[ska todd]

So, World Cups and mini-World Cups Mickey? They might as well do away with all of those 5 & 10k running events and only have marathons. Or do away with Cat 3/4/5 on the road and you start out racing for 60 or 90 miles or multi day stage races.

I don't mind playing devil's advocate but you just jumped into the world of the wacky there. Tone back on the coffee my friend. Maybe it's time for decaf

(But, a certain part of me does agree that perhaps if there were just one course requiring a certain level of technical aptitude, perhaps with "options", this would help sort out the categories better as well as help develop faster juniors and U23's)

-ska todd

 

[Transcend]

I've always been an elitist douche, I try to make that clear.

All the brohams want DH to be Supercross right?


When was the last time you saw an amateur Supercross race?

This is why there is world cups which now require 20 impossible to acquire UCI points to race in. You need a breeder series. This is why there is the lights class and plenty of amateur MX races the world over. Amateur MX racing is huge, much larger than amateur MTB racing in the US, that's for sure.

Really, you need to think a bit more before making those comparisons.

 

[IH8Rice]

I don't understand the logic behind having DH racing for beginner-intermediate level riders, quite frankly.

Downhill as a recreational activity now exists outside of the purview of race courses. This isn't the 90's any more. There is no need to cater to recreational riders or less skilled or less fit riders at race events. If a rider can not perform at a level where they can ride an elite track, they should go train, not go race at a lower level. It's a better use of the riders resources, and better use of Promoters and Governing Body resources IMO.

If it were logistically feasible I'd be all for canning cat 2-4 DH racing entirely. The fundamental technical skills in DH racing are fairly easy to learn from riding hard and often. The fitness requirements are quite do-able when the sport is approached as a lifestyle that requires commitment.

Getting rid of the racers that show up to show off their plumage, their strap-on manhood and their misogyny in beginner races would do a lot to improve the image of DH among the cycling public, and the general public at large.

-m

thank you. i needed a good laugh today and this hit the spot

hey, lets ditch minor league baseball too. i mean if they cant play at a MLB level, then they should keep training too.

 

[djjohnr]

There is no need to cater to recreational riders or less skilled or less fit riders at race events.

Need is something created by the people that may use something. There are beginners and intermediate riders that want to race. They are willing to pay entry fees to do so. They have a need.

It's a better use of the riders resources, and better use of Promoters and Governing Body resources IMO

Running a race is not cheap, by removing beginner and sport riders you'd eliminate a large percentage of revenue. That means less money for promoters and governing bodies to spend on courses as well as promoting our sport.

Furthermore, purchases of equipment by recreation racers increases overall sales volume of DH gear; and they are much more likely to pay full retail, which means lower prices for everyone involved.

 

[Kanye West]

I'd agree that nixing the beginner/sport level would be detrimental to cost, but I also agree that it encourages people who really don't have the skills built up yet, or at all, to just run out, buy an expensive bike, and show up at a race, and be a danger and liability. I see that happening often. The comparisons to road biking or baseball are somewhat unfair since neither of them are nearly as hazardous.

On the whole, I see a LOT of people at races who need to be hitting the harder trails more to train and hitting the gym a lot more. Pretty much a by-product of racing being too accessible.

 

[Transcend]

I'd agree that nixing the beginner/sport level would be detrimental to cost, but I also agree that it encourages people who really don't have the skills built up yet, or at all, to just run out, buy an expensive bike, and show up at a race, and be a danger and liability. I see that happening often. The comparisons to road biking or baseball are somewhat unfair since neither of them are nearly as hazardous.

On the whole, I see a LOT of people at races who need to be hitting the harder trails more to train and hitting the gym a lot more. Pretty much a by-product of racing being too accessible.

While the liability issue is fair, some people just really dont have the time to train and taking things "seriously". They just want to go out and have fun on weekends. There needs to be a place for them to do that. As mentioned, these are the people who really do drive the industry and buy the bikes and equipment and don't ask for "bro deals".

 

[ska todd]

The comparisons to road biking or baseball are somewhat unfair since neither of them are nearly as hazardous.

Ever fallen off a road bike at speed or been drilled with a fastball?

