[ALEXIS_DH]

What I don't get is a few things. I don't get....
1) How many of the 37 kids killed today in Qana were terrorists

2) How is it that who gets designated a terrorist changes as the political landscape shifts

3) How there is no real plan to defeat terrorism beyond "kill them all". I mean that's nice for pithy frotherisms but has about as much use as most of the crap spewing forth from the rabid right.

4) How we allow our political leaders to lie outright about the risks, causes and effects of terrorism.

5) How the link between poor living standards and instability seems to escape the hawks busy planning the next little adventure

6) How we fail to realise supporting some little thug today because of expediency, might come back to bite us on the arse tomorrow. The lack of long term thinking in combatting terrorism is staggering.

are you suggesting that "terrorism" is such a formidable tool that no matter what you do, besides caving in, anything you do is pointless??

ok, lets think for a minute that is the case, and that today actions should be based on that.
then what prevents further actions, the mere word of the players with no further repercussions?
what is the incentive for any group who want to make a point, for not using terrorism as a tool? what deterrance there is for NOT using it?
what warranties you have about that?, after all, present inaction would turn "terrorism" or guerrilla tactics into the 21th century equivalent of a ICBM in wwii in terms of effectiveness.

now, how is that for "failing to realize" something "might come back to bite us on the arse tomorrow." and that "the lack of long term thinking in combatting terrorism is staggering".

 

[valve bouncer]

can you make any retorts without the use of frother expression?

its amusing how lefties such as you have this smug, condescending perspective of anyone that disagrees with them (edit anyone from teh right), and feels the need to hurl disparaging labels to make yourself feel better.

Will you grow a pair. This is the PAWNed forum. I got challenged to a death cage match here a while back. It's a blood sport in here sometimes, frother is mild in comparison to what we get sometimes. The irony is not lost on me regarding you posting this either with some of your less than complimentary descriptions of black people in past threads. Make ya bed and lie in it mate. I give it and I take it. Don't be so fragile.

 

[ChrisRobin]

So I was watching CNN briefly as I was getting ready for work and at the UN, a Lebonese representative was asking for Israel to stop bombing because it was killing civilians. In response the Israeli representative told the Lebonese people that they should blame the Hezbollah for the fact that they're being bombed and that they're the victims of 'terrorism.'

BS.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

So I was watching CNN briefly as I was getting ready for work and at the UN, a Lebonese representative was asking for Israel to stop bombing because it was killing civilians. In response the Israeli representative told the Lebonese people that they should blame the Hezbollah for the fact that they're being bombed and that they're the victims of 'terrorism.'

BS.

ok, what deterrance tactic whould israel use against hezbollah??
the "i dont know what, but not this" answer is not really an option. and be realistic, dont expect "israel should send 300k soldiers knocking door for door and asking everybody is they are from hezbollah or not, waiting to be shot first from a clear target and making sure nobody is within 200 yards before returning fire, getting 10k casualities by booby traps in doors and suicide dogs".

i mean, assuming you agree that something needs to be made.

 

[valve bouncer]

are you suggesting that "terrorism" is such a formidable tool that no matter what you do, besides caving in, anything you do is pointless??

ok, lets think for a minute that is the case, and that today actions should be based on that.
then what prevents further actions, the mere word of the players with no further repercussions?
what is the incentive for any group who want to make a point, for not using terrorism as a tool? what deterrance there is for NOT using it?
what warranties you have about that?, after all, present inaction would turn "terrorism" or guerrilla tactics into the 21th century equivalent of a ICBM in wwii in terms of effectiveness.

now, how is that for "failing to realize" something "might come back to bite us on the arse tomorrow." and that "the lack of long term thinking in combatting terrorism is staggering".

Well Alexis, anyone who thinks terrorism isn't an effective tool is kidding themselves. If it didn't work so well we wouldn't have as much as a problem. I'm talking about the idea of getting to a point where we stop creating terrorists from our own short sighted actions. Taking your own country as an example do you think the Shining Path would have been able to become so powerful if the distribution of wealth in Peru was more equitable?
My point is, we could be doing things that we're not doing now. One of those things might be gazing inwards and asking what we're doing to create the situation instead of just sticking our heads in the sand and saying "us good, them bad".

