[kidwoo]

Actually the best way you can tell I'm american and not australian is because I've only humped one of my cousins. And I did it sober.

Come on man, everyone knows how air shocks work. What I meant when I said that curve doesn't translate is that it doesn't feel like a limp dick wagging around towards topout with no wheel pressure, or one that hangs up. If the end all be all of ride quality to you is a graph on a bike you've never ridden, then fine. I thought the same thing when those patrols, and that linkage curve showed up: "well that looks stupid". But it doesn't negatively affect the ride quality of it at all. It actually doesn't even feel like that curve is accurate. Plus I've mapped out enough bikes myself using that program to know that taking curves someone else generated as gospel is just stupid.

If you think pointing out something well known, not understanding that I very specifically was addressing a real world behavior that that curve would suggest.....namely that it doesn't really ride like that is 'correcting' me, then hey, correct™ on. But I've got more data points than you.

Or you can get off your high horse and maybe accept that there's at least a possibility that something else is going on. Or even better......at least go ride one.

 

[djjohnr]

Even if that graph is right, from top-out to the peak of the curve it goes from about 2.5125 to 2.565 in 25mm of travel. Yeah...good luck feeling that massively fucked up rate.

http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2014/08/transition-patrol-275-2015.html

 

[Kanye West]

That's what puts me off the Patrol too, especially if you're running an air shock. The Mega has a bit of digression at the start of the stroke too.

I think the Reign is a good choice because it's light, has excellent suspension and a lifetime warranty. It could be a bit stiffer but it's not too bad (the Trance is bad), and the seat angle could be steeper but again it's not terrible. They're also substantially lighter in alloy guise than other alloy frames (2.5kg w/o shock), and the carbon saves 200g. I'm not hugely pedantic about weight in downhill bikes, but trailbikes need to be light because climbing sucks. Water bottle mounts inside triangle.

I like the Rune as well, it actually has a mostly progressive leverage curve and with a lick of digression at the end (ratio increase of <0.1 at end, nowhere near as bad as the Legend). I wonder if what you felt wasn't a function of the shock/setup? I think it'd work quite well with a modern air spring (X2/debonair/corset). Seat angle is better than Reign, stiffer, but weight is markedly inferior too (3.27kg w/o shock). Unfortunately fails at water bottling.

The YT has a decent leverage curve but the antisquat numbers are a bit low for a trailbike @32T, both the Reign and Rune are better here. Fails at water bottle. The carbon ones were also cracking, not sure if fixed.

I have no idea what was up with the suspension feel on the Rune I had. I tried 3 or 4 different air shocks (CCDB, Fox Float, Manitou, X-Fusion Vector), and two coil shocks (RC4, X Fusion coil), and it seemed to have this ramp/bottom-out thing going on that I couldn't shake. The geometry on that bike was pretty good though. The reach was good, the seat angle was good, I just ran taller bars to get a bit more stack out of it and then it felt golden. I think the BB was sorta high on it. I had it in the middle geo setting the whole time.

On something like the E29 I can run the shock settings right, wrong, inside-out or otherwise and it still works decently well. That's one feature I do like a lot about the bike.

The stack measurement on the E29 I must admit feels really damn good too when standing and cranking. It's just the 29er trend of having the short reach and the slack seat angle I'm not enjoying. Looking at some of the 650B trailbikes, it looks like the stack could definitely afford to be a bit taller on a few of them. Looks good on the Transition and the GG though for sure. Probably looking at a L GG or an XL Transition by those numbers.

I'm still trying to figure out what landed cost would be on the YT (how much $ to actually put it at my door). Shipping, import fees, applicable taxes, etc. I suspect the perceived cost benefit might close up by a fair margin.

 

[RayB]

I'm still trying to figure out what landed cost would be on the YT (how much $ to actually put it at my door). Shipping, import fees, applicable taxes, etc. I suspect the perceived cost benefit might close up by a fair margin.

You can buy a YT in the USA. The bike ships from NV -- thus, as a CA resident, I believe you forego the sales tax.

 

[kidwoo]

I'm still trying to figure out what landed cost would be on the YT (how much $ to actually put it at my door). Shipping, import fees, applicable taxes, etc. I suspect the perceived cost benefit might close up by a fair margin.

