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New Fox forks

Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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Sleazattle
kidwoo said:
chicken........ egg

No bike maker is going to order a fork UNTIL fox says it exists. Fox takes the first step in that one.

I guess the wheel thing is a little different. I can fully see fox/specialized thinking they need to make a 15mm axle fork because getting a 20mm hub costs 0.025c more. After watching this system just go through 12 different BB standards, 9 new hub standards, 11 new headset standards and completely inventing a new wheel size..........that's still a completely bullshit argument though wouldn't you say? If they can convince a dentist on wednesday to buy it for saturday, they'd make it.

They need to just go 22mm. Because going back to 20 would be admitting a mistake, which at this point, is the only reason I can think they've dug in so hard.
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As someone who has been a product manager for an OEM customer base (not bikes), you propose new ideas and technologies with your OEMs, but you largely listen to what they want to drive the direction of your development, even if it doesn't always make sense. It is rare for anything to make it to market without a commitment to buy from your OEM. Sometimes the OEM product manager will do detailed market research, sometimes they just go with their guts. They will always play two or more suppliers against each other to get the lowest cost possible. Either way, their are usually a fair number of people who know what the best technical solution is, but it doesn't always come to fruition.
 
Westy

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
55,943
21,973
Sleazattle
kidwoo said:
remember the pinto

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The PT Cruiser was Chrysler's attempt to capture the youth market and develop brand loyalty with the people who would have disposable income in 10 years. The prototypes scored well with young people, then someone had the idea to water the design down a little bit to broaden the market appeal. In the end it only cornered the empty nest sassy fat Midwest wife market as no new college grad wanted to be seen in the same car their mothers just bought.
 
djjohnr

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,109
1,799
Northern California
I thought about testing 15mm on my 36 when I had one of the convertible ones, but the fact that I had a perfectly good 20mm hub and lazyiness prevented me from doing anything about it.
 
englertracing

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,657
1,143
La Verne
Westy said:
The PT Cruiser was Chrysler's attempt to capture the youth market and develop brand loyalty with the people who would have disposable income in 10 years. The prototypes scored well with young people, then someone had the idea to water the design down a little bit to broaden the market appeal. In the end it only cornered the empty nest sassy fat Midwest wife market as no new college grad wanted to be seen in the same car their mothers just bought.
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this checks out,
every pt cruiser owner I knew was a 40+ mom
 
Electric_City

Electric_City

Torture wrench
Apr 14, 2007
2,047
783
Jm_ said:
I always call bullsh*t on that. 20mm vs 15mm axle doesn't make any significant difference in the world of 1.5 steerers with massive crowns connected to 38mm stanchions and massive once-piece lowers. It makes you "feel good" and yeah, changing the standard was dumb, but it doesn't add any significant strength/stiffness to the fork, that's done by all those other features.

Yeah, back in the 2000s when we had bolt on brake arches and then dumbass cyrofit "M" arches, likely significant given the QR alternative. I ran more than a couple QR DC forks, with BMX axles much of the time, vastly stiffer than the SC forks. Could have been better with a TA?, sure, but I highly doubt 15 vs. 20mm would have made any difference. As long as there is a decent size TA to provide the connection opposite to the brake arch and crown, it doesn't matter if it's 15, 18 20, IME.

I guess what I'm saying is if I was shopping for a stiff fork, there are things that I'd prioritize a lot more, like stanchion size, fore-aft stiffness, because the 15 vs. 20 simply doesn't make much difference.

If you want to fight it just on principle, because "changing standards", well then more power to you.
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That's why I stuck with my Salsa tye dye 9mm QR's on my Jr. T. It doesn't make a difference.
 
M

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
1,774
532
kidwoo said:
chicken........ egg

No bike maker is going to order a fork UNTIL fox says it exists. Fox takes the first step in that one.
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It's called pre-lining.
Fox makes a (production) casting mold once they know the volume is there to amortize the fixed cost.

A billion different standards of CNC'd products are different because they are just a design file away.
This way the only (real) cost borne by all the SKU-explosion is the consumer and store
Which is clearly the intent on creating a million different standards in the first place.
Forced obsolescence and a reduction in cross-compatibility.
 
