[MDJ]

You have to step back and look at this without your DH goggles on. I reckon the % of XC riders who also ride DH is a lot less than the % of DH'ers who also ride XC. I think as aggressive riding types who have used this "technology" for 10-odd years now, we are conditioned to it. For someone who is a traditional Euro/XC type, 20mm is borderline blasphemy.

I totally agree and I don't know why everyone is upset about this. Why aren't all of these people complaining about quick releases too since it's different than 20mm.

All of my riding is on the heavy AM and up side so it has no impact on me. Just as I won't have another bike with a QR, I won't have one with the 15mm.

Think about it though. If you bought a marathon-type bike today it would be with a QR. That is different than a 20mm so why would it be a big deal if QR goes to 15?

Oh yeah, it's because the MAN is out to get us and take our money.

 

[Bulldog]

For someone who is a traditional Euro/XC type, 20mm is borderline blasphemy.

I'll tell you personally as someone who has spec'd and tried to sell 5" platforms w/ 20mm forks, overall, there is A LOT of pushback from consumers, dealers, distributors, and media on this; especially in continental Europe. Case in point, 05-07 MkIII series vs 08 MkIII.

Even if the weight was exactly the same, the increased performance of a thru axle platform vs a QR set-up combined with the safety/piece-of-mind benefit of a thru axle trumps a QR anyday.

If the QR weenies are searching for something safer/stiffer than a QR they will find 20mm and be open to the change. For those not searching for an alternative to QR you will need to educate them on 15mm. If you need to educate them why start from scratch with a new standard? It doesn't get any easier than the 20mm Maxle, even easier than QR. You're not gonna sell me on 15mm for a few grams, that's stupid. Creating a new "standard" to benefit 0.01% of the cycling population is just retarded.

 

[Ian Collins]

But alas Shimano will screw things up by making a heavy centerlock hub anyway.

Whatever.

Krispy

i thought the XTR front hub was insane light or something?....i could be wrong though

 

[dropmachine]

Why not just introduce uber-light 20mm? Ti/ carbon axles and allthat...did I miss that part?

 

[dhkid]

And which is precisely why I'd pay for a 40 air version.


I don't care about the wieght, they're already light enough as a coil.

But unfortunately fox can't seem to get their sh1t straight with a proper spring/damping setup. It's either ride high, stiff, and never bottom or ride plush and smack the crap out of the bottom constantly.

funny, thats why i love my 40. personal preference i guess. for me the 40 works great. i cant get a boxxer world cup to work for me at all, i have the same problems you have with the 40 on the world cup.

 

[Rip]

That's pretty much a standard product path I'd say, ya. The 1.5 36 as mentioned, is shipping soon I believe.

A lot of riders have been asking for a 40 float for awhile now. It's a 2009 product if it is happening, which means shipping end of February or beginning of March. I've asked and asked and got no firm reply about it for a good 9 months now, which is usually pretty telling.

A 20QR on the 40 would make my damn year. A teammate and my bikes usually travel in his backseat, as the hitch rack kept hitting the ground in his car. This means lots of wheel removing. I'm also asking orange for some Maxle rear ends to go with it.

They have the 1.5's on the dealer sheets.

 

[norbar]

Fox 40 air version would be good so the 20QR.
I'd also wait for a longer travel single C and a nice DJ fork.

 

[Ian Collins]

Fox 40 air version would be good so the 20QR.
I'd also wait for a longer travel single C and a nice DJ fork.

an air sprung 40 would weigh about the same....they would have to change the platform of the whole fork in order to save a bunch of weight.....

 

[FrontRangeDH]

an air sprung 40 would weigh about the same....they would have to change the platform of the whole fork in order to save a bunch of weight.....