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Well Alexis, anyone who thinks terrorism isn't an effective tool is kidding themselves. If it didn't work so well we wouldn't have as much as a problem. I'm talking about the idea of getting to a point where we stop creating terrorists from our own short sighted actions.

it is effective. that is exactly the problem.
it needs to be reduced to "non-effective" in order to prevent it from being used again and again. and it can´t while the legal framework around it stays as today.

Taking your own country as an example do you think the Shining Path would have been able to become so powerful if the distribution of wealth in Peru was more equitable?

it probably wouldnt, but the whole terrorism as a new icbm isnt uniquely related to the initial objective.

you need to separate the tactics from the strategical objective.
terrorism as a tactical tool works wonders (because of the inablity and imposibility of fighting it back within present legal borders), but that doesnt mean, as a tactic, its use is exclusive to "worthy" causes.

you see, in the peruvian case, we could argue maybe better wealth distribuition could have helped, although that is quite debatable based on the example of the cuban revolution and other failed revolutions. but that doesnt mean every time terrorism has been used, or could be used will be in the name of a "worthy" cause.

the point is, you wont always have a "worthy" cause (asuming you could say is worthy to begin with). you could use terrorism for whatever you want, since its application is unrelated to the cause.

terrorism could become the new invincible weapon, many times more powerful, because its at the reach of virtually anyone in the world, unlike WMD.

My point is, we could be doing things that we're not doing now. One of those things might be gazing inwards and asking what we're doing to create the situation instead of just sticking our heads in the sand and saying "us good, them bad".

yes you could. eveything can be improved.
but resorting to dismiss an answer, based on a comparison of this against a theoretically perferct sollution isnt really fair.
solutions are to be picked from what is available in reality, and meassured against that frame of reference.

there is no need to say "us good, them bad". thats too romantic to be realistic.
you could say so for PR and rallying public support, but honestly, there is no real need for that mesianic self-centered argument.

 

[valve bouncer]

"Us good, them bad" doesn't seem to be too romantic for George Bush. It's basically the cornerstore of the war on terror.
The way we are fighting terrorists now is that they nip at us as we've done something to piss them off (often real, sometimes imagined) we fight back and the cycle repeats. A new dynamic needs to be established. It might start with us not pissing them off so much. Stop doing things like supporting corrupt regimes, funding opposition to democratically regimes we don't like, stop basing our relationships on what's in it for us but more on what we can do to help each other. Maybe start there perhaps.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

"Us good, them bad" doesn't seem to be too romantic for George Bush. It's basically the cornerstore of the war on terror.

it might be, but really there is no need for that argument to justify a war on terrorism.
i see it as nothing more than a PR tool. as a way of rallying support and raising the morale among americans, specially his political base.

The way we are fighting terrorists now is that they nip at us as we've done something to piss them off (often real, sometimes imagined) we fight back and the cycle repeats. A new dynamic needs to be established. It might start with us not pissing them off so much.

it might, but it doesnt prevent people from getting pissed because, i dont know... you eat meat, use disposable diapers, or speak japanese.

Stop doing things like supporting corrupt regimes, funding opposition to democratically regimes we don't like, stop basing our relationships on what's in it for us but more on what we can do to help each other. Maybe start there perhaps.

thats a start, no doubt about it.
but that doesnt fix the value and attractiveness of terrorism as a tool for anybody willing to make a point.
the thing is, at this point, terrorism has proved its value. the proven formula is already out there for anybody willing to take it.

now, there is a need for a way to counter it, to make a credible threat, deterrance, to whoever wants to use it.
there was MAD with the ICBMs. there needs to be a credible equivalent threat against terrorism.