-ska todd

 

[djjohnr]

If we want courses with more advanced features (long gaps etc), we'll always need two sets of courses; at least until DH riding is so popular that we don't need to worry about growth of the sport (I really doubt that will happen anytime soon) or revenue loss.

In the meantime, we can make things better by being more stringent on who should be in what category, and possibly introduce qualifying to get a race license.

 

[Kanye West]

I've hit the pavement at speed (not off a road bike, but at similar speeds) and been nailed with quite a few fastballs.....actually far more hockey pucks than fastballs since I reffed drunken adult league ice hockey for a few years and would regularly get nailed by the puck being iced right up the boards.

DH riders at a higher level typically have more control over what's going on since they aren't interacting with anyone else on course, but the hazards are still there. If a DH rider or race is not on their game on a racecourse, things get ugly quick.

 

[IH8Rice]

While the liability issue is fair, some people just really dont have the time to train and taking things "seriously". They just want to go out and have fun on weekends. There needs to be a place for them to do that. As mentioned, these are the people who really do drive the industry and buy the bikes and equipment and don't ask for "bro deals".

exactly. amateur sports drive Pro sports in America and every where else. without the amateur level, people who dont want to devote their full time to training would have no place to go. the Pro athlete does not account for the majority of the bike sales in the world.

Ever fallen off a road bike at speed or been drilled with a fastball?

-ska todd

and wasnt basketball considered the "most dangerous sport" because of the injuries?

DH riders at a higher level typically have more control over what's going on since they aren't interacting with anyone else on course, but the hazards are still there. If a DH rider or race is not on their game on a racecourse, things get ugly quick.

what about amateur car racers? or motorcycle riders? or amateur skiers?

 

[dante]

I'd agree that nixing the beginner/sport level would be detrimental to cost, but I also agree that it encourages people who really don't have the skills built up yet, or at all, to just run out, buy an expensive bike, and show up at a race, and be a danger and liability. I see that happening often. The comparisons to road biking or baseball are somewhat unfair since neither of them are nearly as hazardous.

On the whole, I see a LOT of people at races who need to be hitting the harder trails more to train and hitting the gym a lot more. Pretty much a by-product of racing being too accessible.

Riding at an expert level is a LOT different than racing at an expert level. Beginner/Sport racing teaches you to go fast on terrain that you're comfortable on. I know a lot of people who can ride Expert (or DOUBLE BLACK DIAMOND MBA RATED TRAILS!!!) level terrain who'd put in 8+ minute times if they were ever in a race.

Ever fallen off a road bike at speed or been drilled with a fastball?

-ska todd

I'd take 10 crashes on a DH bike instead of 1 on a road bike. I've never heard of someone getting their thumb cut off by a guardrail in a DH crash...

 

[Big J]

Wtf…..are you kidding me…I got in to DH racing for the challenge & progression which I didn’t get tooling around our local mtb park.

I started out as the greenest of green beginner then in ‘07 I made the move from Sport to Expert and I was able to do that because most promoters had everyone race the same course. Having Sport/Beg race the same course promotes progression but in some cases roping off features of high consequence such as the one pictured in this thread is a no-brainer since coming up sort will garner the subsequent heli ride. Most course builders have the common sense to build features without the casing=death factor so leave it up to riders to make the choice since dumbing down a course helps no one.

Btw…As a former ‘Beginner’ I stopped counting the amount of $$$$ I pour in to DH racing (travel, fees, est.) I think that was right around the same time I turned Expert.

Keep it real…

J

 

[MinorThreat]

. . . Pretty much a by-product of racing being too accessible.

This has to take the cake as THE stupidest thing I have ever read on any forum ever .

 

[stumpjump]

Ridearounds are made for a reason. I've raced some of the easiest courses and some of the most difficult as well and over time Ive gone from being a mediorcre MTBer to a pretty fast DH racer. None of this would have ever happened had I not have courses to practice concepts and perfect things. You take beginners out of the sport (although we all know they can be annoying at times) you take money out of the sports pocket, which is responsible for R&D for better and cheaper products. I understand that beginners may have no place on certain terrain features but most resorts make it possible for both beginners and and pro's to co-exist.