You buy them from reno, there's no import anything. You even get out of sales tax being in californy. Just shipping.

edit: sniped!

Careful with the capra if you don't like really progressive bikes though. It's definitely that.

 

[Kanye West]

Bitchin'. Thanks! That makes the pricing game sort of ridiculous.

 

[Udi]

What I meant when I said that curve doesn't translate is that it doesn't feel like a limp dick wagging around towards topout with no wheel pressure, or one that hangs up.

Where did I ever say any of this? Putting words in my mouth and then saying I'm wrong is ridiculous.

It actually doesn't even feel like that curve is accurate. Plus I've mapped out enough bikes myself using that program to know that taking curves someone else generated as gospel is just stupid.

If you think pointing out something well known, not understanding that I very specifically was addressing a real world behavior that that curve would suggest.....namely that it doesn't really ride like that is 'correcting' me, then hey, correct™ on. But I've got more data points than you.

Or you can get off your high horse and maybe accept that there's at least a possibility that something else is going on. Or even better......at least go ride one.

1. If you really were such an expert on the program, all you'd need to do is look at other similar Transition bikes (like the Supressor, Scout, Smuggler, etc) to see that they all share the same LR characteristic. Just because you "feel" the curve is inaccurate, it doesn't make it true.
2. What does "doesn't negatively affect the ride quality at all" mean? Can you quantify that? I can tell you right now that it does negatively affect the ride quality - it's a question of how much it affects it, and what you deem acceptable. Perhaps I should have prefaced my post with "if you value optimal suspension performance", but I thought that was a given.
3. I'm not saying it's a bad bike, I'm just saying it's sub-optimal *in this particular respect* - and if we're making an objective comparison between multiple (currently available!) bikes - then *in this aspect* it's not the best.
4. I've ridden at 2 of the 4 transition frames mentioned, and one is the Patrol. I've also ridden every other bike I mentioned except the YT. I never said it was a bad bike, but I just think the leverage curve could be better - and listed at least 3 bikes that achieve just that. Here's another - the GG Megatrail.

When it comes to this particular aspect - it's pretty easy to correlate the graphs to reality, unless they are complete off, which in this case they're not. If you don't believe me, I'm sure between us we can draw and verify this.

If we're comparing bikes (which is what I thought this thread was about) then some are better than others, and I don't understand the point of these discussions if people don't want details. I don't think it's a bad bike at all, and it does some things better than others. It also does some things worse than others. The benefit of a forum over a pinkbike review is that it's possible to make direct comparisons that are quantitative and as mathematically concise as possible.

Even if that graph is right, from top-out to the peak of the curve it goes from about 2.5125 to 2.565 in 25mm of travel. Yeah...good luck feeling that massively fucked up rate.

You've missed the point - read post #38 again carefully.
Over a spectrum (for any particular performance aspect), there's a bad solution, a good solution and the most optimal solution possible. I never claimed anything was "massively fucked up".

A bad solution (for an air shock in a trailbike) would heavily digress in the first part of the travel, a good solution might have mild progression, and a great solution would have aggressive initial progression and flatten out. The bike in question is digressing for 20% of the travel where you would ideally have the aggressive opposite (my example of a good solution goes from 3.2 to 2.8 over the same 25mm - very different). In the Patrol's case, even if you call the digression a flatline, it's an OK solution at best.

I can tell you right now that the difference is very easy to feel - put the same shock in a Patrol and an Insurgent, set them up for the same rider. Almost anyone could tell them apart in a blind test. I'm not telling anyone to buy an Insurgent, I'm just saying this aspect does make a perceivable difference.

 

[Udi]

I have no idea what was up with the suspension feel on the Rune I had. I tried 3 or 4 different air shocks (CCDB, Fox Float, Manitou, X-Fusion Vector), and two coil shocks (RC4, X Fusion coil), and it seemed to have this ramp/bottom-out thing going on that I couldn't shake.

If you actually tried that many shocks (esp. the RC4), coupled with the fact that it is a twin short link bike, then it's entirely possible that there might be more digression than the graph suggests in this case. Sounds like it's off the list.