 

[Greyhound]

What I don't get is a few things. I don't get....
1) How many of the 37 kids killed today in Qana were terrorists

That's a loaded question...you know that. It's a terrible thing, war. Let's not delude ourselvs into believing otherwise. Civillian casulaties happen when there is war. I don't like it, I'm sure Isreal doesn't like it, and I know the rest of the "world opinion" doesn't like it either.....but the thing is, man.....Hezbolla doesn't care. That's why they fire rockets from playgrounds, UN outposts, and apartment buildings. They're fighting dirty and Isreal is fighting as cleanly as they possibly can---which is why, if a cease fire is ever agreed upon, Hezbolla will see this as a "victory." They went up against the mighty Isreal and weren't completely ahnillated....thus, they "win" in their twisted minds. Don't you understand that this is as much a P.R. war as much as it is a bullet-war for them?......They prey on our decency as actual human beings, and pray for us to show compassion(which we do) to even the worst of terrorists and thugs. They know our democracy will allow for them to gain sympathy through the use of our own media to turn the tables against Isreal in court of public opinion.

Anybody even slightly grounded in reality would see that Hezbolla are terrorists---backed by Iran(who, incidentally are trying at this very minute, to enrich uranium to make a nuclear weapon to fire off at America or Israel) --- that have wormed their way into the Lebanese government through elections Lebanon had(they elected these people into power........they elected a known terrorist organization into their government...does that not register as being a stupid thing?) in order to eliminate Isreal from the face of the Earth while Iran continues on with it's nuclear program....unnoticed by anyone until it's too late --- they said so publicly. Iran has said so publicly......what are people missing here? Why would you NOT want to unite against that? If you can come up with a good reason for that, I'm most certainly willing to listen.

2) How is it that who gets designated a terrorist changes as the political landscape shifts

Well.....when you blow people up indiscriminately and cut off the heads of innocent men, women and children, shoot schoolchildren in the back, and call for the destruction of a country that has given more to the rest of the world than the whole Arab world combined, I think that pretty much is self-explanatory.

3) How there is no real plan to defeat terrorism beyond "kill them all". I mean that's nice for pithy frotherisms but has about as much use as most of the crap spewing forth from the rabid right.

What would you suggest? Reason with them?........Their whole point is to cause as much terror and mayhem as possible in order for the rest of the world--led by a flaccid U.N. to give them concessions and reward them for their terrorist behavior. Iran is doing the same thing---they threaten nuclear, we give them goodies. North Korea wants part of that booty.....they see Iran getting loaded up with technology and they want a piece of that pie too. Rabid right, angry left....whatever label-du-jour you want to place on it doesn't mean that it's a lie. The left is just as capable of understanding this as the right is capable of overstating it.

4) How we allow our political leaders to lie outright about the risks, causes and effects of terrorism.

I think they've been very clear all along---not my fault if nobody is willing to listen. Iran said it publicly---Isreal should be wiped off the face of the map. Do you want that to happen? Our leaders have been saying for years that these people are dangerous and need to be contained. World opinion is the only thing keeping them from being turned into a distant memory.

5) How the link between poor living standards and instability seems to escape the hawks busy planning the next little adventure

Wha? Poor living and instability is global. Not just a Middle Eastern problem.

6) How we fail to realise supporting some little thug today because of expediency, might come back to bite us on the arse tomorrow. The lack of long term thinking in combatting terrorism is staggering.

I'm not following you on this one.....who do you think we're supporting that's biting us in the arse later? You cannot long-term think terrorism in conventional manners......I mean, how do you know what insignificant mullah will start spouting militant Islam five years from now and incite a whole 'nother round of secular violence that escalates into what we have now. I would agree that post-violence damage control does nothing to further relations.......unfortunately--and I say that because I'm sure there's a contingent of Monkey's that are reading this that are not of this opinion, but Hezbolla has to be eliminated--no matter what it takes. They have to be defeated so soundly that they have no desire to ever take up arms against Isreal again.


Edit:
I meant to put this in here when I finished typing, but I forgot. It's a great article that may help some of you guys get some perspective on this. I mean, if you're not gonna listen to any of this stuff from me, maybe you'll enjoy hearing it from some of my source material.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To Win, Make Them Know They Are Defeated
By David Warren

George Friedman, the well-informed if often too-clever-by-half mind behind Stratfor, the American intelligence consultants, was told by several of his Israeli contacts to "expect some surprises". So was I by mine. And Mr Friedman has spent this last week admitting that he is, indeed, surprised. For he can make no sense of Israel's battle plan against Hezbollah. Neither can I.

