New Whip? New toys for the dependable steed?
- Thread starter mykel
- Start date
Think about how badass they will hook up with my O-chain...man it's like a party about to go down.. (I say this giving you shit woo, in good humor lol)
Well what I see is staggered corner edges that lead into the dirt and larger side knobs for support with less roll..the Chevron as well as leading lugs have proven to bite for years (I've seen some odd patterns hook up)...we cut tires for off road truck racing too....but I could be wrong and a dumb ass..
A straight wall with no leading edges tires probably makes for a fun as hell tire that slides till it bites or possibly hard lines a corner like a razor in ice and doesn't allow flow .. or we could go with a every other lug that allows a void and we could mimic the dhf's falling point when leaning but on the outside of the tire...hell if we combined that my god...the falling feeling would be epic...
I look at the edges like a saw, with a gradual and progressive bite..supported by a larger lug.
Either way I'm pretty sure they will kick ass and be a good time ...If not then well shit I at least ride em and have a review
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Those ramped middles and wide flat rear edges of the center knobs are fine. They'll roll from the ramps and brake on the back just great.
But those sideknobs are designed as if they're a drive tire vs a driven tire. Climbing is boring and stupid and when people want traction we're talking about driven tires because the fun part happens when coasting. That's what you're usually doing when cornering hard so it's safe to say that sideknobs designed for cornering are for the coasting part, or for a tire being coasted or pushed by the bike, not a tire spinning hard and driving the bike like the rear tire on a dirbike.
Here's that tread, oriented so that it's mimics the imprint on the ground, forward going up.
Center knobs obviously make sense. Ramped on the leading edge, with a big wide braking surface. Moving that picture forward puts the braking edges forward so they're going to resist the dirt.
Those sideknobs are open. As in the part that hits the dirt first is further out than where the knob closes out. This would be fucking sweet if the tire was under 40-50hp of drive because it would cup dirt. But that's not what mtb tires do....we're coasting when leaning over far.
But what we are doing is braking. Which means the tire is resisting forward movement so you want it grab dirt to work better.
Are those cupping dirt or releasing it? The front edges are further in with the rear of the knobs further out....they're releasing dirt, not capturing it. Which is why every other tire fucking worth a damn has those sideknobs angled in the opposite direction.
Now turn. Maybe even slide and push a little bit.
Which tire takes more turning to get those sideknobs parallel to a 45 degree turn?
Your new forefront of design?
Or something like a butcher that has the knobs angled in the opposite way?
That butcher hits the right angle of your drift BEFORE the angle you're turning. The schlob you actually have to turn MORE than the angle you want to turn.
Plus the butcher angle actually cups dirt if (god forbid the thing we pretend no one does) you're braking in a turn. Same braking edge, same ramps, but with sideknobs that actually do things that help you corner.
There's a very good reason most tires being designed look like sideknob replicas of minions/butchers etc and none of the ones that stick around look like the backwards shit that schwalbe makes. They seem to thing mtb tires are all on 2wd vehicles for some reason.
Schwalbe gets by on 1mm taller knobs than everyone else and sticky soft, compliant rubber......to save a shit design. Just like maxxis did with the ass guys.
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I find it funny that schwalbe with it's piss poor design seems to still hold their own..
Yeah rubber durometer is huge aka the slow reezay back in the day..
I prefer a stickier tire because it hooks up and adds bite. Yes it adds rollin resistance but even a performance car tire relies heavily on compound..
We use it to help with grip, deflection, and deaden chatter...so I welcome a good compound...
I love my magic Mary tires I have ran them in some nasty shit from NW down to here and in-between..snow, mud, rocks, roots and overall crap dusty pea gravel we ride
Tire works and has those ill designed lugs too..so there must be something about it..
You say maxxis, well I just went to garage looked at magic Mary, chan , minion dhf and dhr as well as assegai.what I see is 2 different ways to creat a resistant wall to drift and line...
Maxxis likes to stagger lugs with an on and off position so there's on and off and on and off..at speed creates a resistance for cornering and how far you dig into it it pushes back
Schwalbe uses a saw pattern where a leading edges and then ramps up pressure..no on and off just a gradual increase..
