Unfortunately without the designer/Engineer, it'd be a pile of carbon roving somewhere..you know what I mean by that.No, you are wrong! The manufacturer sits somewhere in Taiwan or China, so lets cut out the middle man (Santa Cruz) and get the frames directly from them!
New V10c XL Frames at Huge Discount
- Thread starter BigBoi
- Start date
Dilzy is basically right - Toyota revolutionised modern mass production with their waste minimisation model, where they essentially looked at every process and cost involved with manufacturing a product (especially inventory/storage, hence the kanban system) and determined that every cost that didn't add value to the customer (such as storage, moving around the factory etc) was wasteful.
The same principles need to be applied to the sales chain, and whatever costs money that is of no value to the customer needs to be cut out. A lot of the less tangible services offered by LBS's that are really helpful to Joe Average buying a $500 bike to get around town on are completely irrelevant to educated customers looking at high end products. Some bike shops do well by being located close to actual riding areas, with lots of parts on hand for people who break stuff and want it fixed ASAP so they can keep riding - in those cases, the customer DOES get a lot of value from the costs of stocking high end gear locally (Whistler shops are probably the best example of this), and the standard LBS model works. However, for most people turnaround time on a new bike or even most new parts, is not that critical, and there is little value added by getting something a couple of days quicker when it costs you thousands extra - and that's assuming the shop stocks what you need. Once the shop needs to order it in, all bets are off anyway.
The same principles need to be applied to the sales chain, and whatever costs money that is of no value to the customer needs to be cut out. A lot of the less tangible services offered by LBS's that are really helpful to Joe Average buying a $500 bike to get around town on are completely irrelevant to educated customers looking at high end products. Some bike shops do well by being located close to actual riding areas, with lots of parts on hand for people who break stuff and want it fixed ASAP so they can keep riding - in those cases, the customer DOES get a lot of value from the costs of stocking high end gear locally (Whistler shops are probably the best example of this), and the standard LBS model works. However, for most people turnaround time on a new bike or even most new parts, is not that critical, and there is little value added by getting something a couple of days quicker when it costs you thousands extra - and that's assuming the shop stocks what you need. Once the shop needs to order it in, all bets are off anyway.
What is shocking is how many of the "high end, premium" dh frames are really not much more than catalog frames made AND designed in Taiwan/China.
Make a list. I'd like to see 5 that are what you describe and not just vaguely similar. Because dilzy is right, while the manufacturing capabilites in Taiwan and China are awesome, the V10/Sunday/Phoenix/Session/Supreme/Summum/303/TR450/Scalp/Pulse/Aurum/Gambler/etc. wouldn't exist without the engineers/designers at the respective companies. The overwhelming majority of catalog frames are shockingly bad.
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XL V10s are gone.
thanks for the vote of confidence Dogboy.
Haha I don't think anyone thinks the v10 is a catalogue frame, however if you don't produce a pinion gearbox carbon nomad soon, I will convince my many 1 fan that it is so
Hardly a "MEGA" claim really. I will say I'm not referring to SC though. What kind of asshole would I be if I named names and actually gave sources?
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beacuse you are full of **** and were calling you out.
look, there are a bunch of catalog DH bikes that look like they might work, right? Some of the smarter ODMs (Original Design Manufacturers) in Taiwan use American and European contract designers to design stuff for them, they realized that its not their strong suit - and some white kids need jobs. But still, there is a vast gaping difference between any ODM design and what SCB produces. I'm not going to elaborate. This is clear to anyone who has seen things in real life.
For those not familiar, there are all shades of grey from pure "catalog" to "original" design as well, you can basically blend your catalog bike. That's where brands like [insert a brand you wouldn't ride] and [oh yeah that looks kinda familiar] operate - the ODM designs it to be price sensitive and is manufacturable - mutually inclusive goals. Let me be clear - I am not knocking any of those players, there is room for everything, and these are the folks who offer tech from a couple years back at reasonable prices. The preme players gotta push the envelope, and so prices keep rising on the new stuff.
But what we do fundamentally is a little different, and whether you like our bikes or not, the system doesn't get by without this "middle man". Our design is from scratch and we (and others of course) develop the new stuff. If we vanished, you'd be stuck in 2012 tech forever (god forbid). Some of our costs include needing some fast guys to help inform the process and be in photographs. And those a-holes want to get a salary! You know, sh*t adds up eventually. Trust me when I tell you that V10s don't pay the rent. But its the pinnacle of mtb equipment from an engineering perspective, and I'm ready for that stuff to get better.
$1,850 is most likely the wholesale / shop price. Puts retail markup around $1,450 if SC sells to retailers, or ~$1,000 if SC uses a distributor in US.
Doubt SC is selling these blowout frames below their normal margin. To claim that $1,850 is below cost is ridiculous.
It seems that way to me as well...
Accessories and service.
I assume you're not in the US - in the States, Amazon offers free two day and $3.99 overnight shipping on all Amazon Prime orders, for members. Same day service already in limited deployment...