It made perfect sense this time last week. It appeared the Israelis were closing all exit routes to Hezbollah, in preparation for a large invasion to wipe them out. The number of troops the Israelis had called up suggested a very large operation. They are still calling up reserves, but most of the regulars are waiting for orders. The Israeli incursion has been extremely modest (if bloody); the air war goes on and on.

A good sign, for an observer partial to Israel, is that while Syria and Iran have been calling for a ceasefire, Israel has not. The Israelis must think their air strikes are achieving something. No journalists can see inside the southern Lebanese inferno (the Israeli army does not accommodate embeds), and my own sources are second-hand. The only thing I can say with confidence, is that most of the action remains ground-to-air, from one side, and air-to-ground from the other.

One moment Prime Minister Olmert says Israel is prepared for a battle to the death, the next he starts talking about creating a border security zone only two kilometres wide -- which would be as if the Germans attacked the Maginot line, but not France.

There is speculation, still, that the Israelis are pulling a huge ruse -- exaggerating their difficulties to build Hezbollah's false confidence, before delivering the crushing blow. I can't believe this. The Israeli political class consists almost entirely of big-mouths, and you can't keep a secret among them.

Moreover, I hear alarming reports to suggest internal confusion; and worse, that Ehud Olmert is out of his depth -- thinking politically when his problem is military.

I needn't quote the phrase, "weak and stupid", from any private correspondent, for it is said often enough of their entire political class by some Israeli media. I am myself amazed, and troubled, by how many Israeli officials continue to speak as if the goal were a trade-off with Israel's mortal enemies. But the thing about mortal enemies is, there's nothing to trade but your head. Here is my horrible thought: If "liberalism" can survive under such intense conditions, as those to which Israel has been exposed for nearly sixty years, it can survive until the West is extinct.

Morale is the issue here. Always crucial in warfare, it becomes the whole object in struggling against guerrillas and terrorists.

The word "morale" shares the root of "moral", and "mores", and pertains to character and conduct. The cadres of Hezbollah genuinely believe, in their twisted 7th-century way, that they are morally superior to the Israelis, and that this is proved when the Israelis mostly bomb them, and shy from engaging them man-to-man. So their morale is actually improved by the bombing, whatever their losses. They can recruit more, they can import new weapons in the course of time. The Israelis must make them know they are defeated, and this can only be done on the ground.

Hezbollah's way of war (as that of all Islamist factions) is founded on fear, not body counts. If they are assured the Israelis fear them, they will continue to attack. They sue for peace when they believe their enemy has lost his fear -- as Hamas were doing in Gaza, where the Israelis sent in divisions. (But now Mr Olmert has pulled those forces back, so that Hamas begins to think it has won again.)

The problem, for Israel as for the West, is not just Hezbollah, or Hamas, but all future Islamist terror brigades. Every pulled punch against Hezbollah and Hamas is an inspiration to Iran, and to aspiring Muslim "martyrs" everywhere, to raise new brigades, and find new methods of instilling fear in us, until we crack and run.

That is why, for the Israelis, anything that resembles an act of appeasement or retreat -- such as withdrawing Jewish settlements -- must be forsworn. There is nothing they can do to make the Arabs like them; the strategic question is instead, "What will crush their morale?" Ditto in the larger "war against terror".

Egypt and Jordan did not come to terms with the state of Israel, in 1979, because they suddenly developed a soft spot for Zionism. They did so when they realized they couldn't budge Israel, let alone drive her into the sea. Peace came when they gave up trying.

 

[kahner89]

it is kinda funny why they have been fighting for years upon years with their nations practically completely destroyed and their people have the urge to stop and negotiate whereas the governments are just bashing away at each other. maybe they like all the attention eventhough it is negative??

 

[LordOpie]

...but the thing is, man.....Hezbolla doesn't care.

This is the absolute bottomline to the situation. As a friend once said...

The Middle East will not become a peaceful region until Arab mothers love their children more than they hate Israel.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

This is the absolute bottomline to the situation. As a friend once said...

The Middle East will not become a peaceful region until Arab mothers love their children more than they hate Israel.

you were friends with golda meier??
dang you are old.:hot:

 

[Greyhound]

you were friends with golda meier??
dang you are old.:hot:

I think we've just tapped into the untamed comedic market of Peru!!