Both will increase with lean and if your a flat corner load based on designs when you load above soddle high to push down for grip they both have lugs that should hold line well
I haven't rode them yet so I can't say wether they will be as good as I hope but based on outside lug design I know exactly how to dig a corner they mimick a Mary enough that I know I can drop em down...they have a mid line and void similar to big Betty and a minion dhf so I expect a small void in lean...if they turn out bad then no biggie but I will base it on saddle time and actually running it and assess it with what I see sitting on table with it's design...
I like assegai, that tire has saved my ass and I'm not a WC racer I ride for fun and getting after it once in a while.
Whatever they did that's a shit design, I didn't notice it...what I did notice isninivershot a step down to berm and I assumed I was going to get my ass handed to me.
Paid it out went for it and figured fight the good fight. tire held line extremely well...
As far as coasting , that's on a flat road cruising on a Friday night...nit trail. if you have ever dug your ass end down and pushed your not coasting
The leans to rolling no other input..
I'm pretty sure the tread design reacts to load not acceleration...and the side load down or out is why they come alive...
It's not just coasting they are being put under loads and pushed as well as rocks , interference and varying levels of terrain
..
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I Picked a knob ✓
Posted a close up of it...✓
(Sorry for those who wanted to see my knob)
That's my knob foo, quit trying to think your knob has any knobbyness over my knob...it's got lug and relief cuts that your knob can't handle..
Be a dick about my knob ✓
Dam and all that awesomeness by 6:40am ..
And to think I had no reply to this 3 minutes ago..
Lol I don't judge or tear apart stuff I just want to ride have a good time and really try stuff out ...as long as it makes sense..
You guys are so lucky to wake up to my smarterness...
I forget what podcast it was, but they had someone (one of the engineers) from Schwalbe on it. I don't use Schwalbe tires but it was interesting hearing them talk about the design and testing they go through. And how at the end of the day they (and other companies) can do all the design work, calculations, coffee pouring, etc they want, but it really just comes down to putting the tires on dirt and testing them out.
He also went on to say they (the enginerds) would like to have heavy tires and to do away with inserts and all that crap. The tire can do all the work. But nope, the general riding population wants lighter tires or at least they like the concept of light tires - but then have to deal with tons of sealant, inserts etc etc.
He also went on to say they (the enginerds) would like to have heavy tires and to do away with inserts and all that crap. The tire can do all the work. But nope, the general riding population wants lighter tires or at least they like the concept of light tires - but then have to deal with tons of sealant, inserts etc etc.
It was probably from the Plnkbike Podcast #204 (oct 26th).
The Magic Marys were the only tires that I have ridden with angled sideknobs, but I have not ridden them enough to have a strong opinion and it was 3 years ago so I don't recall that much (I like to try new tires each year). I don't feel like I want to try them again though, there are better choices for my preferences/riding/terrain.
Even riding the new Kryptotal R (enduro, soft, rear F+R) this year, my favorite tire tread+compound ever are the E13 TRS+ Mopo (40d). I'm guessing that the new Contis but in super soft will be as good or better though, but the E13 MOPO compound is awesome. It lasts long and sticks well over the whole life of the tire.
It seems that I prefer a pretty consistent tread pattern with a channel and straight side knobs, but the Tacky Chans seem to have a too wide channel for me. It seems to work for the pros though!
The Magic Marys were the only tires that I have ridden with angled sideknobs, but I have not ridden them enough to have a strong opinion and it was 3 years ago so I don't recall that much (I like to try new tires each year). I don't feel like I want to try them again though, there are better choices for my preferences/riding/terrain.
Even riding the new Kryptotal R (enduro, soft, rear F+R) this year, my favorite tire tread+compound ever are the E13 TRS+ Mopo (40d). I'm guessing that the new Contis but in super soft will be as good or better though, but the E13 MOPO compound is awesome. It lasts long and sticks well over the whole life of the tire.
It seems that I prefer a pretty consistent tread pattern with a channel and straight side knobs, but the Tacky Chans seem to have a too wide channel for me. It seems to work for the pros though!
WTB and kenda still sell shit tons of tires too, doesn't mean they know what they're doing.
The saw pattern is almost irrelevant. It can be angled either way.
Go get used to those tires. Then flip the front around and lean into a big long fast turn on something you know really well. Not some bermed shit, something where you're actually using the sides. You can feel the difference.