Rock Shox didnt change the whole platform of their Boxxer when they went to the air World Cup...did they? and they saved a bunch of weight

 

[Ian Collins]

Rock Shox didnt change the whole platform of their Boxxer when they went to the air World Cup...did they? and they saved a bunch of weight

apples to oranges.....

rock shox went from a steel spring to an air spring....

fox would be going from a ti spring to an air spring.....

i'm willing to bet that a ti spring in a boxxer team would only be a smidge heavier than a boxxer world cup.......the parts inside the solo air unit aren't much lighter than a single ti spring.......

think about it....boxxer team(steel spring) 6.8lbs.....boxxer wc 6.1lbs........plop a ti spring in a team and you're probably down to about 6.3+-

so the same can be said for the fox.....it would probably take a revamp of the fork(36mm stanchions) and some redesigning to save some substantial weight.......air would reduce it some, but not all that much......besides, i've owned the fox, the boxxer team, and wc and the wc was worst of all of them by far.....i hated the air spring....i'll take the .25lb weight increase and ride a coil sprung fork any day

 

[FrontRangeDH]

I really really liked the World Cup last year, much more than the coils, but to each his own. That being said I am back to Fox for the year. I had forgotten about the steel spring to air vs the ti spring to air

 

[Transcend]

The steel spring is about 420g in a Fox fork, the ti spring is around 300g from what I understand. That's still 1/2-3/4 of a pound or so?

That is only the stock spring. I barely know anyone with the medium in though, although I am sure many do. Most of the guys I ride with are using the lightweight or less, or the heavy steel spring.

Going from a 420g steel spring to an air spring would save an awful lot of weight for heavier riders.

 

[Ian Collins]

Going from a 420g steel spring to an air spring would save an awful lot of weight for heavier riders.

that's true....the heaviest guys would be affected more, but mid weight guys going from ti spring to air spring wouldn't see a big difference.....i would assume if the ti spring is 300g, it would be hard to conjure up an air spring system that weighs less than 225 grams....that leaves you with a pretty small advantage....

on the other side, one big advantage is that the fox has far more volume than the boxxer, thus it could use lower air pressure, softer seals, etc......it would probably be smoother.....i'm curious if overall air volume affects rate, progressivity, and other variables.....

 

[Transcend]

that's true....the heaviest guys would be affected more, but mid weight guys going from ti spring to air spring wouldn't see a big difference.....i would assume if the ti spring is 300g, it would be hard to conjure up an air spring system that weighs less than 225 grams....that leaves you with a pretty small advantage....

on the other side, one big advantage is that the fox has far more volume than the boxxer, thus it could use lower air pressure, softer seals, etc......it would probably be smoother.....i'm curious if overall air volume affects rate, progressivity, and other variables.....

Ya i completely agree about how much an air spring would weigh. I have a spring that isn't even available at retail, it is below the extra light weight spring. It looks like the spring from a clicky pen. I would probably be close to the weight of an air spring already. The spring itself is lighter than the stock ti one.

The main advantage for the air spring would be for larger riders with heavier springs, they would have the added advantage of being able to overcome any stiction in an air fork more easily than a light rider.

That said, after having ridden floats for ages, and more recently the 08 36 talas, I would love to see what fox comes up with for a float 40.

 

[FrontRangeDH]

I think itd be cool to have a float 40 just due to the ease of adjustability and not having to swap spring around. I am 165 before gear and ran the stock spring without problem and it felt great, should I plan on ordering springs for my 2008? The last 40 I had was in 06

 

[Transcend]

I think itd be cool to have a float 40 just due to the ease of adjustability and not having to swap spring around. I am 165 before gear and ran the stock spring without problem and it felt great, should I plan on ordering springs for my 2008? The last 40 I had was in 06

If you buy the fork at aftermarket retail, it will come with one of each of the 3 most popular springs (light, medium ti, heavy).

 

[Ian Collins]

I think itd be cool to have a float 40 just due to the ease of adjustability and not having to swap spring around. I am 165 before gear and ran the stock spring without problem and it felt great, should I plan on ordering springs for my 2008? The last 40 I had was in 06

i'm 175 and i run the stock ti spring in my 08 fox.......it's fine for me....i'm sure it'll be alright for you....i run a little preload, you could probably run it all the way out

 

[FrontRangeDH]

If you buy the fork at aftermarket retail, it will come with one of each of the 3 most popular springs (light, medium ti, heavy).

Is that the case if I buy direct from Fox? My old 40 came on my Glory, so it obviously didnt come with extra springs

Are the light and heavy spring ti or just the medium

 

[Transcend]

Is that the case if I buy direct from Fox? My old 40 came on my Glory, so it obviously didnt come with extra springs

It doesn't matter who you buy it from, as long as it isn't OEM. The box should include 2 springs, with the medium ti spring installed.