 

[LordOpie]

you were friends with golda meier??
dang you are old.:hot:

We had a thing at the end. Passionate woman.

 

[ChrisRobin]

ok, what deterrance tactic whould israel use against hezbollah??
the "i dont know what, but not this" answer is not really an option. and be realistic, dont expect "israel should send 300k soldiers knocking door for door and asking everybody is they are from hezbollah or not, waiting to be shot first from a clear target and making sure nobody is within 200 yards before returning fire, getting 10k casualities by booby traps in doors and suicide dogs".

i mean, assuming you agree that something needs to be made.

I know what you're saying...and yea, I don't know what the answer is but it can't be this. My problem is I just didn't like the justification or the rationale of this Israeli rep. It's like saying: "Well, 9/11 happened because of the US's bad foreign policies and influence in the middle east. So, the American people should blame the US government for putting them at risk and not blame al-qaeda for crashing planes in the buildings." Of course this is wrong too. I just didn't like what this clown said on TV in front of the world.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Hummm.... Israel may not be responsible for the Qana deaths...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744426.html

There is an unexplained gap of about seven hours between the one Israeli air strike that hit the Qana building housing the civilians, which took place around 1 A.M. Sunday, and the first report that the building had collapsed, said the chief of staff of the Israel Air Force, Brigadier General Amir Eshel. Speaking at a press conference at the Kirya military complex in Tel Aviv last night, Eshel said that of three Israeli air strikes on Qana early Sunday, only the first strike hit the building in which the civilians were staying. The other two hit areas at least 400 meters away.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Here's what militant islam has in store for you liberals when they take over:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

On 15 August, 2004, Atefah Sahaaleh, 16, was hanged in a public square in the Iranian city of Neka.

Her death sentence was imposed for "crimes against chastity".

 

[DaveW]

guess that must be why you lot have brought militant islam to Iraq and Somalia..........

Lebanon next up.

Bravo old chap.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Isreal is a bunch of thugs, who are completely out of line. They are terrorists fighting terrorists, (and civilians)......

They are treating it as open war. The U.S. tends to treating terrorists like a splinter... go in with a needle and cut it out. I think Isreal is saying, screw it, cut the finger in question clean off... I'm not saying its right, but they are surely going at it differently than we would... or at least we'd make it look like we were trying to avoic civilian life.

 

[Echo]

So after watching the vaunted US military juggernaut get handed its ass by a few ragtag gangs with inferior equipment in Iraq, the Israelis decided they want a piece of that action?

 

[SDH]

Uh, no.

3'rd millennium BC : The Canaanites were the earliest known inhabitants of Palestine. They became urbanized and lived in city-states, one of which was Jericho . They developed an alphabet. Palestine's location at the center of routes linking three continents made it the meeting place for religious and cultural influences from Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Asia Minor. It was also the natural battleground for the great powers of the region and subject to domination by adjacent empires, beginning with Egypt in the 3d millennium BC.

Could I get the name of the books that you read..............

Stability in that area was relatively brief under the mighty Persian Empire but then fell back into turmoil once the Greeks conquered the Persians

 

[ChrisRobin]

They are treating it as open war. The U.S. tends to treating terrorists like a splinter... go in with a needle and cut it out. I think Isreal is saying, screw it, cut the finger in question clean off... I'm not saying its right, but they are surely going at it differently than we would... or at least we'd make it look like we were trying to avoic civilian life.

Doesn't make it right though...not that you're trying to defend this method.

I always thought the Israelis would be the most moderate nation since the jews almost got wiped out by the Nazis. You'd think being the victim of attempted genocide you'd adopt the mentality that there's no need for unnecessary deaths of civilians in a conflict. I guess not.

 

[N8 v2.0]

So after watching the vaunted US military juggernaut get handed its ass by a few ragtag gangs with inferior equipment in Iraq, the Israelis decided they want a piece of that action?

Boy, someone is very misinformed.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Boy, someone is very misinformed.

i thought this was kinda funny, in a cold heartless twisted way..