My preferences in tire designs aren't based on navel gazing. Eons ago when I moved to the shitty dry dirt we have in this state during the summer, I just started figuring out why certain tires worked and others didn't. Schwalbe, just like every other mediocre tire company has glommed onto a charactertistic design principle and won't let it go because you keep buying them. Doesn't mean it couldn't be better with one easy change. That tire would kill you if those knobs were shorter like on most good maxxis tires. It's gets by on knob height and rubber compounds. It would be probably one of the best tires ever made if they'd just figure out how sideknobs work.
Imagine all the time and money they'd save if they knew what they were doing.
"we have no idea how this works until we test it" is the mantra of guesswork.
marshall and I looked into it a few years ago. He actually got some quotes on a ground up new design. Making completely new molds is damn expensive
Additionally, the minimum orders from CST were pretty damn high with a pretty big initial payment. So much so that the idea of convincing a bunch of new buyers to trust a new product just seemed like too big of a risk. If I remember right it was like 20-40 grand.....and that was 10ish years ago. Can't even fathom what it would be now.
Plus at the time, there were lots of good tires coming out that we were both pretty happy with. It's even more the case now. There are lots of good options out there. Just because I can point out why one of them could be a lot better doesn't mean nothing good exists.
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FWIW, Conti also angles the side knobs in (opposite of Schwalbe). I've seen other people comment that angling them out leads to them having a feeling of stepping out when leaned over. I also don't love the stuttering feeling of the staggered Schwalbe knobs when leaned over on hardpack.
Those angles just lead to the tires not being able to provide consistent resistance perpendicular to the way you're trying to turn. You have to actually oversteer to get it, and then that gets all weird and slidey
I'm just here for the weird english translations
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on my DH bike even with the heavy casings i still run inserts and prefer to do so vs no inserts. part of that is because i'm ~220lbs without gear.
thats one person. the one behind gripton, black chilli compound and addix. does his own thing now
Kenda makes a bunch of OE tires and I will say that tire is TOTAL shit...I lost races and places due to the nevegals and blue groove....I however have had some of my best runs on dhf, magic Mary etc..mary will break a little loose hard leaned on flat..lugs have a smidge of squirm...but it's not a deal killer like maxxis has a dead zone when dropping over..you learn to use it..
You can hammer down all you want, I took 2 months to order these reading reviews looking at em , assessing what I love and hate about the tires I've used and what I'm willing to compromise in 1 area to gain in another...the tacky chan seems to fit the bill and if the front doesn't load like I want them a magic Mary back up front .
Agree college contractors have no place arguing with the guys in the trenches.. the boots to ground is always the best feedback, may go against computer models but real world is the only way..
I like maxxis I like schwalbe I know what to expect out of both of them and we are in no way going to push the limits compared to a WC rider...
I can pick apart anything even my own work , ,I'm actually really bad about self judging and push harder...but I don't overthink shit, no reason to.. unless you have had time on something you are as bad as a college contractor...
You have no idea what deformity plays into it when running it and or a stiffer sidewall may activate the lugs different ...WAY WAY to many variables to be that conclusive and not ridden it..
I can sell em and not lose a dime , I'm not motivated by placebo just curiosity ...but I won't slam something, especially if I didn't design it and understand anything that contributed synergistically to the performance (ie sidewalls, tread, durometer, cornering style)
You can hammer down all you want, I took 2 months to order these reading reviews looking at em , assessing what I love and hate about the tires I've used and what I'm willing to compromise in 1 area to gain in another...the tacky chan seems to fit the bill and if the front doesn't load like I want them a magic Mary back up front .
Agree college contractors have no place arguing with the guys in the trenches.. the boots to ground is always the best feedback, may go against computer models but real world is the only way..
I like maxxis I like schwalbe I know what to expect out of both of them and we are in no way going to push the limits compared to a WC rider...
I can pick apart anything even my own work , ,I'm actually really bad about self judging and push harder...but I don't overthink shit, no reason to.. unless you have had time on something you are as bad as a college contractor...
You have no idea what deformity plays into it when running it and or a stiffer sidewall may activate the lugs different ...WAY WAY to many variables to be that conclusive and not ridden it..
I can sell em and not lose a dime , I'm not motivated by placebo just curiosity ...but I won't slam something, especially if I didn't design it and understand anything that contributed synergistically to the performance (ie sidewalls, tread, durometer, cornering style)
what's the 'cornering style' for this?
the bike industry loves you
Speak for yourself, I'm smart enough to know when tires are working and when they aren't. The most talented people on earth can work around subpar equipment. As much as these things cost (which we pay for and they don't) it's a lot more of an investment on our part so shit should be as good as we can find. You can easily make the argument that we need better shit than WC riders because we don't have the skills to compensate for shit tires as much. I don't just accept the assumed genius from an industry that puts out shit like the above. We're in a world with 5dev cranks remember.
