[kidwoo]

an air 40 wouldn't ride like a coil 40 at all.

And which is precisely why I'd pay for a 40 air version.


I don't care about the wieght, they're already light enough as a coil.

But unfortunately fox can't seem to get their sh1t straight with a proper spring/damping setup. It's either ride high, stiff, and never bottom or ride plush and smack the crap out of the bottom constantly.

 

[4xBoy]

They are obviously going to make a 38 to fill the gap between the 36 and the 40.

Worse they make a 34 with a 15 axle.

 

[4xBoy]

Float with IS direct stem mount and the old axle setup.

The Fox I.S. mount, that way you can have three styles to choose from.

 

[ska todd]

The new Fox/Shimano 15mm standard is teh ghey - a new standard to save less than 10 grams and piss off consumers:

http://www.raleigh.co.za/blogs.php?blogId=182&authorId=5

I have been waiting for months for this to leak onto ridemonkey. I'm surprised it took this long. I have been privy to this for a while now and am a personal proponent. Josh, I think you (and Jan there) are entirely missing the point of 15x100.

I see this as an effort to move forward fork technologies and start shaving weight from 100-150mm fork platforms. This is a "system weight" concept. Your fork might weigh a smidge more but your wheelset is now less, and the net effect is an equal (or lighter) complete bike weight along with a fork that has better bump performance and a stiffer wheelset. That's a great net benefit in my book!

In the long run you will end up with lighter, stiffer, stronger, and safer products. Akin to onepointfive a la 2003, lots of people are going to cast stones and say "we don't need this; we don't want this" as a defensive instinct. In the long term though, I think this is certainly where the market is trending and where it needs to go for the marathon XC/trail/lightweight all mtn market segments.

For the traditional XCO style race market, this product won't fly as well since yes, fast wheel changes are still needed. That's because it's now basically a cyclocross race on a bike w/ 26" wheels (or 29"...or 650B), flat bars, suspension forks, and some lower gearing. However, this market is shrinking as riders (especially in Europe) are going towards marathon style events. I'd still see the need for some 80/100mm traditional QR style forks here.

These riders demand stiffer, lighter products but also need durability and performance. The CEN standards in the EU are also more defined and rigid than past fatigue standards.

As for the old/new parts compatibility "problems"; plaid and simply, you've done it before and you'll do it again. Your 1:2 Shimano shifters aren't compatible with 1:1 Sram, your collection of spare Isis BB's won't work with 2pc cranks, and your V-brake levers won't work on hydraulic brakes. I'm sure there will be some sort of retrofit kit for many popular hubs on the market to fit the new standard, so you won't have to sweat it long.

One can debate the minutia details of one size (15x100) or another (20x110) but the concept is certainly correct. In the long run it is probably wise for the more aggressive products to not be as easily compatible with the less aggressive products. As bike dorks we might not like this but, it helps keep the lawyers happy and maybe cut down on the "pinkbike" type kids bolting some aftermarket freeride parts onto their mid range XC rigs and getting thumped when the product fails.

As far as my personal Fox "wish list", a 203mm triple clamp 36 Float w/ an integrated stem mount and 20x110 dropouts...and no, that isn't me "leaking" any info, just what I am personally asking Santa for

-ska todd

 

[Bulldog]

One can debate the minutia details of one size (15x100) or another (20x110) but the concept is certainly correct. In the long run it is probably wise for the more aggressive products to not be as easily compatible with the less aggressive products. As bike dorks we might not like this but, it helps keep the lawyers happy and maybe cut down on the "pinkbike" type kids bolting some aftermarket freeride parts onto their mid range XC rigs and getting thumped when the product fails.

That is the ONLY reason for this new "standard" - LAWYERS.

 

[4xBoy]

Actually the 15 might be a good design for ceramic bearing hubs, which are incoming from shimano if you ask me (not that I have knowledge but they have stepped into ti. and carbon so this seems logical).

Still dreaming about a Float 40.

 

[Transcend]

Official word from Fox, no float 40 in 2009. No Qr20 40 either.

 

[MDJ]

A 38 180mm with all of the flavors. I see a lot of Totems and 66s on the trails which translates to a lot of money that Fox is leaving on the table.

Dirt Jump/DS/4X/whatever fork.

