[Kanye West]

Linkage can tell you general shape and end conditions of a curve as long as none of the members are getting close to a Grashof condition, within reasonable position errors. Overall scale of the curve may be off, but as long as the incident angles and link rotations are close, you'll have a good idea of what's going on.

Example, top link on a 1st gen V10c that could "pop through" if you put your mind to it. Millimeters count there. The exact placement of the FSR pivot on most bikes? Usually meaningless inside of an inch.

 

[Udi]

is everyone really so weight/image conscious that they won't just run a damn coil?

I run coil on everything I own, I prefer it.
For AM/Enduro it's nice if the frame isn't too heavy so the build w/ coil is reasonable.

 

[Kanye West]

Right. On alumimum framed trail bikes, pedaling extra weight up sucks, so air it is. I would consider a coil if I got a CF frame.

The added static friction helps a bit with pedaling forces too as a side benefit, even if it does create hysteretic behavior in the spring curve.

 

[Sandwich]

I don't feel like searching. Why did you switch exactly? Link Fuckage? Any regrets going to the smaller wheels?

lol@ link fuckage

I really, really liked the e29. It's a great bike. I didn't like the tall stack height and the bike "felt" big. Between the stack (not fork-stack height) and the large x brace right up your grundle, it was a bit of a pig. The biggest and most realest reason is that it had 6" of travel, and that was too much for a trail bike, which is what I wanted/needed.

The following is lighter, with less travel, is more efficient because of the pivot location, but is also slower handling and actually feels less nimble than the e29. It is the perfect trail bike, for me at least. I didn't need nor want 6" of travel, but I wanted the handling of the enduro. If spec had quit fucking around and made the camber a real bike 3 years ago, I'd be on that, but why change chainstay length just so a bike rides significantly better, amirite? I don't find myself fiddling with knobs once I find the right settings, so I didn't need to worry about shock compatibility if the stock tune is done well, and the front triangle fits a bottle too. Also, it still has wagon wheels. I didn't want to switch.

The only thing I wish I did differently on the following would be to have kept a 46mm offset fork instead of 51. 51 feels weird, and I think that might be amplifying any difference between the enduro and evil.

 

[Kanye West]

lol@ link fuckage

I really, really liked the e29. It's a great bike. I didn't like the tall stack height and the bike "felt" big. Between the stack (not fork-stack height) and the large x brace right up your grundle, it was a bit of a pig. The biggest and most realest reason is that it had 6" of travel, and that was too much for a trail bike, which is what I wanted/needed.

The following is lighter, with less travel, is more efficient because of the pivot location, but is also slower handling and actually feels less nimble than the e29. It is the perfect trail bike, for me at least. I didn't need nor want 6" of travel, but I wanted the handling of the enduro. If spec had quit fucking around and made the camber a real bike 3 years ago, I'd be on that, but why change chainstay length just so a bike rides significantly better, amirite? I don't find myself fiddling with knobs once I find the right settings, so I didn't need to worry about shock compatibility if the stock tune is done well, and the front triangle fits a bottle too. Also, it still has wagon wheels. I didn't want to switch.

The only thing I wish I did differently on the following would be to have kept a 46mm offset fork instead of 51. 51 feels weird, and I think that might be amplifying any difference between the enduro and evil.

Good info.

Yeah I do not mind a "big" feeling bike one bit, except when jumping and if it gets nose heavy. That's usually when the reach is too long and the stack is too low. I think the E29 jumps absolutely awesome because of the tall stack actually. When descending I don't think the bike is one bit too big.

I really want to try a 29er with the 46mm offset. What I'm feeling in the front I think is the result of the 51mm offset. Very, very similar to what I notice on certain dirt bikes that come with larger offsets (wheel flop, front end push), and is usually cured/stabilized by -2mm or -3mm offset clamps. The 5mm change should be substantial. If it weren't for the steering weirdness, I'd look at other 29ers. The thing is a rocketship everywhere else on the descents.