Not sure why you say I'm not considering compound when I've stated twice now that this is how schwalbe gets away with goofy designs? Maxxis is just as bad these days, the recent shit they've released has just as much dumb.
I'm not kidding. Ride those chans for a while and then go ride them flipped around. The braking will suck but pay attention to how they work on corners with no brakes
It's not like sound design priciples somehow escape this one little dorky industry that survives on new and different before good and reliable.
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They said they could take the weight of inserts and put that into the tires (DH included) - they'd be heavier and perform better. They'd be heavier, but in key areas. So you'd have a heavier tire, that works well and would have no need for extra faffing with stuff like inserts. It was an interesting thought and part of the podcast, it kind of makes sense.
You know that feeling from your tires, even more pronounced on dh casings, when you go out on the first really cold day of fall......and your tires feel way more damp and absorb chop better running into shit? That's the same effect. A colder casing feels like what a stiffer one would in 80deg
He's not wrong. It's just that climbing with 1500+g tires sucks. Thicker casings also put all the weight at the widest radius of the wheel, whereas inserts are closer to the hub and ride lighter than just a thicker tire
Lol well I'm glad they love me, I have had a good time trying different stuff over the years...and had some good and had some not so good .
As far as the wtb that's about as the same as asking my why a flat tire won't roll fast...there's a certain amount of WTF that no matter how much you want it to work it won't. I think the wtb will keep the rim off the dirt..probably go fast straight and wash out cornering, me definitive edges...
I won't debate it being you haven't ridden it, I will ride it and I will see what it's characteristics are...your stance has flaws for sure, mine is open minded and actually ride it..by your account its based on tread direction only...
And then saving their piss poor design with compounds...shit what tire doesn't try to add where they can...that's progress and business
Last time I checked sipping and relief cuts were like crush zones in a cage, they under load allow the tire to do something different .
This is effected by sidewall, this is effected by psi, rider weight, top profile, thickness of sidewalls pushing back and load...
You can have 2 that look the same but have different character based on the whole design...not looks..
Come on, inserts aren't any closer to the hub than tires are. Ok maybe an inch?
We're all riding big squishy suspension bikes with squishy tires, that isn't going to make that much of a difference. Plus one of the areas that would be strengthened is the sidewall, right where the inserts are.
I'm not saying they won't work, they will. I'm only saying they'd work better cornering if they were flipped.
You like trying things so ride them for a while them flip them around.
1-2" but you don't think that makes a difference? It's literally exponentialCome on, inserts aren't any closer to the hub than tires are. Ok maybe an inch?
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I don't disagree on that, I want to see if there's a reason based on all the design that plays into that direction as a strength...the sidewalls are a lot more durable than the other tires in the same category...profile thinner for resistance and roll over...
I will run them different psi to get the run out of em and yes...I think that is a great idea to flip it and see how it handles digging in and out of direction..
just be careful on the brakes
Actually if you have a hot tire knife you could cut the ramps off on the centers and get a braking edge back.
the die halves are also misaligned.
R^2 not X^R
[/mathematical pedantry]
[mathematical pedantry]
R^2 not X^R
[/mathematical pedantry]
What do you call that two there? There's a name for it....can't quite think of it. But it's that word that describes the power a number is raised to....... Man I wish I could think of it
I'm saying an inch within R is not just an inch, it's raised to a power. A relationship described as......
that is the common use term, but technically exponential describes a relationship where the variable is the power, not a constant. Rotory moment of inertia is a parabolic to radius. Why do you think I added the pedantry tag?
Makes a difference once you dive into multidimensional linear systems.
Blissfullyhappy?
Have a hot knife and a edge dikes..cut alot of tread in past, MX and off road trucks as well . That's a shit job...pnuematic nibbler short blade works well .just be careful on the brakes
Actually if you have a hot tire knife you could cut the ramps off on the centers and get a braking edge back.
Hadn't thought that far ahead but will definitely keep note on that when I flip them to see .
He's like a little rock Johnson with his one brow scowl...do you smell what the pebble has cooking...