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Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,062
10,626
AK
Electric_City said:
That's why I stuck with my Salsa tye dye 9mm QR's on my Jr. T. It doesn't make a difference.
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Come to think of it, I did super T/Jr T 20mm and QR, also did back to back Marzocchi Z1 (2005-ish?) one piece lowers, qr and then 20mm (changed an AM1 to a ZAM1). I do remember on the Z1 20mm being better...not massively. I think I was too used to DC forks...plus the AM1 was after the shiver SC.
 
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toodles

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,824
5,201
Australia
kidwoo said:
You know there are forks you can switch between 15 and 20mm axles right? Some of us have done that.

Same fork, same bike, same wheels. Forks with 20mm axles twist less. That's cool you don't notice it. But it's a thing.
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I thought zee Germans already found hub/lower interface was moar important?

HAB said:
a version of the 36 that had a 20mm axle with inserts that you could install to use a 15mm axle with. Literally the same fork. There are at least four people in this thread who've tried both.
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It wasn't the inserts that were the problem was it? Just throwing it out there.

Can you still mod the 40 travel down? Cos if you can what was the problem again?
 
HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,589
2,021
Seattle
Fox doesn't officially support lowering the 40, but you can cut the air shaft down if you really want to go that route.

1586893721680.png
 
HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,589
2,021
Seattle
slimshady said:
How about a Bartlett?
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I'm glad those exist, and good on MRP for making them. But IIRC, they use the lowers off their single crown, making for very narrow stanchion spacing and therefore turning radius. It's a non-issue on the 40, but if it was a lot tighter, it would be. The offset is also way too high. Now, that's also true of the 40, but at least you can cobble something together there. I'm running a 26" one with 27.5" wheels on purpose to that end, and have the Mojo offset crowns on it to boot.

Again, it's cool that MRP is out on a limb making those. I just want to see one of the big players get into the enduro dual crown game because they're not going to take off until that happens.
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,636
26,882
media blackout
HAB said:
I just want to see one of the big players get into the enduro dual crown game because they're not going to take off until that happens.
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is there enough of a market to really support that product type without cannibalizing other products (ie 38 and 40)? i think the challenge is being able to offer that product at both a weight that's competitive and a price people are willing to pay.
 
maxyedor

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,141
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
The issue is not that 15mm won't work, it's exactly what JohnyKranked said, they went through all this trouble to design the ultimate beefcake singlecrown, and then chose to use the same axle standard as freakin' road bikes instead of the one from their DH fork. If they killed 20mm for DH, we'd be having a different discussion, but they kept it for a reason.

The torsional rigidity held keep the fork legs parallel to each other, which is why they're running the floating axle in the first place. As an added benefit it keeps your wheel pointed where you intend, sure not everybody notices that, but it's a real issue that really does exist. I'd happily give up some fore/aft flex in exchange for less torsional flex. I'd give up all of the suppleness they're trying to achieve by keeping the legs parallel with a floating axle for more steering precision. Will the 38 feel vague? Dunno, but no 15mm TA fork has felt as good going through rocks and ruts as a comparable 20mm fork. Even riding a 27.5 36 with a 15mm TA there was a noticeable amount of flex compared to me previous 29" 36 with the 20mm axle, same i9 wheelset, handlebars and stem on both bikes, it was the axle.


This is a fork targeted at the freeride/park/big mountain/e-bike crowd, a crowd that's already using 20mm axles on their dual crown forks and previous gen 36s. Specialized is going to buy a shitload of these to spec on their Kenevo e-bike, a bike that currently comes with a Boxxer, so somehow they've managed to scrounge up some 20mm OEM grade hubs, I'd be willing to bet they could find more. Probably from the same source all the manufacturers buy OEM wheels for the DH bikes from. Sure dedicated 20mm precludes an OEM from offering both a Lyrik and a 38 in their line-up with the same wheelset, but the previous generation 36 solved that problem, and could have easily been made into a floating axle just like the 38's 15mm.

Say what you will about torque caps and RS's 30mm toothed axle interface from the RS1, those forewent existing accepted standards to try and do something better and more torsionaly rigid. This is foregoing an existing, widely accepted, standard for an inferior one.
 
HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,589
2,021
Seattle
jonKranked said:
is there enough of a market to really support that product type without cannibalizing other products (ie 38 and 40)? i think the challenge is being able to offer that product at both a weight that's competitive and a price people are willing to pay.
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Probably not, we're just talking about what I want here.
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

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Aug 25, 2003
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slimshady said:
But mark my words, the hell will freeze before you get @kidwoo to admit there is a possible explanation which diverges from his own beliefs!
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Yeah because I'm still riding rim brakes and hardtails because I just hate everything new.