 

[Udi]

And guess what........that little weirdness in the curve on the patrol above sag is not something I noticed as any sort of detriment to actually riding the bike over the megatrails I compared to. It didn't feel overly loose which is what I expected from the flat-ISH slope, and it didn't hang the wheel on things which is what I expected from the true shape with a lower leverage on the wheel at true top out.

Something you didn't manage to notice /= something that doesn't exist.

If you think such a small change in leverage curve is going to cause something to feel "overly loose" and "hang the wheel on things" then you (as I already stated) have trouble with the concept of magnitude. It's a small problem in the curve, it's not going to be glaringly obvious unless you have Fabien Barel levels of sensitivity.

However what it is, is a small imperfection that will cause *some* deviation in performance compared to the optimum design.

Here's an example: if you change a bike's geometry by 0.3* in HA then most riders probably won't feel it, but if you add that to a small change in BB, WB and CS, then suddenly a person might notice a tangible difference. You are using this phenomenon to write off the fact that the 0.3* change in HA alone will still cause measurable changes in performance. Just because you can't directly perceive something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This is why I used the graphs (which you are belittling and claim to know everything about), since some of the individual changes that sum to create human perception may only be visible mathematically/theoretically. By mathematically I don't just mean a graph, you could see a perceivable improvement if you timed a pro rider over multiple runs and compared times.

Lots of small optimisations add up to make a great bike. If all else were equal (which may or may not be the case), then small improvements like this make one bike better than the other.

 

[kidwoo]

I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate. Couple things......

I think you and I both might have been projecting a little bit onto poor hack here, me with thinking his concerns were going to be something he negatively felt riding that bike (I honestly thought it might be an issue when I got on one, I've noticed and disliked less that can be seen in that program, and like you said, this one exaggerated by an air shock), and you thinking he may have been looking for imperceptible advantages that only make the most minute of differences in a lab or within tenths of a second somewhere. I think it's fair to say that none of the three of us are in any sort of activity that where the latter should determine a purchase. It's not the sort of thing that's going to be the difference between winning a local race or my priority, just pinning bikes and having fun scaring yourself. Maybe I'm wrong about your part but that's what I assumed he was asking on mine.

BTW if you want to get nitpicky about what someone 'feels' recall the hell you gave me over just sticking a different damper in a fork that very certainly did something the original didn't, just because they were both bladder dampers and you couldn't understand why I'd want to. I don't think you need fabien barel to pick up on minutia, in the pursuit of something better. But neither you or I will ever know what someone else interprets or picks up on. So I don't why it needs to be such a production where you think you need to 'correct' someone *still* based on a theoretical ideal. And yes I think the differences we've been talking about are still a theoretical ideal for all realistic purposes. There are far too many other things going on with an active rider on a bike to make such a big deal about something so small. I wasn't talking about 'glaringly obvious' (which a nomad really is), I was talking about potentially 'minorly annoying' in this case.

In this particular instance I'd still say the differences in the range we're talking about are pretty asymptotic approaching zero. But we can differ on that.

I've said pretty much exactly what you did in your third paragraph a few days ago talking about another bike btw......

You're not arguing with someone who thinks you're wrong about everything, just someone who disagrees with regards to relevance.

 

[Kanye West]

What?

 

[jstuhlman]

just pinning bikes and having fun scaring yourself.

YESYESYES

 

[4130biker]

Hell of a thread you started here Hacktastic... All this bickering is making lizard Jesus cry!

 

[Kanye West]

This is what RideDonkey is the offseason is for. Pointless dick-waving, sharing feelings, and braiding each others hair on the internet.

 

[Vrock]

Guys, a couple of years ago a friend of mine was "sponsored" by Transition, he asked about the new bikes and he got me all the info I needed to do the Linkage model (Blueprints, Geo, etc...). So this is one of that times when I'm 100% confident in the results.

The bike is a little bit regressive at the beginning of the travel, but it was one of the first bikes using a Debonair air can, so it works really well.

 

[Mo(n)arch]

I'd take the Carbon Patrol.
Because T.I.T.S. (tube in tube system).

Guys, a couple of years ago a friend of mine was "sponsored" by Transition, he asked about the new bikes and he got me all the info I needed to do the Linkage model (Blueprints, Geo, etc...). So this is one of that times when I'm 100% confident in the results.