 

[Ian Collins]

Is that the case if I buy direct from Fox? My old 40 came on my Glory, so it obviously didnt come with extra springs

Are the light and heavy spring ti or just the medium

just medium

 

[buildyourown]

The thing about new "standards" is that if they suck, the will most likely die. Remember the oversize Mega BB built by FSA. Decent idea but it was too early and only a few custom builders ever built frames for it.
I predict the same for 15mm hubs. They might sell a few on oem bikes but you'd have to be an idiot to buy them aftermarket.
ISIS too. Not a bad idea but external bearings are soo much better. Why would anyone buy ISIS now?

Personally, I hate the maxle idea. I have a maxle rear and there is noticeable flex and it won't stay tight.

 

[FrontRangeDH]

The Maxle on my Pikes for the last few years and last years Boxxer World Cup I got to run were awesome. I never ran a rear.

Oversized bars were a new "standard" and they have caught on so much that road bikes are using them

 

[Ian Collins]

Oversized bars were a new "standard" and they have caught on so much that road bikes are using them

true, but oversized bars don't require a complete re-tooling by frame, fork hub builders......just a different sized bore on a stem and different bulge in a bar.....not really a huge overthrow......

 

[Dogboy]

The thing about new "standards" is that if they suck, the will most likely die. Remember the oversize Mega BB built by FSA. Decent idea but it was too early and only a few custom builders ever built frames for it.
I predict the same for 15mm hubs. They might sell a few on oem bikes but you'd have to be an idiot to buy them aftermarket.
ISIS too. Not a bad idea but external bearings are soo much better. Why would anyone buy ISIS now?

Personally, I hate the maxle idea. I have a maxle rear and there is noticeable flex and it won't stay tight.

And hindsight is 20/20. I get what you are saying and agree that a weak "standard" will ultimately fail, but your logic is a bit flawed. ISIS for instance was the only thing available for 83/100mm BB shells. I agree that the external BB is a better design, but there were years there when you simply didn't have the option. As people have pointed out in this thread, the 15mm is being built to supersede the traditional QR front hub and it is superior when viewed as such.

 

[FrontRangeDH]

True

In my opinion there are too many attempts to be special and different with relation to front hubs. Foes, Maverick, X-Fusion are all making special hubs for their forks for added benefits of being "stiffer". Personally I have never felt that my 20mm wasnt stiff enough. I see the market for the 15 mm front axle but I wont be running it just as I wont be running the 30mm Foes or X-Fusion forks not the Maverick hub

What about this new BB design by Cannondale...will it catch on, i think it may just be road right now, but its definitely different

 

[Ian Collins]

True

What about this new BB design by Cannondale...will it catch on, i think it may just be road right now, but its definitely different

that should be cool.....bmx bikes are running integrated bb's with a press in bearing and no cups....i like the idea of eliminating that extra interface.....it would be cool to just buy some $5 bearings for your bike not a $100+ bottom bracket.....standardizing that would be rad.....if there was just some sort of bearing/bb bore+width standard that would certainly make things cheaper and more simple

 

[buildyourown]

And hindsight is 20/20. I get what you are saying and agree that a weak "standard" will ultimately fail, but your logic is a bit flawed. ISIS for instance was the only thing available for 83/100mm BB shells. I agree that the external BB is a better design, but there were years there when you simply didn't have the option. As people have pointed out in this thread, the 15mm is being built to supersede the traditional QR front hub and it is superior when viewed as such.

I guess every instance is unique and you can't generalize, but I've never bought an ISIS BB because I new the plan as flawed.
83mm frames didn't become common until external bearings where the norm. I stuck with my profiles precisely because they where the best splined BB system at the time.

 

[buildyourown]

True


What about this new BB design by Cannondale...will it catch on, i think it may just be road right now, but its definitely different

That BB has been around for years on their CAD6 frames.
The problem is getting frame manufactures to support a build a bike around a "standard" that nobody makes parts for. I sure wouldn't buy a frame with it until it's been out for a few years.