Oh yeah, and a $300 smaller price tag on all models.

 

[ska todd]

That is the ONLY reason for this new "standard" - LAWYERS.

No, that's just a convenient by product of it. They don't have that problem in Europe as much as we do. "Marketing" is probably the most likely culprit; unless there is some engineering reason too that I am not smart enough to know about.

Let's face it, Euro marathon guys and "old men with beards" (as a Brit friend describes them) are downright scared of us downhill/freeride folks. Sticking "freeride wheels" on their uber light 6" bike is just not going to happen.

-ska todd

 

[banj]

Why don't the "old men with beards" just build up a lightweight 20mm wheels? Or is it the 20mm hub/fork that they don't like? If that's the case why are they going to all of a sudden be happy with 15mm hubs/forks? I'm very confused as to the purpose of the 15mm standard. It doesn't seem to be doing anything a 20mm isn't already doing except for creating the need for one more set of wheels in the stable.

 

[nugget]

Official word from Fox, no float 40 in 2009. The QR question was left mysteriously hanging though!

There's still hope for the 203mm dual crown 36 float!

 

[syadasti]

How is the 15mm size any better than 20mm other than 10 grams lighter as Jan points out? It has more dish too = weaker than a 20mm standard wheel. We didn't need the 25mm maverick standard and we don't need 15mm fox standard. Seems about as beneficial as the jump from 8 to 9 speeds.

 

[Zark]

Seems about as beneficial as the jump from 8 to 9 speeds.

I still miss 8 speed, damn that stuff shifted great and wasn't so finicky as 9spd

 

[kidwoo]

How is the 15mm size any better than 20mm other than 10 grams lighter as Jan points out? It has more dish too = weaker than a 20mm standard wheel. We didn't need the 25mm maverick standard and we don't need 15mm fox standard. Seems about as beneficial as the jump from 8 to 9 speeds.

I LOVE, no ........NEED my 34t cog!!!

 

[FrontRangeDH]

I have seen a lot of guys getting ultegra and dura ace cassettes and cutting them down to 7 speed and spacing them and then running stronger 8 speed chains and having better cleaner shifting without missing the extra gears...more is not always better

I dont see the benefit of the 15mm through axle. I like to be able to interchange all of the wheels on all of my bikes, atleast the fronts...I dont want to have to start buying more hubs and stuff. I just now am converting all bikes to oversize bars and stems

 

[syadasti]

I LOVE, no ........NEED my 34t cog!!!

Its been a long time but I think the cassette spacing changed going from 7 to 8 not 8 to 9. Why couldn't they do 34T on 8 speed - I don't recall the sizes sold then - I was just thinking about riding then instead which cassette to buy.

edit: they still make/sell them:

Shimano HG40 11-34: 8-Speed Cassette, 11-13-15-17-20-23-26-34 Gear Ratio, This is a basic Shimano Replacement cassette for use on an 8-Speed drivetrain. The cassette has a silver finish and steel cogs.

 

[Cant Climb]

Its been a long time but I think the cassette spacing changed going from 7 to 8 not 8 to 9. Why couldn't they do 34T on 8 speed - I don't recall the sizes sold then - I was just thinking about riding then instead which cassette to buy.

they did have a 34T on 8 speed....shimano MEGA-Range....it took extra links to reach though....was dumb...

 

[jonKranked]

I have seen a lot of guys getting ultegra and dura ace cassettes and cutting them down to 7 speed and spacing them and then running stronger 8 speed chains and having better cleaner shifting without missing the extra gears...more is not always better

8 speed chains don't work on 9 speed cassettes (they jump gear frequently). Removing 2 cogs from the cassette doesn't change the spacing between the remaining cogs. The spacing between cogs on a 9spd cassette is smaller than on an 8 spd because they were both designed to fit the same freehub body size.

 

[ska todd]

Why don't the "old men with beards" just build up a lightweight 20mm wheels? Or is it the 20mm hub/fork that they don't like? If that's the case why are they going to all of a sudden be happy with 15mm hubs/forks?

It's more about the cross pollination I think. With the popularity of pre-built wheels, a lot of the traditional XC side wants their "own" stuff like we have ours; and that's fine and ducky in my book. Marathon/Trail/light All Mtn is the biggest (and growing strong!) segment of the high-end bike business.