The bike is a little bit regressive at the beginning of the travel, but it was one of the first bikes using a Debonair air can, so it works really well.

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[Udi]

Pretty keen for some hair braiding myself!

So this is one of that times when I'm 100% confident in the results.

Thanks for sharing! I had no doubt in your graphs but it's great to have verification.

I think you and I should do some hair braiding

@kidwoo
At this point it's nothing to do with Hack, the guy is obviously an engineer and realises both the implications of what I described and the magnitude of the problem (also sounds like he understands the accuracy vectors of the Linkage program which not many do). He may even happily buy the bike in question with a pretty thorough understanding of what's discussed and how to address it.

It'd be good if you stopped watering my posts down to "imperceptible advantages" and "approaching zero" without any numerical backing. Nothing here approaches zero, so nothing is an asymptote. The difference between the frames I've compared can't be equated or rounded to zero either, since the magnitudes are considerably different.

Again - just because you don't feel them - doesn't mean other people can't, and what the graphs do is allow people to see the magnitudes and make up their own mind. The reason I explained them is because some people showed a distinct lack of understanding (eg. a constant reference to a flat leverage curve being OK with an air shock when it's really not). A basic idea doesn't equal a thorough understanding - feel free to take or leave my elaboration without writing it off as unnecessary.

Fair enough if you want to chime in with your experience - it's worth something in addition to data, but both have their place. Valid point on the damper analogy, and my apologies if I did this exact same thing in the past.

As I said, if all else is equal, this kind of thing makes one bike better than another. If the bike in question has other benefits that outweigh this minor drawback then of course it should be considered, but being clear about it means people can make up their own mind based on which factors are important to them.

Since I never actually posted the graph for the Patrol even though most of us have seen it (and since now we know it's completely accurate) here it is, credit to Antonio/Vrock as always:

I translated his own comments, and not surprisingly (although amusing to me, since I haven't read this before) he says exactly what I did:

In the graph of the Leverage Ratio see how the system is Regressive-Progressive (2.5-2.55-2.3) type. The first section is tiny and stays below the area of Sag so will not influence too, simplifying some may say that the system has a fairly soft escalation. The improvement over previous models is again huge, but when compared to the leading models in this category are made of least a little more progressive.

I'm sure you guys can understand what's being said here. It's a decent effort, it's just not the best. Get a carbon one and put a small-shaft coil shock in and you'll have a pretty good end result (carbon just to offset the coil weight, for people who care about that).

Personally I value suspension performance very highly, and I wouldn't run an air shock in one due to reasons I've explained - but others may feel differently / value other things and I respect that.

 

[Sandwich]

Good info.

Yeah I do not mind a "big" feeling bike one bit, except when jumping and if it gets nose heavy. That's usually when the reach is too long and the stack is too low. I think the E29 jumps absolutely awesome because of the tall stack actually. When descending I don't think the bike is one bit too big.

I really want to try a 29er with the 46mm offset. What I'm feeling in the front I think is the result of the 51mm offset. Very, very similar to what I notice on certain dirt bikes that come with larger offsets (wheel flop, front end push), and is usually cured/stabilized by -2mm or -3mm offset clamps. The 5mm change should be substantial. If it weren't for the steering weirdness, I'd look at other 29ers. The thing is a rocketship everywhere else on the descents.

I believe the e29 I had came with a 46mm pike. It was tough to tell from mfg specifications and I couldn't get a handle on part numbers. Measuring suggested 46. Anyways, my e29 was pretty direct without much floppiness, which I appreciated. The evil is only half a degree slacker, but the front end is significantly more wandery and floppy (tank slappy?), and I have to attribute that to the offset since the reach is very similar and the stack is even lower, which should put my weight further over the front. Unfortunately I don't think fox makes a 46mm crown for the 29er 36, so I just have to concentrate more on getting over the front end and steering with my hips, even in slow speed corners.

 

[Kanye West]

Patrol is a solid option. You can fit a huge bottle in that frame and the geometry is nice and aggressive. You'll probably want an xl though. I rode a large for about a month and it was very cramped, I sold it and bought an xl Nomad for for a really good price.