Let Russia Solve Iraq
By Exile.Ru 29/6/06
Jul 4, 2006, 08:03

But ever since President Putin's announcement this week that he was planning to send Russian Special Forces into Iraq on the pretext of hunting down the terrorists who killed four Russian diplomats, that snickering is transforming into something like that sound people make when they have bad stomach gas that causes those weird little mini-vomit burps and that other sound that's kind of like a throat-fart. Those are the stomach's way of saying, "Yikes."

As well those stomachs should. Because the real message Putin is sending is this: America, you've completely ****ed up everything in Iraq. You did your best, and that's fine and dandy for a nice kid like you only until someone Russian gets hurt. That's when it's time for you to step aside, and let the adults come in and fix the goddamn problem.

Yes, you heard us correctly. Russia is going to come in like a white knight, like a stern yet effect parent, and clean up li'l America's mess in the sandbox known as Iraq. Because as the only responsible adults left in the neighborhood, Russia simply has no other choice.

How will Putin fix Iraq? Simple. Unlike the Americans, Russia has a plan. And that plan is can be summed up thusly: "kill most everyone, and scare the living **** out of everyone who isn't dead." The beauty of this plan is in its simplicity.

While Americans approach the Iraq quagmire like good hard-working schoolboys, trying to solve problems with teacher-pleasing complicated coalition-building schemes and military feints, advances, and PR, the Russians have proven that by behaving like an adult and sticking to good' ol' fashioned killing or disappearing half the population, you can solve these kinds of problems.

You don't hear much about Chechnya these days, do you? Not the way you hear about Iraq, not even close. That's because out of a prewar population of 1.3 million, today Chechnya only has about 300,000 people left. That's just the number to the right of the dot in 1.3. If I was one of the guys on the right side of that decimal, I'd be pretty quite too, for a long, long time.

"Hey, what about human rights?" we can hear you squeal.

That's an excellent point and a fine question. To which Russia is ready to answer with its own question: "What about your ****ing gas, huh? Do you still want it? Huh?"

Then the West'll go, "No, wait-wait-wait, we didn't - we just meant, you know, we're concerned, but it's not like, heh-heh, you know?"

"No, we don't know," says Russia. Then Russia gets all Joe Pesci like and goes, "You said 'human rights.' You said it, you mother****er. What the **** is so human rights-y about your country without natural gas, huh? What the ****, please enlighten me, you ****! I've got my finger on the ****ing off switch at Transneft. Just bleat one more ****ing time, you ****, and I swear I'll turn it off!"

"Yeah, yeah, we're done, we swear!"

"Good, now get the **** out of my face. You mother****ing mutt."

And with that, the Russian Special Forces will enter Iraq. And the Americans will step aside with all their little "coalition" playfriends. And when the Russians are through cleaning up the mess, and they drive America home in its stationwagon back from occupation practice, we guarantee that in the new Russia-controlled occupied-Iraq, every Iraqi who survives will be a very light sleeper for the rest of his or her life.

That's the key to building consensus and democracy. Turning the population into light sleepers. It worked in Chechnya. It'll work again in Iraq.

 

[blue]

And like Afghanistan...yay Russia!

 

[Changleen]

Still.... Easy tiger.

That kinda posting does tend to have an annoying flow on effect thru the rest of the thread.

Think of it as an interlude.

 

[ohio]

3'rd millennium BC

So what you're saying is that
a) a war every 25-50 years = "constant,"
b) wars waged on the middle east by European empires (Greeks, Romans, Catholicism) are the Middle East's fault, AND
c) the middle east is a single entity.

By your definition:
1) The US has been at war since it's birth as a nation
2) The western world (Europe) has been at war for 2000 years
3) East asia has been at war for ~5000 years

Awfully profound of you, SDH.

 

[Changleen]

Don't be an ass. Disagree with the guy if you'd like, but since this isn't a black-and-white, clear-cut issue, people's opinions will differ from yours, so petty name calling is just that.

Thank you very much ,sir. Doesn't bother me. Maybe he would find himself better occupied chasing down these guys in his homeland: http://www.police.govt.nz/service/counterterrorism/designated-terrorists.html

Do both of you actually have any idea that most of the rest of the world basically thinks that this war is totally unjustified and that Israel especially, and the US and the UK are acting like utter cocks here? Do you understand that? Do you see what that says about your laissez-faire desires for escalation? Every country is calling for an immediate ceasfire except the UK, the US and Israel

There has now been 3 weeks of US and UK facilitation of non-work towards a ceasefire seen plainly by the rest of the world.