You can pretty much bet that King, Hope, DT, Mavic, and all the others will have 15mm cones & axles for their 20mm hubs so you can change your "old" wheels in the whole of 5 minutes.

I've seen plenty of happy XC folks w/ Leftys and Maverick forks which both use odd-ball hubs.

-ska todd

 

[Cant Climb]

Marzocchi made a 20mm Z1 xFly air like 7 years ago......no one would be using that for freeride....was a nice stiff trail fork for bigger or faster people.....

The "using freeride stuff" on xc bikes arguement doesn't hold water....kids will do it anyway if that cant afford a new frame.....who says they then go buy a 15mm fork instead of 20mm....?......

It's all a marketing ploy to get money out of pockets.....

 

[kidwoo]

Its been a long time but I think the cassette spacing changed going from 7 to 8 not 8 to 9. Why couldn't they do 34T on 8 speed - I don't recall the sizes sold then - I was just thinking about riding then instead which cassette to buy.

edit: they still make/sell them:

Whoa......news to me.


Yeah then fvck all that 9sp crap.


Or give me a 36t cog

 

[syadasti]

It's all a marketing ploy to get money out of pockets.....

Yes nothing more. I give Centerloc a lot more merit than this crap.

 

[ska todd]

8 speed chains don't work on 9 speed cassettes (they jump gear frequently). Removing 2 cogs from the cassette doesn't change the spacing between the remaining cogs. The spacing between cogs on a 9spd cassette is smaller than on an 8 spd because they were both designed to fit the same freehub body size.

Plus, 9 spd and 8spd chains have the same link-plate thickness. It's the inner bushing that is slightly narrowed.

I've seen a lot fewer snapped chains in the past few years than in the 8spd days. If anything, the newer 9spd chains are stronger than the best old 8spd ones. The "poor shifting" is more-often-than-not a result of worn chain/cassette, fouled cable/housing, too much/little B tension, or crappy cable routing.

Its been a long time but I think the cassette spacing changed going from 7 to 8 not 8 to 9. Why couldn't they do 34T on 8 speed - I don't recall the sizes sold then - I was just thinking about riding then instead which cassette to buy.

edit: they still make/sell them:

they did have a 34T on 8 speed....shimano MEGA-Range....it took extra links to reach though....was dumb...

It is a cage-length/chain feed/total gear capacity issue if I remember correct. 8spd MegaRange cassettes are designed for use w/ the big pulley comfort RD's. It WILL work but will explode your RD if you cross gear big*big or will have too many links if little*little combo.

-ska todd

 

[Cant Climb]

The "poor shifting" is more-often-than-not a result of worn chain/cassette, fouled cable/housing, too much/little B tension, or crappy cable routing.
-ska todd

Are you saying poeple who own 8speed are worse mechanics then people who own 9speed....?....:huh:

Or are you saying it's ok to mix 8 and 9 speed chains on 8,9 speed cassettes....?

 

[Cant Climb]

It is a cage-length/chain feed/total gear capacity issue if I remember correct. 8spd MegaRange cassettes are designed for use w/ the big pulley comfort RD's. It WILL work but will explode your RD if you cross gear big*big or will have too many links if little*little combo.-ska todd

Is was referring to DH.....some people would use the 34 8speed but that leaves alot of chain to flop around.....

 

[OGRipper]

Plus, 9 spd and 8spd chains have the same link-plate thickness. It's the inner bushing that is slightly narrowed.

I've seen a lot fewer snapped chains in the past few years than in the 8spd days. If anything, the newer 9spd chains are stronger than the best old 8spd ones. The "poor shifting" is more-often-than-not a result of worn chain/cassette, fouled cable/housing, too much/little B tension, or crappy cable routing.

-ska todd

My experience is different, way more busted 9 spd chains, and I seem to mangle 9 spd cassettes more quickly too.

As for Fox, the DJ version of the 36 has been kicking around in prototype stages for a while now, looks great and not really a secret.

An air 40 with integrated stem would be kick ass.

Really, I expect a 4 lb, 1.5, 40mm, single crown, full carbon, anti-dive/leading link model any day now.

