OK guys... I just sold my DH9 and i'm looking for a new frame for DH. Ideally i've decided i want a 45.5" wheelbase, no less than 66 headangle, and a weight of 11 pounds. The 4 frames that fit my criteria are the 223, Turner DHR, Commencial Supreme and the Sunday factory- but, based on my experience with the distributers, it's down to the 223 or the DHR. From my riding experience, the 223 feels a lot harsher than it is, and it's on the longer side (46" wheelbase with 7" forks, and i'm running 8" 40s). From the parts i have, i will also need a new hub and wheelbuild+spokes (roughly $500) bringing the cost to ~$3k aud. I'm weary of spares and support declining now that the 224 is out too, and plus the noisyness is disturbing. On the other hand, the DHR is pretty much my ideal geometry, and they feel really good. From the parts i have, the only thing i need is a headset, bringing the cost to ~$3300 AUD. From friend's experience the support is excellent, but again, the model looks like it will be superceded. Just so you know, i have been known to plow a lot of stuff, but at the moment i really like my current bike (Yeti 4X) because it's so easy to throw around and pop off stuff- thats the feel i want to try and replicate on my DH bike, which is why the Turner seems to be a better option IMO. I'm also heavy and i ride pretty hard. Just so you know, my spec's for either frame: 05/6 Fox 40Rs, either King or FSA Orbit headset, Thomson post, Holzfeller cranks and FSA ti bb, MRP system3, Sram X9/X0, Hadley's on DT FR 6.1's, Juicy 7s, Protapers etc... Most of it is new too... Ideally, I want to know the exact weight of a Medium DHR and axle (I know the orange is just over 8 pounds frame and shock). Next, what does the turner have that the Orange doesn't- why should i pay more for the turner?