That being said I am tired of the sport and expert class being filled with sandbaggers. Once I won my first sport race I moved up to expert, in order to continue to push myself to go faster. It really erks me these jacka$$'s are pushing pro times and still racing sport.

 

[bpatterson6]

Wtf…..are you kidding me…I got in to DH racing for the challenge of progression which I didn’t learn tooling around our local mtb park.

I started out as the greenest of green beginner then in ‘07 I made the move from Sport to Expert and I was able to do that because most promoters had everyone race the same course. Having Sport/Beg race the same course promotes progression but in some cases roping off features of high consequence such as the one pictured in this thread is a no-brainer since coming up sort will garner the subsequent heli ride. Most course builders have the common sense to build features without the casing=death factor so leave it up to riders to make the choice since dumbing down a course helps no one.

Btw…As a former ‘Beginner’ I stopped counting the amount of $$$$ I pour in to DH racing (travel, fees, est.) I think that was right around the same time I turned Expert.

Keep it real…

J

I happen to agree. For instance, Everyone races the same course at Angel Fire Chile Challenge. With the exception of the 1st road gap roped off for sport and beginner riders. The Challenges between my being a sport rider / Expert rider are alot different. I find myself being a high end sport / Low end Expert rider. I can hit alot of the different features on the pro expert DH courses such as road gaps and rock gardens but just not as fast as some of the fastest expert riders in my class. While at the same time I find myself being the same type of rider for 4x. I will jump doubles and such but the big 40ft doubles at AF are a bit intimidating to me still. I pull my ego into check because I know that at age 37 I just don't heal as fast as I used to anymore and work on a monday a.m. calls. I have more important priorities such as a wife, kids and a job that takes care of all of us so risking serious injury just isn't something I want to do for the sake of being the fastest rider anymore. FWIW, I have classed to CAT2 for this season to start. I hear these new cat's are supposed to make it more competitive. We'll see. I don't see what a name does for you. cat 3 = beg, Cat 2 = sport, Cat 1 = Expert/Semi and PRO is PRO. If things go well, I may move to Cat 1. I'm taking the wait and see approach.

 

[Mike Buell]

While the liability issue is fair, some people just really dont have the time to train and taking things "seriously". They just want to go out and have fun on weekends. There needs to be a place for them to do that. As mentioned, these are the people who really do drive the industry and buy the bikes and equipment and don't ask for "bro deals".

I think you summed it up perfect. These are the people, like my father, who has been the biggest supporter of my brother and I over the last five years. People that actually have real jobs and therefore money, and don't have to depend on "bro-deals" just to get by. These people drive the industry, and in our local series seem to be the people that are the biggest supporters of the serious racers, whether junior or pro. They don't have time to even ride that often let alone train, and they love to be a part of it when they get the chance, because even though they might not be as fundamentally sound they still have the passion for it. For them its just the experience of getting to participate.
Not to mention they are usually the ones booking hotel room's, going out to eat and what not, giving the resorts/towns reason's to support the races. Where as us pro's normally do everything we can to get by without spending a dime more then we have to. Living off Jar's of peanut butter, and trying to avoid paying any sort of fee to camp etc.
What I think Transend is saying and what I'm trying to say, is there would be no Cat 1 and Pro if it wasn't for the Cat 2's and 3's.

 

[Kanye West]

I said nothing about beginners being annoying. Everyone is green at some point. I'm just saying they can be very ill-prepared and be a danger to themselves and a liability to others, even on a watered down course.

When the race is staged so someone can show up with ANY bike and gear, plunk down $40, be handed a number plate and driven to the top of a DH run that is potentially dangerous.

I say, make the courses hard. Like harder than hell. Hard to the point where you'd HAVE to be a seasoned rider to even make it down much less race it. Make it evidently clear at the sign-up. What the sport would lose in terms of entry level riders it would MORE than make up for in spectators and coverage if done well.

I don't even know why I'm commenting on this since I don't race anymore. I time myself and race myself every so often, but am pretty over the modern racing scene, mostly because I could barrel roll down most of the courses around here safely.