Anyway, I think the GG Megatrail is a pretty good bike if the weight is acceptable to you (3.17kg w/o shock is the figure I found). Does everything pretty decent and really nothing wrong. Do you have a number for the Capra frames to compare, out of curiosity? Had a quick look and couldn't find one.

 

[kidwoo]

Putting words in my mouth and then saying I'm wrong is ridiculous.

Welcome to my world.


Then how about this: specifically, how does that goofy arc at the beginning of the leverage curve not achieve, ahem......"optimization?"

As in what real world scenario does a straight line, consistently sloped leverage curve benefit ride quality and how, especially above the sag point like that. I already know the answer and it's why I thought that patrol map looked horrendous as well. But 'optimal' vs. 'not optimal' is about as useful as the giant video you like to make fun of. What about that range of travel in the transition bikes did you not like? Answer that with some parallel to riding experience, not a reference to what a graph plainly shows. Get out of the theory and what you've genuinely experienced as a result of that setup, on the dirt.

And trust me, I value a stance of 'well just because you don't feel it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist' a hell of a lot more than some basic explanation of how air shocks and leverage curves work as some kind of 'correction'. That at least makes sense.

What I can tell you is (and I already did in my first post on the matter) is that that portion of the travel is flat enough that the minimal digression is pretty much irrelevant. Not by looking at the graph but riding it. It doesn't have that break loose and haul ass into the travel feeling that the SC bikes do, and I did use that example for a reason, it's the extreme case. And as djjohnr pointed out, yeah the shape shows a change but it's essentially flat. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it means that it doesn't create noticeable changes in the suspension rate as you move through it riding. You know those big neg chamber air shocks do a pretty good job of coming smoothly off the top of the travel. At the very least it's smooth. Optimal™ or not, that means it's predictable, and to a degree therefore tunable. That to me is getting at least halfway there with any design.

I'd change it too. But given how much else is going on with the bike, I'd honestly say that bit of the travel and how it truly behaves in MY experience is that it's a non-issue. You can disagree with me and say you DO feel it negatively affects it but you still haven't explained how without running around in a circle with your thumb up your ass screaming "but-sub optimal! sub-optimal!, have you seen the graph!!??"

 

[Udi]

Honestly, if I used descriptions like "break loose and haul ass into the travel feeling" then I'd be a writer for Pinkbike. Or you. Not Udi the condescending, graph-posting ass from RM.

djjohnr pointed out nothing correct, as I explained very clearly in my previous post - this isn't a stab at him or you, but if you're going to quote something backing up a claim, quote a fact. You're still missing the point - the problem isn't that it's digressing a little, it's that it's flat when it should be aggressively progressing. I even provided numbers for comparison. If you genuinely want to understand, read my last two posts again carefully, including the part where I quoted djjohnr.

If you want to know the real world benefit in simple terms - it's that you can have a trailbike with an air shock that absorbs bumps almost as well as a DH bike does, without any real compromise for that benefit. The Patrol is further from that than the bikes I recommended. It's also not as bad as some bikes, but if we're after the best (in this aspect) then this isn't it.

If you want to feel the real world benefit then you need to set up an objective comparison (not the easiest thing to do unfortunately, but possible - two bikes with the same shock set up for the same rider is a good start). Notice that I keep comparing this bike to others, whereas you keep shooting down what I say without considering the comparisons I'm making.

Finally, as I said it's not a bad bike, but it could be improved in this particular area (the LR curve). If someone wants to improve the bike because they already own it, or want to choose it because other aspects make it the best choice for them, then my suggestion is to put a coil shock in it (ideally something with a small shaft like a CCDB or X2-C) since it'll reduce the drawbacks substantially - as they apply primarily when using an air shock.

 

[Udi]

Maybe I was unfair picking on this aspect since it's something I personally value highly in a trailbike (suspension performance), since I feel this is the area they suffer the biggest loss in compared to a downhill bike.

So to be fair - the Patrol:

• Is noticeably torsionally/axially stiffer than most AM frames, of note Giant / Devinci / Evil - so the Transitions in general are better for bigger guys / harder riders that value this
  
• Has a steeper effective seat angle than a lot of frames, which is also pretty important on a trailbike
• Can hold a water bottle inside the main triangle which I think is cool (the Giant can, but the Rune and YT can't)
• Has 16.9 chainstays (similar to other Transitions) which I think is an ideal number, makes it feel a bit less "tippy" on steeper trails compared to the Reign/Rune for a given size/wheelbase.