Don't make me come down there.


I've never actually ridden the torque cap setups. I got tired of rockshox durability stuff long ago. Besides, are torque caps available on this 38? No. So suck it.
 
djjohnr

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,109
1,799
Northern California
HAB said:
I'm glad those exist, and good on MRP for making them. But IIRC, they use the lowers off their single crown, making for very narrow stanchion spacing and therefore turning radius. It's a non-issue on the 40, but if it was a lot tighter, it would be. The offset is also way too high. Now, that's also true of the 40, but at least you can cobble something together there. I'm running a 26" one with 27.5" wheels on purpose to that end, and have the Mojo offset crowns on it to boot.

Again, it's cool that MRP is out on a limb making those. I just want to see one of the big players get into the enduro dual crown game because they're not going to take off until that happens.
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Boxxer can be lowered to 180mm and uses 20mm through axles.
 
HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,589
2,021
Seattle
djjohnr said:
Boxxer can be lowered to 180mm and uses 20mm through axles.
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Better offset than the 40 too!

The new ones work really well. I just haven't had one long term to have any idea about service intervals, which have not been their strong suit historically.

I know there are options. I just think there's room for someone to make a less burly dual crown, maybe 180 max travel that kinda splits the difference between actual DH forks and stuff like the 38 in terms of weight.
 
mtg

mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,862
1,604
Denver, CO
kidwoo said:
Well they didn't beef that up either. See the lowers on the 40? They should have just done that.

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You're probably barking up the wrong tree. Blame that one on people that demand the tool free front axle on single crown forks.
You'll probably remember this one, but back in 2010, they had the 40 style axle system on the 36, but it had quick release levers in place of the pinch bolts. It was still tool free, but clamped onto the axle on both sides. I removed the quick releases on mine and replaced them with pinch bolts.
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

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Aug 25, 2003
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mtg said:
You're probably barking up the wrong tree.
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I literally hate and critizice everyone, industry and consumer alike. So that's impossible. :D

mtg said:
You'll probably remember this one, but back in 2010, they had the 40 style axle system on the 36, but it had quick release levers in place of the pinch bolts. It was still tool free, but clamped onto the axle on both sides. I removed the quick releases on mine and replaced them with pinch bolts.
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That exact configuration is sitting a box right now with my megatrail seatstays which I just switched out sunday.

Completely unintentionally, I bought a 2015 36 that uses that same casting. And I dun that too.

So yeah, like you said "tool free 20mm" was also already covered. But derpaderpderp
 
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HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,589
2,021
Seattle
My favorite part of all that is the progression. They had the bolt on 20mm axle that was great, but people wanted a QR. So they made a QR version, but people complained that it was too heavy, so they made a shitter QR system that got rid of the floating functionality that made the original system so good, but was lighter. And then they made a bolt on version of that shittier QR system, because it was lighter, and sold that as an upgrade.
 
kidwoo

kidwoo

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Aug 25, 2003
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HAB said:
My favorite part of all that is the progression. They had the bolt on 20mm axle that was great, but people wanted a QR. So they made a QR version, but people complained that it was too heavy, so they made a shitter QR system that got rid of the floating functionality that made the original system so good, but was lighter. And then they made a bolt on version of that shittier QR system, because it was lighter, and sold that as an upgrade.
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And in the middle of it: hey I think no one ever anywhere asked for a smaller diameter bolt that's not even lighter. Let's do that!
 
HAB

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,589
2,021
Seattle
This is all kinda like what happened to a local trail. It was unsanctioned, and rad. On my shortlist for best trail in the state. Then the local bike organization decided to incorporate it into the official trail network, and in doing so dumbed it down a bunch. If I'm being honest, the new version of the trail is still pretty fun, and if they'd just built that trail out of nothing, I'd be happy enough with it. But because they took something awesome and made it worse, I'm mad about it. Even if the end result isn't bad at all, viewed in a vacuum.

On the plus side, some absolute legend made a bunch of stickers with said trail organization's flag flying from a steamroller, and put one on the sign at the start of the trail. So at least I got to giggle about that.
 
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