How tall are you?

 

[ianjenn]

What about Canfield Riot?

 

[Kanye West]

Silly seat angle thing again. And I don't think I'm going to mess with another 29er until I know the steering can be set up correctly. With the onset of longer travel 29ers now I think more aggressive riders will demand some sort of correction to that, whether it's offset or head angle or some combo. Think that long travel 29er concept is still a work in progress.

 

[mykel]

Foes Mixer?

 

[Mo(n)arch]

What about a Canyon Spectral or Strive? They are now accessable in America, aren't they?

 

[Dogboy]

What about a Canyon Spectral or Strive? They are now accessable in America, aren't they?

Nope, not yet.

 

[4130biker]

Interesting thread since I'm on an E29 myself. Actually a medium at 6', but I have relatively long legs. Feels awesome when it's hauling ass or even on the steeps and jumping. But I do agree with the cornering feeling... Different. It really slowed me down on the tight corners at first, but I've adapted and am back up to speed.
The thing that gets me on the more high speed corners is the traction- it doesn't want to break free where I'm used to and that part seems trickier to adapt to.

Which leaves me wondering what specialized is going to do with the Enduro platform moving forward, especially with Graves' input.

I need to ride a good 650b to see if I like the cornering better since I went straight from 26 to this..

 

[aenema]

Silly seat angle thing again. And I don't think I'm going to mess with another 29er until I know the steering can be set up correctly. With the onset of longer travel 29ers now I think more aggressive riders will demand some sort of correction to that, whether it's offset or head angle or some combo. Think that long travel 29er concept is still a work in progress.

Have you looked at the Canfield Balance then? A buddy has one arriving soon and I am excited to ride that thing.

 

[Jm_]

Interesting thread since I'm on an E29 myself. Actually a medium at 6', but I have relatively long legs. Feels awesome when it's hauling ass or even on the steeps and jumping. But I do agree with the cornering feeling... Different. It really slowed me down on the tight corners at first, but I've adapted and am back up to speed.
The thing that gets me on the more high speed corners is the traction- it doesn't want to break free where I'm used to and that part seems trickier to adapt to.

Which leaves me wondering what specialized is going to do with the Enduro platform moving forward, especially with Graves' input.

I need to ride a good 650b to see if I like the cornering better since I went straight from 26 to this..

The medium really started to cramp me on longer rides and climbs at 5'11".

I noticed while DH riding and racing that tight stuff was no problem. Medium radius turns at speed was where I bled speed, because the gyroscopic force wouldn't let me stay on the trail at that speed through the turn. I had to slow down prior, or the tires would loose traction and skip/slide to the outside of the turn no matter what I did or how I leaned.

 

[Kanye West]

I believe the e29 I had came with a 46mm pike. It was tough to tell from mfg specifications and I couldn't get a handle on part numbers. Measuring suggested 46. Anyways, my e29 was pretty direct without much floppiness, which I appreciated. The evil is only half a degree slacker, but the front end is significantly more wandery and floppy (tank slappy?), and I have to attribute that to the offset since the reach is very similar and the stack is even lower, which should put my weight further over the front. Unfortunately I don't think fox makes a 46mm crown for the 29er 36, so I just have to concentrate more on getting over the front end and steering with my hips, even in slow speed corners.

The medium really started to cramp me on longer rides and climbs at 5'11".

I noticed while DH riding and racing that tight stuff was no problem. Medium radius turns at speed was where I bled speed, because the gyroscopic force wouldn't let me stay on the trail at that speed through the turn. I had to slow down prior, or the tires would loose traction and skip/slide to the outside of the turn no matter what I did or how I leaned.

These parallel my findings of it as well in terms of cornering. I find the back end gets TONS of grip compared to the front. I'm not sure if its a gyro effect or the steering geo, or both.

Are you still riding the E29 or something else now?

 

[Jm_]

Are you still riding the E29 or something else now?

Something else. RFX, might be able to take it out soon.

 

[Kanye West]

Sounds like you haven't gotten much time on it yet. Curious how you thought the cornering and speed in the chop was coming off the 29er.