Greyhound - you especially are basically pushing an extremist agenda far more deadly and provocative than that of your enemy, an agenda that (I don't know how you can't see this) has, and will increasingly cause hatred of the west in moderate Islamic populations, to a degree that over the last ten years it has produced an ever growing strata of Arabs of every stripe who are willing to die to push back against you. You don't seem to understand can't ever 'defeat' that entire sector of the world population.

As it stands at the moment,

http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm

You still stand there and advocate escalation? Your childish dream that you can end a movement like Hezbollah using the tactics you demand is at odds with all available evidence. For some reason you are having a great difficulty understanding that whilst a solution to the underlying problem must be found, your suggestion is a crap one, but thank you very much for participating.

 

[rockwool]

The way we are fighting terrorists now is that they nip at us as we've done something to piss them off (often real, sometimes imagined) we fight back and the cycle repeats. A new dynamic needs to be established. It might start with us not pissing them off so much. Stop doing things like supporting corrupt regimes, funding opposition to democratically regimes we don't like, stop basing our relationships on what's in it for us but more on what we can do to help each other. Maybe start there perhaps.

it might, but it doesnt prevent people from getting pissed because, i dont know... you eat meat, use disposable diapers, or speak japanese.

thats a start, no doubt about it.
but that doesnt fix the value and attractiveness of terrorism as a tool for anybody willing to make a point.
the thing is, at this point, terrorism has proved its value. the proven formula is already out there for anybody willing to take it.

now, there is a need for a way to counter it, to make a credible threat, deterrance, to whoever wants to use it.
there was MAD with the ICBMs. there needs to be a credible equivalent threat against terrorism.

How distant from some (poor) peoples reality must you Alexis be to compare their struggle for a normal life, free from hunger and oppression from the rich and powerful, free from simple diseases that can be cured if only the rich doctors would mind going to the ghettos to do their work, a life where education and hope for better future is availible to everybody and not just the middle and upper classes.
They want their basic human rights fulfilled, they don't care about your diapers..

Still the sickest part is not your lack of empathy and understanding of the starving but that you want their claims for life in dignity to be beaten down! Valve Bouncer gave some perfect examples to why there are uprisings in places like Latin America but the problem as you saw it was the actual complaints of the poor, not that they actually live lives not worthy of humans!!

"we have to make a deterrance to whom ever shouts for food and medicine, bomb them to submission" -great filanthropist 2006 A.D.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Do both of you actually have any idea that most of the rest of the world basically thinks that this war is totally unjustified and that Israel especially, and the US and the UK are acting like utter cocks here? Do you understand that? Do you see what that says about your laissez-faire desires for escalation? Every country is calling for an immediate ceasfire except the UK, the US and Israel

There has now been 3 weeks of US and UK facilitation of non-work towards a ceasefire seen plainly by the rest of the world.

Greyhound - you especially are basically pushing an extremist agenda far more deadly and provocative than that of your enemy, an agenda that (I don't know how you can't see this) has, and will increasingly cause hatred of the west in moderate Islamic populations, to a degree that over the last ten years it has produced an ever growing strata of Arabs of every stripe who are willing to die to push back against you. You don't seem to understand can't ever 'defeat' that entire sector of the world population.

As it stands at the moment,

http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm

You still stand there and advocate escalation? Your childish dream that you can end a movement like Hezbollah using the tactics you demand is at odds with all available evidence. For some reason you are having a great difficulty understanding that whilst a solution to the underlying problem must be found, your suggestion is a crap one, but thank you very much for participating.

let think for a minute about a cease fire. lets concentrate on what is happening right now, as what has happened already is not something we can change.

do you think it will help for the lont run??
what would happen at this point if a cease fire is agreed? hezbollah re-arming, and using the time to lay down some smack on israel afterwards as always?.

i think right now the ball is rolling, and it should roll until the end.
this is the kinda of things when stopping the rolling ball would be worse than letting it go. (whetever it was a good thing to start or not, is a different matter).

i believe a cease fire should come ONLY when either (there is not enough hezbollah left to fight) or there is enough fear of retaliation (not necesarily for themselves) that peace will ensue.

whether either one of them is a childish dream, well, as long as they arent no more childish than dreaming an inmediate cease fire wont contribute to a hezbollah re-arming, it isnt so bad.