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I don't want to sound like another member on here, but YT is also the "middle man" and design and engineer everything and then send blueprints to TW. And their complete bikes cost as much as a SC frame!
But whatever. You decided to produce abroad and obviously it works for you. For me a SC is not an option anymore because I like to support manufacturers that produce in the countries of their headquarters.
you are aware of the fact that YT is a pure internet outfit?
no dealers involved only direct sales, if SC would do this their regular prices would come down quite a bit as it has been discussed in this thread already...
no dealers involved only direct sales, if SC would do this their regular prices would come down quite a bit as it has been discussed in this thread already...
Nope, Canada. As far as Amazon in Canada goes, there's a limited choice on bike related things.
Jenson does 2-3 day service to montreal, fwiw.
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So I take it you wouldn't buy a YT bike either?I don't want to sound like another member on here, but YT is also the "middle man" and design and engineer everything and then send blueprints to TW. And their complete bikes cost as much as a SC frame!
But whatever. You decided to produce abroad and obviously it works for you. For me a SC is not an option anymore because I like to support manufacturers that produce in the countries of their headquarters.
Does SC use a distributor in the US? If so, that would put my guesstimate right on... According to your hint.
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Only morons would lump Santa Cruz in with the mfgrs that Gemini referenced... Unfortunately, the Internet has lots of them.
Using TW manufacturing allows us to get our bikes at even better prices, and the quality is almost certainly better overall than if every house did all of their own manufacturing. But the "haters gonna hate."
It pains me to see you feel like you have to defend outfits like SC from Internet haters, but I guess that's life.
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I'm not defending anything or anyone, I'm just trying to provide information. Criticism often stems from ignorance, and I'm not familiar enough with the RM regulars to know who is sincere and who's just an a$$hat and should be tuned out.
In the US, Amazon's bike (and DH for that matter) selection is massive. In Canada it's non-existent.
Example: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=Rockshox+seal&rh=i:aps,k:Rockshox+seal
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And by "bike" you mean bike parts, right? Because the actual bike selection is pretty pitiful unless you are in the market for a Montague folding bike or Piranah Mindtrick mountain bike.
Santa Cruz distributes directly to their authorized dealers.
We're all asshats who should be tuned out.
That said, my carbon/red V10 frame is due this afternoon so I'm the happiest asshat in town right now!
No, sadly I'm not. I admit when I'm wrong or full of sh*t. This is not one of those times.
+1
Mine should be here today or tomorrow as well. Sales like this are the only way a broke mofo like me can get on a sexy frame like the v10
Mine is due tomorrow as well! Cant wait.
Nope!
But lets put it this way: if I would buy a bike from a company that produces in TW then it would rather be YT than Speci or SC. Because with YT I get what everybody promised us when they outsourced to TW: reasonable priced bikes.
Right on, so you would buy an "unreasonably" priced carbon Devinci Wilson (made in Canadia) before you bought a YT?
Kiss/slap. Mine is at home waiting for me to heal from a broked collar bone suffered Sunday.
don't you dare to have one without me!another YT debate brews.
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All Im gonna say, is congrats to all you dudes waiting for your V10's, get stoked. I got mine (whole bike) at an obscenely low price, couldnt pass it up. Put, I simply could not afford to get these things retail.
Now run 'em in 8.5"...
Now run 'em in 8.5"...
Tell me more.Now run 'em in 8.5"...
Tbh just my preference. One, my local hills imo don't require 10, and I like the ramp up I feel in the 'shorter' setting. In 10 I barely feel bottoming out, sans the bigger hits. Two, Im running a Van 180 atm, feels more balanced. Real fun bike esp. with the sc 180, I felt its easier to move around, an absolute blast to ride.
Thanks. I plan on switching between the settings depending on where I'm riding but its been hard to get any feedback re: 8.5 mode. Highland is my local mtn and it certainly doesn't need 10" of travel.
Clearly I'm as asshat to be ignored but from what I've seen, pretty much every arguably decent catalog suspension frame is a rip off of someone else's bike. And copying an overall layout and putting the pivots in kinda, sorta, vaguely the right place does not always get you a bike that rides well. But if you can't tell the difference or don't think the difference justifies the cost, rock it.
Regardless, companies like SCB will continue to evolve our sport, and they will continue to be flattered in the most sincere way: Imitation.
Regardless, companies like SCB will continue to evolve our sport, and they will continue to be flattered in the most sincere way: Imitation.
This is a good call.Now run 'em in 8.5"...
The bike is really different and fun in 8.5". I like 10" for really rough stuff but I'm also an asshat and shouldn't be listened to. A big difference is in negative travel that you sit into, you end up at about the same geometry at sag, the static numbers are misleading. 8.5" is poppier, and a less progressive rate. I put a chart with how it maps out shock rate wise on the other V10 thread, which also shows the other combinations we considered doing during the development.
and that title is true.
Which air shock to switch to. Cane Creek DBAir or Vivid Air RC2?