 

[Flo33]

Looking for a new wagon wheeler, flat, long

I throw in this

https://www.polebicycles.com/bicycles/enduro/evolink-140-en-29/?v=fa868488740a

I have no idea if they are shipping to US of A, but it ticks some of your boxes, especially geometry wise. On the other hand there is just a small bottle mount and maybe "stupid goddamn shock links", depends on your definition of the latter.

 

[StiHacka]

I throw in this

https://www.polebicycles.com/bicycles/enduro/evolink-140-en-29/?v=fa868488740a

I have no idea if they are shipping to US of A, but it ticks some of your boxes, especially geometry wise. On the other hand there is just a small bottle mount and maybe "stupid goddamn shock links", depends on your definition of the latter.

Another benefit, it haz virtual leverage ratios.

 

[Flo33]

Another benefit, it haz virtual leverage ratios.

Beside appropriate jokes, they are not so wrong. They meant wheel rate with an air shock. The lev rate is prog-reg and in combo with a prog air shock you get their "virtual magical super uber mega rate".

Hope I didn't tell complete BS...

 

[StiHacka]

Virtual leverage ratio should also result in virtual wheel path, virtual pedaling efficiency and virtual bottom outs.

The LR does not change with progressive springs, the forces do.

 

[rollertoaster]

How tall are you?

6'2"

 

[Flo33]

Virtual leverage ratio should also result in virtual wheel path, virtual pedaling efficiency and virtual bottom outs.

The LR does not change with progressive springs, the forces do.

I'm busted

 

[yd35]

Udi vs. Kidwoo:

 

[shirk007]

2015 Patrol
http://linkagedesign.blogspot.ca/2014/08/transition-patrol-275-2015.html

2017 Patrol
http://linkagedesign.blogspot.ca/2016/07/transition-patrol-275-2017.html

Did Transition make changes to the frame to alter the leverage curve?

The 2017 curve looks more like what Woo described...no funky digressive feel in the early travel....hmmm can the almighty alter of Linkage be wrong??? Or did Transition change the frame?

 

[Kanye West]

Wonder if it's backwards compatible. Although I think it's for these stupid new "metric" shocks. Because standards make EVERYONE'S lives easier....every time.

 

[shirk007]

Wonder if it's backwards compatible. Although I think it's for these stupid new "metric" shocks. Because standards make EVERYONE'S lives easier....every time.

I guess I should have actually read the horrible Spanish to English translation. I missed that this was using the longer metric shock. Stopped reading the text on the site ages ago.

My bad.

 

[kazlx]

Skipping charts, posting a Spitty in XL that seems to be a pretty decent deal. I have one in L. I like how it rides, but probably don't have sufficient charts to back up my claims.

http://www.jensonusa.com/Banshee-Spitfire-GX-Jenson-Bike-2016

 

[Udi]

Did Transition make changes to the frame to alter the leverage curve?
The 2017 curve looks more like what Woo described...no funky digressive feel in the early travel....hmmm can the almighty alter of Linkage be wrong??? Or did Transition change the frame?

I noticed this change too, and it's significant.
For what it's worth - it's still not perfect (the flat LR gradient is where the air spring curve generally has anything but a flat gradient) - but it should be noticeably better than the previous version IF this is an actual change.

It'd be funny to hear which one of those is the correct answer (I have a sneaking suspicion they changed - and improved - the frame). Perhaps @Vrock can comment on this since he probably drew both bikes.

It would be hilarious if after all the BS that got spewed on me about how this part of the curve didn't matter; the company went and changed that PRECISE part of the curve.

Anyway, good on them if they did - luckily for everyone else, kidwoo's incorrect opinions don't change physics. If we all settled for "good enough" then nothing would progress.

 

[Kanye West]

If we all settled for "good enough" then nothing would progress.

If we all settled for "good enough", then we might as well be Canadian...

Since that discussion happened ~6 months ago, I'd expect that this change was in the works a while before that. Could be wrong though.

I'd like to try it back-to-back, but it seems like it necessitates a different rear shock, which bites.