And as I suggested above if you also value maximising suspension performance, a small-shaft coil shock would help a lot, combining the Patrol's other benefits with this would make for a sweet bike. Finally I think they're slightly on the heavy side (in alloy), but they're comparable to Banshee, GG, and other alloy frames, plus you can now get a Patrol Carbon which gives it an edge over the Rune for example where you can't really choose a lighter option.

I just think it's important to be objective about each aspect individually rather than watering down certain considerations just because a bike is good at other things - otherwise you might not pick the best bike for you, and also potentially not improve things that can be improved.

 

[Kanye West]

Almost anyone could tell them apart in a blind test. I'm not telling anyone to buy an Insurgent, I'm just saying this aspect does make a perceivable difference.

So.....what WOULD you say about an Insurgent? Is the quality of the Evil bikes still a total crapshoot? I know they're supposed to ride well. They always have. Just been timebombs in terms of reliability. Geo looks good on them. Maybe a tiny bit slack in the seat angle, but it looks more proportionate than the angles on my E29 right now.

 

[Udi]

So.....what WOULD you say about an Insurgent? Is the quality of the Evil bikes still a total crapshoot? I know they're supposed to ride well. They always have. Just been timebombs in terms of reliability. Geo looks good on them. Maybe a tiny bit slack in the seat angle, but it looks more proportionate than the angles on my E29 right now.

I can't comment on the long term reliability of the Insurgent, I rode the bike and really liked the suspension on it (the Insurgent coupled with a Float X2 is probably the closest thing to actual DH coil-like air suspension I've felt - very supple off the top, and fairly linearly supportive for the rest) - but the seat angle is slacker than ideal. They're also a bit less stiff than the more burly options, which doesn't bother me a lot personally on a trailbike but may for others.

I didn't have a positive experience with Evil support / quality in the past so I couldn't personally buy another or recommend one. Things might be different now, so it wouldn't be fair to take my word - better to ask a more current owner like @Sandwich .

 

[Udi]

Also not sure if anyone cares, but you can't compare seat angles from geo charts directly since it's a virtual measurement that most manufacturers publish (so a 73* SA might actually be steeper and place the seat in a better place for climbing at full extension than a 75* SA - since they aren't actual tube angles, unless specified as such).

So in the spirit of being objective, I thought I'd check how much steeper than the Reign the Patrol actually is, since I honestly thought they could both be a bit steeper. Turns out they're pretty close to identical!

 

[Gary]

No one else disappointed with the lack of cousin fucking Vs sobriety graphs?

 

[jstuhlman]

wait...are we weighing the pros and cons of moving to west virginia now?

 

[ianjenn]

So.....what WOULD you say about an Insurgent? Is the quality of the Evil bikes still a total crapshoot? I know they're supposed to ride well. They always have. Just been timebombs in terms of reliability. Geo looks good on them. Maybe a tiny bit slack in the seat angle, but it looks more proportionate than the angles on my E29 right now.

You really stuck on this 650B scam?

The Insurgent is pretty good. Keep in mind mine is a DH build and I am using a Vivid AIR so I am basically riding around on a couch. The bike pedals well, is very supple (I DON'T GIVE A RATS ABOUT THAT), angles are pretty good. It isn't to low. The MEGA is way stiffer. I have two rings in the shock now and can probably add another. It is pretty linear. They are made in the same factory as SC bikes BTW now.....

 

[Sandwich]

very pleased with the build quality of my following. Not impressed with rear stiffness. Need to double check tension in my wheel but the spokes seem tight. Very happy with customer service- my frame did not come with a FD plate cover and when I called they got one to me in two days with no charge. They've made running changes to the frame which I think is pretty smart- they started with a formula axle, that wasn't great so they started shipping shimano axles until they could get their own bolt axle off the ground. I need to call to see if I can get one of those as the shimano axle is only so-so in this application.

