said before, what works for one person may not work at all for a different person. I would say try tubeless first to save weight, if you are blowing tires off and having issues then try running some tubes.

    Personally i ran 1 set of Maxxis DH tubes all race season and never had one flat. Still havent had a flat actually. Thats what works for me! :)