 

[jonKranked]

Are you saying poeple who own 8speed are worse mechanics then people who own 9speed....?....:huh:

Or are you saying it's ok to mix 8 and 9 speed chains on 8,9 speed cassettes....?

no, part of it is manufacturing tolerances. Because 9 spd chains are narrower the resulting tolerances required for their production becomes tighter. And I think material technology has gotten better for chains. Or I could be totally out in left field.

And no, its NOT ok to mix 8 and 9 speed chains/cassettes...

9 spd chain = 9 spd cassette
8 spd chain = 8 spd cassette

 

[ska todd]

Are you saying poeple who own 8speed are worse mechanics then people who own 9speed....?....:huh:

Or are you saying it's ok to mix 8 and 9 speed chains on 8,9 speed cassettes....?

Nope, just think that a lot of the issues have been exacerbated by longer travel suspension designs and things of the like and are therefore blamed on 9spd. So many people now run a chain/cassette for a full season when in the past they'd be forced to change them a couple times a year because their chain would break and take with it their cassette, housing, cable, and RD.

I do think that the 9spd cassettes are more problematic than the old 8spd ones though, as the larger cogs tend to bend easier. Even the slightest bend that might not be quickly apparent or cause a chain to jam will cause some skipping. but, the newer 9spd cassettes are pretty darned light too. This is why I like the new PG970DH cassette a bunch.

I think a lot of replaceable hangers are also an even culprit in this riddle.

You can often run a 9spd chain on an 8spd cassette but not vice-versa.

-ska todd

 

[Cant Climb]

when in the past they'd be forced to change them a couple times a year because their chain would break and take with it their cassette, housing, cable, and RD.

There is less "complete" drivetrain explosion now-a-days for sure.....

The only issue i noticed with 9speed is the cassettes bending easier but even that seems less so now......

 

[banj]

It's more about the cross pollination I think. With the popularity of pre-built wheels, a lot of the traditional XC side wants their "own" stuff like we have ours; and that's fine and ducky in my book. Marathon/Trail/light All Mtn is the biggest (and growing strong!) segment of the high-end bike business.

You can pretty much bet that King, Hope, DT, Mavic, and all the others will have 15mm cones & axles for their 20mm hubs so you can change your "old" wheels in the whole of 5 minutes.

I've seen plenty of happy XC folks w/ Leftys and Maverick forks which both use odd-ball hubs.

-ska todd

But you can already get all mountain 20mm wheels and forks? How are those not their "own" stuff? Like you said the hub probably won't really change at all and the hub/axle weight change is going to be minimal so what's the point. It's a solution for a non existent problem which further fragments the mountain biking world. The only reason for it is to have something that's different, not better. Pushing 20mm on the all mountain niche would be a better solution because it uses existing components that can easily be used in a number of applications. But it's harder to sell something that we already have so lets create a new hub. Yay.

 

[jbogner]

I could see the benefit of a XC thru-axle if it were 15x110, especially as it concerns XC riders on bigger wheels (650b, 29er) where less dish is absolutely necessary.

I'm slightly saddened that they're launching a new promising standard without the benefit of the additional width, but I guess that's a weight-saving concession.

A 180mm singlecrown float/talas would be hot. I've had several friends ditch their 36's for 180mm 66's and Totems lately...

 

[Skippy]

Hey guys,
I wanted to chime in regarding the 15 mm hub dealio..

Yes it is true, to some degree that the 20 mm thru hub can be used for aggressive XC, marathon, All mountain, and 29er and maybe 650B bikes. But, the 20 mm hub is looked at as a DH / FR application and the XC and Marathon guys don't really want to touch it. The 15 mm will shave some weight off of the ALLMtn and FR bikes and will give the Marathon, Aggressive XC and big wheeled people something of there own that is geared and designed for them.

theres my 2 cents, and I am a fan of the 15....

 

[syadasti]

Hey guys,
I wanted to chime in regarding the 15 mm hub dealio..

Yes it is true, to some degree that the 20 mm thru hub can be used for aggressive XC, marathon, All mountain, and 29er and maybe 650B bikes. But, the 20 mm hub is looked at as a DH / FR application and the XC and Marathon guys don't really want to touch it. The 15 mm will shave some weight off of the ALLMtn and FR bikes and will give the Marathon, Aggressive XC and big wheeled people something of there own that is geared and designed for them.

theres my 2 cents, and I am a fan of the 15....