 

[IH8Rice]

isnt road racing categories opposite for the new mtb categories?

 

[epic]

What the sport would lose in terms of entry level riders it would MORE than make up for in spectators and coverage if done well.

Why does the sport need spectators. I just want to race. I know I won't win. I want to race anyway. I don't want to bust my ass on a World Cup size course.

 

[gemini2k]

I don't even know why I'm commenting on this since I don't race anymore. I time myself and race myself every so often, but am pretty over the modern racing scene

Wurd. $45 bucks to get 4 shuttle runs down 3-4 minute courses.....no thx. Bring back races at mammoth or big bear. So I can actually spend the weekend riding instead of waiting for every other class to have their seperate 2-3 hour practice on the single DH trail....

 

[Jim Mac]

isnt road racing categories opposite for the new mtb categories?

No, it's just that they have a lot MORE classes - down to Cat 5/citizen class.

 

[IH8Rice]

No, it's just that they have a lot MORE classes - down to Cat 5/citizen class.

gotcha, i thought cat 5 was Pro in the roadie world.

i guess you do get smarter as you get older huh?

 

[Jim Mac]

I read books, I learn things.

 

[SuspectDevice]

I think Todd get's it.

Amateur racing is awesome. The attitudes of some racers, that racing should be about them, catered toward them, and dumbed down to suit their desires isn't.

 

[IH8Rice]

The attitudes of some racers, that racing should be about them, catered toward them, and dumbed down to suit their desires isn't.

 

[Transcend]

Whether you are sport class or pro class, the race SHOULD be catered towards you. The promoters seem to think we work for them. They don't seem to get that we are THEIR clients. I think racers have every right to complain when they pay $75 for a weekend of racing.

 

[IH8Rice]

Whether you are sport class or pro class, the race SHOULD be catered towards you. The promoters seem to think we work for them. They don't seem to get that we are THEIR clients. I think racers have every right to complain when they pay $75 for a weekend of racing.

'nuff said

 

[dante]

Whether you are sport class or pro class, the race SHOULD be catered towards you. The promoters seem to think we work for them. They don't seem to get that we are THEIR clients. I think racers have every right to complain when they pay $75 for a weekend of racing.

See the huge decline in the NORBA series...

 

[Kanye West]

Meow!

 

[Mike Buell]

That being said I am tired of the sport and expert class being filled with sandbaggers. Once I won my first sport race I moved up to expert, in order to continue to push myself to go faster. It really erks me these jacka$$'s are pushing pro times and still racing sport.

I also think we all need to just stop using the term sandbaggers. You spoke about riding and racing tough courses against fast riders and how it has helped with your progression. Well with this sandbagging issue, aren't these faster people hanging around in a category just helping everyone push themselves and progress. I mean I guess its one thing if someone is racing cat 3 and turning in winning cat 1 times. But I think it is totally legit for someone to win every single cat 2 or cat 1 race for an entire season. All this is going to do is to help bring up the level of the Cat. Not to mention how do you know these guy's should truly move up. Moving from cat 2-1 means having to race the more dangerous committing options etc. Moving from cat 1 to pro means having the time and motivation to train and really work hard to be your best, this isn't for everyone, and everyone can't win every weekend.

Here is the way I read into the classes and how I think everyone should view them.

First off I think there should be a healthy overlap between classes, and people shouldn't be ridiculed for sandbagging, that is lame.

-Cat 3 for true beginners most people probably won't spend to much time hear maybe a season or two, unless they are possibly older or just not really looking to progress, just want to ride once in a while and have some fun. Cat 3 is all about fun, its an introductory level. There should also be a huge spread in times in this class. Top Cat 3's should probably be placing a third to midway up in Cat 2, then these guy's should have the choice to move up when they are comfortable.

-Cat 2 for more recreational riders that have skill, but maybe don't have the gusto to push things as hard, you enjoy competition but are mostly there just to have fun. You are the weekend warriors, goal number 1 is to have fun and walk away healthy at the end of the weekend, except for maybe a minor hang over, these guy's should have a permanent place as a Cat 2 racer.
Cat 2 is also a step for people still working there way up, riders, making there way up the progression ladder. These riders that are on this track will spend there time in CAT 2 and then move up. Riders moving up to Cat 1 will posses more drive then the average cat 2 racer.