I hate the slack seat angle, I'm currently running a thomson in reverse with my silverado ti slammed forward. I might look into a fizik thar saddle that gives you even more room to jam your saddle forward. that being said, I love almost everything else about the bike. It's super fun and playful and light. It pedals well and the suspension is pretty good. So far, it's relatively creak free and I expect it to remain so. I don't like the rear flex but I think that's something that some people hate and some people don't notice, and I don't think it's a deal breaker for me. The bike is so fucking confident it's crazy.

 

[djjohnr]

djjohnr pointed out nothing correct, as I explained very clearly in my previous post - this isn't a stab at him or you, but if you're going to quote something backing up a claim, quote a fact.

1) Everyone in this discussion is using a graph someone created looking at pictures (super accurate yeah?)

2) I pointed out that based on the super accurate graphs data set, the delta between the point A and point B amounts to 2% over 25mm, which I propose no one could actually feel vs dead linear

3) I'm pretty sure most of this people on this thread understand the issues of an air shock and possible corresponding linkage rates to work with that design, so you can probably stop trying to explain it to death (it's not like we've never had this discussion before)

4) The difference here is some of us feel a linear initial rate with an air shock using a new larger can isn't much of an impediment, YMMV obviously

 

[Sandwich]

I felt a smuggler in the shop and was pretty impressed by its suppleness off the top with the dual air can. That's not a ride report, obviously.

One thing I've always wondered is how often people are riding in the top 5% of travel? I mean, at sag you're at 30% or thereabouts. The only time you're going to be that high in the travel is when you're sitting on the bike first thing, pressing on it in a bike shop, or landing from a jump...in which case you aren't going to notice initial stickiness all that much, right?

 

[4130biker]

You bring up a good point that we aren't in that travel range as often as others, but I think big holes, top outs after g-outs and rollers, etc. All stuff that could potentially hang you up a bit.

 

[Sandwich]

You're not wrong, I mean convenience is hardly a reason to not design a bike well, and there are better designs...I just wonder if the problem is significantly muted because of its location in a bikes travel. Yes it certainly matters on paper, and in real world feel you can probably tell its there...but the number of times people could numerically say "Man, this bike sinks into its travel slightly less than ideally" is probably pretty few.

 

[Kanye West]

Braking bumps. You'll feel it all the time in bigass braking bumps. Same with deeper rockgardens or other high frequency, high amplitude crap.

It's a valid concern, especially with something in the system that has lots of initial force to overcome (air spring). But as stated, that's one part of a larger system with other important elements.

I expect the curve on the Patrol is "good enough" for what I'm doing, which is really rough terrain, but non-competitive. I'll have to track one down to try out.

 

[Kanye West]

You really stuck on this 650B scam?

The Insurgent is pretty good. Keep in mind mine is a DH build and I am using a Vivid AIR so I am basically riding around on a couch. The bike pedals well, is very supple (I DON'T GIVE A RATS ABOUT THAT), angles are pretty good. It isn't to low. The MEGA is way stiffer. I have two rings in the shock now and can probably add another. It is pretty linear. They are made in the same factory as SC bikes BTW now.....

650B scam or 29er scam. Pick your poison. The E29 absolutely monster trucks over stuff. It's just crazy. Cornering behavior is a little funky unless you have a really good berm. The front end "wobble" is prevalent when trying to make steering corrections in a corner.

The big killer is the seat angle and that I really should be on an XL if I'm going to run a 50mm stem. Longer stems make the steering more weird.

Still the most equipment options for a 650B now than 26 or 29. By FAR.

 

[mtg]

The one leverage curve I found on Google for the MegaTrail looked consistently progressive from 2.8 down to 2.3 (roughly). Is that accurate?

Correct.

And, for weight, we weigh ours in size Medium, as do many other companies. However, their medium sized frames are closer to our size Small, so keep that in mind when making comparisons.

 

[xy9ine]

i demo'd a patrol last year. i really liked it. it was fun.

 

[Sandwich]

i demo'd a patrol last year. i really liked it. it was fun.

yeah but what about those first 10mm tho

 

[Kanye West]

Sandwich, didn't you have an E29 before?