 

[Echo]

i believe a cease fire should come ONLY when either (there is not enough hezbollah left to fight) or there is enough fear of retaliation (not necesarily for themselves) that peace will ensue.

Well that strategy sure seems to be a winner in Iraq. What's it been, 3 years since we "won"? How many times have we "crippled the insurgency" now?

 

[Silver]

Well that strategy sure seems to be a winner in Iraq. What's it been, 3 years since we "won"? How many times have we "crippled the insurgency" now?

Defeatist. Cheney clearly said we were witnessing the last throes of the insurgency.

He was right, of course. It's more a civil war now...

 

[Echo]

Defeatist. Cheney clearly said we were witnessing the last throes of the insurgency.

He was right, of course. It's more a civil war now...

I wonder how much they pay the asshats who come up with those moronic statements? That has to be a killer job. "Mission Accomplished!" "Last throes of the insurgency" "a landmark moment for the Iraqi people" "a giant step forward in the war against terrorism"

 

[rbx]

This is the absolute bottomline to the situation. As a friend once said...

The Middle East will not become a peaceful region until Arab mothers love their children more than they hate Israel.

Lets see my mother is arabic(lebanese) and i am pretty sure she loves way more then israel,honestly thats one of the most ignorant statements i ever read on this board LordOpie

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Well that strategy sure seems to be a winner in Iraq. What's it been, 3 years since we "won"? How many times have we "crippled the insurgency" now?

well, the iraq war was doomed from the begining...
israel doesnt need to switch governments... just to hit hard enough that hezbollah wont mess with them again, until a cease fire doesnt come from negotiation, but from necesity.
worked with jordan and egypt.

one thing is to go in, invade stay and change governments.
and another hitting hard enough so there is a credible deterrent next time somebody wants to hit you.

 

[LordOpie]

Lets see my mother is arabic(lebanese) and i am pretty sure she loves way more then israel,honestly thats one of the most ignorant statements i ever read on this board LordOpie

how's it ignorant.

Would your mother let you be a terrorist? No. Why? Cuz she loves you more than she hates others.

when love is greater than hate, all things are possible.

 

[blue]

how's it ignorant.

Would your mother let you be a terrorist? No. Why? Cuz she loves you more than she hates others.

when love is greater than hate, all things are possible.

Awwww...

 

[LordOpie]

Awwww...

damned commie, war-loving bastard.

Reagan should've euthanized you when you were a baby.


PS: that's some 1337 html skillz you roll with

 

[ChrisRobin]

how's it ignorant.

Would your mother let you be a terrorist? No. Why? Cuz she loves you more than she hates others.

You can always not tell her... kinda like getting a tattoo without her knowing.

Seriously though, it's a belief system. An Arab woman might lover her child more than hating another people but she can still understand why her son wants to become a terrorist, or join the ranks of a terrorist organization.

edit. It's not like the child will go to his parents and say "Yeah! I want to be a terrorist and blow up random ****", it must be more like "Mother, I want to join (insert organization) in order to defend our land"

 

[SDH]

So what you're saying is that
a) a war every 25-50 years = "constant,"
b) wars waged on the middle east by European empires (Greeks, Romans, Catholicism) are the Middle East's fault, AND
c) the middle east is a single entity.

By your definition:
1) The US has been at war since it's birth as a nation
2) The western world (Europe) has been at war for 2000 years
3) East asia has been at war for ~5000 years

Awfully profound of you, SDH.

No, read the clip. It is amazing how you bridge a gap that leads to the Europeans waging war on the area. The clip was talking about a time frame of 3000 BC. Due to its strategic location (sitting in the middle of a trade route) that area has seen constant warfare for ages.........way before Europe even set foot in the area. Many of the wars have been religious or ethnic based so they have a rich history of fighting wars over religion and ethnic background. The Jews were in the middle of it from day one (actually 1400BC). Google "history of Acient Plaestine" Read..............Interestingly enough nothing has really changed in that region for 1000s of years.