-Cat 1 is still a category for the hobby racer, the recreational rider that is very skilled and probably could be pro if they had the time and drive to train for it. These guy's are awesome athletes and great riders, but maybe not in the right place in there life to be competing as a pro. These people should be have a permanent place in Cat 1 even if they win every race they attend. These guy's will be the guy's that push the progressing riders and the youth, and help them get ready for the Jump to Pro. Cat 1 is also the final step before going pro for the truly motivated athlete. The athlete that has worked there way up through the ranks and who has the motivation to be a true Pro to do the work, to train and progress, and to strive to be the best they can. Only Cat 1 athletes that posses these traits should consider moving up to pro. Really talented athletes that just don't quite want it, and just want to keep it fun, should stay in Cat 1. Cat 1 should be a very competitive class, much like "Expert" is in the U.K. Winning Cat 1 times should be very competitive compared to the pro's even if that means top 10.

-Pro class should only be for truly motivated athletes who have proved that they have what it takes to be racing at the pro level, and racers that have the drive to continually work on improving their game. You shouldn't move to pro just because you are called a sandbagger for winning cat 1, you need to want it to be a pro, and you need to be willing to work. Going Pro just for the sake of being a Pro is lame.
The Pro class at the regional/national level should be 50-75% full of Athletes pushing themselves for spots competing at the World Level.

*Please don't critique my spelling and grammar, I've put a lot of thought into this, but I puked it out into words pretty quick, have many other things I should be doing right now.

 

[Cant Climb]

Whether you are sport class or pro class, the race SHOULD be catered towards you. The promoters seem to think we work for them. They don't seem to get that we are THEIR clients. I think racers have every right to complain when they pay $75 for a weekend of racing.

I agree with your thought, but with the state of racing and other limitations/challenges of putting on a race......it's not hard to find something and in many cases several things to complain about at every race....

Let's not tout that we turn into a bunch whingers to promote change.

 

[Inclag]

What we have in the UK seems to work quite well. Primarily age-groups:

Juvenile (12-14)
Youth (14-16)
Junior (16-18)
Senior (18-30)
Master (30-40)
Veteran (40-50)
Grand Vets (50+)

Then there's two higher-ability categories, which cover everything above Junior:

Expert (18+)
Elite (18+)

So juv/youth/juniors all have fixed categories, but from age 18 onwards you can be in the "entry-level" age cat (senior/master/vet) or, if you get enough ranking points, you can step up to Expert, and then again to Elite.

I've been complaining/saying forever this is the type of system the US needs. Get rid of all the silly age groups. If you want a first timer class, so be it. But from there on out it should be based on how fast you are and that's that. You're either a sport, expert, or pro.

I'm sorry but you shouldn't be an expert rider if you can't hit the bigger lines, or if you're 30+ and there are 16-29 year old sports that are smoking your times by 45 seconds.

 

[Old_Sckool]

Some of you guys complaining about the number of classes and groups don't seem to have an understanding of the REAL problem of mixing in lower skilled riders with much higher skilled riders.

At most DH races, riders are gapped at 30 second intervals. Ideally riders of similar skill ranges should NOT gap the rider in front of them and certainly not 2 or 3 riders. Passing on a DH course a race speed is often extremely dangerous if not down right impossible in some sections. Nothing is worse then catching a slower rider and not being able to get around them. This is also dangerous for the slower rider, since they may feel compelled to rider beyond there abilities, since you're riding their ass.

If race wins start being decided cause you got stuck trying to get around a slower rider (or 2 or 3 or even more), and another rider wins cause he lucked out and got a faster rider(s) in front of him, that's hardly the race going to the fastest/best rider. Of course some of this is unavoidable, but if you start lumping large quantities of lower skilled riders in with much higher skilled riders, I can guarantee you'll have problems. Plain and simple.

Only way I could see this working is if they had qualifying runs. Then you could start the fastest guys first and slowest guys last. But I don't see that happening.