 

[W4S]

i really like my capra, i don't find it to be too progressive at all but i ride with clips. it pedals through rocks lke mad but still feels like a 140mm bike when pedaling hard, out of seat efforts. I don't have any problem using all the travel at recommended psi on hard hits. i would have no problem recommending the suspension, have no idea how the xl will fit though. some have said the BB is high, it's not, I wouldnt want it any lower.

 

[xy9ine]

yeah but what about those first 10mm tho

now that i've seen the graphs, i'll retract my statement. bike obviously sucks.

 

[Sandwich]

Sandwich, didn't you have an E29 before?

Yep

 

[kidwoo]

Honestly, if I used descriptions like "break loose and haul ass into the travel feeling" then I'd be a writer for Pinkbike. Or you. Not Udi the condescending, graph-posting ass from RM..

What would the neighbors think!!??

If you want to feel the real world benefit then you need to set up an objective comparison (not the easiest thing to do unfortunately, but possible - two bikes with the same shock set up for the same rider is a good start). Notice that I keep comparing this bike to others, whereas you keep shooting down what I say without considering the comparisons I'm making.

Notice this: I had two different megatrails in my possession across the time I rode the patrol. Not the same literal shock because they use different lengths and I did switch back and forth between a monarch and a db inline but I did ride low tune monarchs on all three of them. You and I both can pick apart some details about a true scientific breakdown but all three of these bikes I rode multiple times on trails I've ridden hundreds of times behind where I live. That's a pretty good comparison in my opinion. And guess what........that little weirdness in the curve on the patrol above sag is not something I noticed as any sort of detriment to actually riding the bike over the megatrails I compared to. It didn't feel overly loose which is what I expected from the flat-ISH slope, and it didn't hang the wheel on things which is what I expected from the true shape with a lower leverage on the wheel at true top out. I had all those bikes my possession in order to literally compare them to one another because I was going to buy one of them.

So again......you're still throwing theory around without talking about what those curve shapes meant in YOUR riding experience. Not what you 'know' they mean, but what it actually did in your riding. Nobody's trying to force you to do anything, I'm just pointing out the differences in what we've brought to the table. As far as a megatrail with a supposedly more optimized™ leverage curve vs. one that looks silly on the patrol, I'm saying in my opinion, I thought the differences were irrelevant, certainly as it pertains to differentiating the two for a likely purchase. You know......comparing them comparatively in a comparison.

 

[Udi]

Braking bumps. You'll feel it all the time in bigass braking bumps. Same with deeper rockgardens or other high frequency, high amplitude crap.

It's a valid concern, especially with something in the system that has lots of initial force to overcome (air spring). But as stated, that's one part of a larger system with other important elements.

@kidwoo @Sandwich @djjohnr

This.

If you are riding smoother trails it won't be a big issue, however in rough choppy terrain or tracks where you are gapping in and out of rough sections regularly, there will be a difference. It could be a very insignificant issue with a coil shock, or more noticeable with an air shock depending on can linearity.

At least the guy who started the thread understands what I was trying to say - and for the millionth time, I never said it was a huge issue but maybe next time I should use hand puppets to explain magnitude.

1) Everyone in this discussion is using a graph someone created looking at pictures (super accurate yeah?)

2) I pointed out that based on the super accurate graphs data set, the delta between the point A and point B amounts to 2% over 25mm, which I propose no one could actually feel vs dead linear

3) I'm pretty sure most of this people on this thread understand the issues of an air shock and possible corresponding linkage rates to work with that design, so you can probably stop trying to explain it to death (it's not like we've never had this discussion before)

4) The difference here is some of us feel a linear initial rate with an air shock using a new larger can isn't much of an impediment, YMMV obviously

1) No, not even close. The Corset graphs were created from dyno testing results, and if you don't understand how Linkage works look it up, the inaccuracies are WAY more minor than some people on this forum make out, and if you are experienced with the program (Antonio - who is also on this forum - has probably done more bikes than anyone in the world) the results are close enough to reality. As I also showed, if the trend is repeatable over multiple bikes of the same design it's a good indication of accuracy.

2) My point was that dead linear wasn't at all ideal at this point, but you keep going on about the small amount of digression. The issue is the linearity. Digression is worse. Yes it's not a huge issue, I never said it was, I just said it's sub-optimal and both you and @kidwoo have blown my statement out of proportion.