How do you explain that one of the hot new forks for 29ers is the 20mm Minute? Also the weight difference between the 130mm Minute MRD 26" fork QR and 20mm fork is listed as none in BTI's catalog.

The 20mm Pike was also one of the first single crown forks to roll out of Rockshox/SRAM in a long time that people actually liked and even considered for aftermarket purchase.

As Jan said if you are talking prebuilt the weight difference is like 10 grams - nobody is going to appreciate a new standard for 10 grams other than people wanting to sell new product.

 

[Skippy]

How do you explain that one of the hot new forks for 29ers is the 20mm Minute? Also the weight difference between the 130mm Minute MRD 26" fork QR and 20mm fork is listed as none in BTI's catalog.
Again...its something that is geared towards a different crowd. Those buyers do not want a 20 mm axle. Remember you want to look at hub and fork weight.

The 20mm Pike was also one of the first single crown forks to roll out of Rockshox/SRAM that people actually liked in the aftermarket.

I love the PIKE and agree its a great fork.

Like stated above, this is a hub and fork that is targeted towards a different group of users, they do not want 20mm, perception is everything and its the over all weight of the fork and the hub that counts. If it is slightly lighter this user group is going to like it better.

 

[Dogboy]

I love the PIKE and agree its a great fork.

Like stated above, this is a hub and fork that is targeted towards a different group of users, they do not want 20mm, perception is everything and its the over all weight of the fork and the hub that counts. If it is slightly lighter this user group is going to like it better.

Skippy speaks the truth.

 

[ska todd]

How do you explain that one of the hot new forks for 29ers is the 20mm Minute? Also the weight difference between the 130mm Minute MRD 26" fork QR and 20mm fork is listed as none in BTI's catalog.

Just because something is the only option does not make it the best option.

You have to step back and look at this without your DH goggles on. I reckon the % of XC riders who also ride DH is a lot less than the % of DH'ers who also ride XC. I think as aggressive riding types who have used this "technology" for 10-odd years now, we are conditioned to it. For someone who is a traditional Euro/XC type, 20mm is borderline blasphemy.

I'll tell you personally as someone who has spec'd and tried to sell 5" platforms w/ 20mm forks, overall, there is A LOT of pushback from consumers, dealers, distributors, and media on this; especially in continental Europe. Case in point, 05-07 MkIII series vs 08 MkIII.

As Jan said if you are talking prebuilt the weight difference is like 10 grams - nobody is going to appreciate a new standard for 10 grams other than people wanting to sell new product.

Even if the weight was exactly the same, the increased performance of a thru axle platform vs a QR set-up combined with the safety/piece-of-mind benefit of a thru axle trumps a QR anyday.

When Tullio Campagnolo invented the QR way back then, did he ever imagine they'd be used to secure wheels on bikes being ridden off-road, jumped, and using disc brake rotors?

-ska todd

 

[Cant Climb]

9mm QR should have been off the market 15 years ago......for any mountain bike.....

 

[banj]

Sure but this would be the same user group that said they'd never ride long travel bikes and look where we are now.

For someone who is a traditional Euro/XC type, 20mm is borderline blasphemy.

I'll tell you personally as someone who has spec'd and tried to sell 5" platforms w/ 20mm forks, overall, there is A LOT of pushback from consumers, dealers, distributors, and media on this; especially in continental Europe. Case in point, 05-07 MkIII series vs 08 MkIII.


-ska todd

 

[leprechaun]

At first i thought 15mm axles were ducking refickulous but there is a very large segment of people (anyone with a front qr) that can benefit from this.

Perhaps only 10g can be saved on the AXLE but the hub bearings can be smaller,the hub shell can be smaller and this makes a lot lighter front hub. A 9mm hub has to have a thick axle to be strong and then add the weight of a skewer, it's redundand and lame.

Lets just think of 15mm as a relacement for 9mm. No more.

OK xc dorks now you can have your kooky qr 20 system and give back my allen bolts.

But alas Shimano will screw things up by making a heavy centerlock hub anyway.

Whatever.

Krispy

 

[FrontRangeDH]

I wonder if much of this new standard has anything to do with certain states trying and even making illegal bikes with QRs