3/4) Well you clearly don't (even though you say you do), since a "new larger air can" could mean anything - some are significantly worse than others (as the EVOL vs Corset graph illustrates), so the magnitude of this problem is heavily dependent on shock choice (even within air shocks). There is literally only one sleeve from a small manufacturer that has matching graphical evidence to show that it functions close to a coil - so for every other shock there's no public data - and thus you don't actually know how much of an impediment it is.

 

[kidwoo]

@kidwoo @Sandwich @djjohnr

This.

If you are riding smoother trails it won't be a big issue, however in rough choppy terrain or tracks where you are gapping in and out of rough sections regularly, there will be a difference. It could be a very insignificant issue with a coil shock, or more noticeable with an air shock depending on can linearity.

At least the guy who started the thread understands what I was trying to say - and for the millionth time, I never said it was a huge issue but maybe next time I should use hand puppets to explain magnitude.

Yeah I had no idea what I meant when I was talking about the wheel hanging up. So that makes two of us I guess.




Here......my simple, unrefined American brain can't process super duper complex things like changing leverage curves and how they translate to evolving force dynamics. So I made this graphic for you to use to keep it simple for me in the future.

This should be good to bring things down to my obviously inferior level.

 

[jstuhlman]

is everyone really so weight/image conscious that they won't just run a damn coil?

 

[kidwoo]

is everyone really so lazy uphill that they won't just run a damn coil?

I know I am!

 

[johnbryanpeters]

is everyone really so weight/image conscious that they won't just run a damn coil?

Ran a coil. Coil worked. Running air. Air works.

 

[Kanye West]

Yep

I don't feel like searching. Why did you switch exactly? Link Fuckage? Any regrets going to the smaller wheels?

 

[djjohnr]

@kidwoo @Sandwich @djjohnr

This.

If you are riding smoother trails it won't be a big issue, however in rough choppy terrain or tracks where you are gapping in and out of rough sections regularly, there will be a difference. It could be a very insignificant issue with a coil shock, or more noticeable with an air shock depending on can linearity.

At least the guy who started the thread understands what I was trying to say - and for the millionth time, I never said it was a huge issue but maybe next time I should use hand puppets to explain magnitude.



1) No, not even close. The Corset graphs were created from dyno testing results, and if you don't understand how Linkage works look it up, the inaccuracies are WAY more minor than some people on this forum make out, and if you are experienced with the program (Antonio - who is also on this forum - has probably done more bikes than anyone in the world) the results are close enough to reality. As I also showed, if the trend is repeatable over multiple bikes of the same design it's a good indication of accuracy.

2) My point was that dead linear wasn't at all ideal at this point, but you keep going on about the small amount of digression. The issue is the linearity. Digression is worse. Yes it's not a huge issue, I never said it was, I just said it's sub-optimal and both you and @kidwoo have blown my statement out of proportion.

3/4) Well you clearly don't (even though you say you do), since a "new larger air can" could mean anything - some are significantly worse than others (as the EVOL vs Corset graph illustrates), so the magnitude of this problem is heavily dependent on shock choice (even within air shocks). There is literally only one sleeve from a small manufacturer that has matching graphical evidence to show that it functions close to a coil - so for every other shock there's no public data - and thus you don't actually know how much of an impediment it is.

1) Corset data - agree. Linkage - I've used it, it's garbage in/garbage out. You can't get highly accurate measurements from a photo at the scales we're talking about. I think those graphs are decent approximations but not gospel.

2) I'm sorry if I misconstrued your comments

3/4) I own a Corset, '16 Monarch Debonair and Float X2 - all three feel worlds more coil-like then any previous air shocks I've owned/ridden. None of them feel any better off the top to me then the others, and none of the bikes they are on are optimized for an air shock at the beginning of travel (according to the linkage site were all referencing).

 

[djjohnr]

is everyone really so weight/image conscious that they won't just run a damn coil?

I always prefer a coil provided it gives me a rate I like when combined with a given frame. I was thinking of getting a DHX2 for my Delirium but considering I'm maxed out on spacers in the Float X2 I probably won't.