 

[FrontRangeDH]

I personally really liked my ISIS stuff. Maybe its just cause I got into the sport right when they were out and my new bike had them but I ran them for a few years even after the extrenal stuff came out and had nothing but luck. I have actually had better luck with ISIS than the Howitzer stuff. I am strickly speaking of TruVativ now. I have moved into Shimano external stuff and its freaking awesome. Easy to work on, replace, strong stiff, relatively light and really long lifespans

 

[Ian Collins]

That BB has been around for years on their CAD6 frames.
The problem is getting frame manufactures to support a build a bike around a "standard" that nobody makes parts for. I sure wouldn't buy a frame with it until it's been out for a few years.

that's true....also, why would someone like fsa truvativ or shimano decide to adhere to a standard that would make them cease to sell actual bottom brackets......all you're really have to buy from them would be cranks and two bearings, they would be cutting down on saleable products to you

 

[big-ted]

Funny. I think the axle system used on the 40 (or my old 36 Van) is axle perfection. I can do everything with a single 5mm allen key, it takes barely any longer than any of the other systems, and no stupid big QR levers sticking out all over the place. Threaded inserts guard against stripped threads, nothing comes loose (cough - maxle). It's all good. I really don't understand why people would want these so called "quick" systems on through axles...

 

[dexter]

I have seen a lot of guys getting ultegra and dura ace cassettes and cutting them down to 7 speed and spacing them and then running stronger 8 speed chains and having better cleaner shifting without missing the extra gears...more is not always better

I dont see the benefit of the 15mm through axle. I like to be able to interchange all of the wheels on all of my bikes, atleast the fronts...I dont want to have to start buying more hubs and stuff. I just now am converting all bikes to oversize bars and stems

waste of time, money and weight homie

 

[Udi]

Why? The Float 36 is as light as any 32mm stanchioned, 20mm axle fork I can think of.

Probably been said already, but that's not true. Check out the pike lineup, which is lighter for a given spring config than any of the 36's to my knowledge (coil, air, travel-adjustable air).

I think manitou offer even lighter stuff than rockshox these days, fitting into the 32mm stanchion / 20mm axle category, but knowing them it's possible they also suck.

But yeah - for 4X use you need a fork that's real light (as close to 2kg flat as possible if not below) and since most people use their small bike for DJ/XC as well, the travel adjust is a pretty handy thing to have too. 36mm stanchions are completely unnecessary, but light weight and the ability to run at fairly low amounts of travel are.

 

[no skid marks]

In my opinion there are too many attempts to be special and different with relation to front hubs. Foes, Maverick, X-Fusion are all making special hubs for their forks for added benefits of being "stiffer". Personally I have never felt that my 20mm wasnt stiff enough. I see the market for the 15 mm front axle but I wont be running it just as I wont be running the 30mm Foes or X-Fusion forks not the Maverick hub

All those forks are inverted design that are using bigger axles to gain the extra stiffness they need.

What about this new BB design by Cannondale...will it catch on, i think it may just be road right now, but its definitely different

My Lahar runs the same oversized sealed bearings in both the BB and headset,no cups,just straight in the frame.and you could change the bearings to suit any cranks or make a sleeve if needed. The bottom headset is slightly larger ID to fit on the steerer instead of a race.
New ideas are either to gain sales or performance,figuring out witch one or if it's worth the hassle is up to us, unfortunately not many of us care to think about it and the marketing wins.

 

[syadasti]

All those forks are inverted design that are using bigger axles to gain the extra stiffness they need.

Except for the Specialized dual crown fork where the 25mm axle is only there for marketing/consumer frustration - I think X-fusion might be the OEM.

 

[no skid marks]

8speed is heaps better,especially for DH. I still run it on all my non gearboxed and non road bikes. Pitty it's scammed so there's no good light 8speed cassetes or shifters any more. C'mon Sram,bring out a 8speed X9 or X0 shifter.* speed is stronger,more reliable and easy to tune.
Having now read the whole thread it would apear that as much for marketing(ripping us off) the new 15mm is probably to steer the sheep into sections so we don't mix light parts for heavy duties.
36(or)38 180mm tripple would be great.Just got some 180mm coil Kowas and a set of 200mm ajustable to less than 150mm Kowa's that are lighter than my 40s anyway,and neither have any stupid QR crap.

 

[Mr. Furious]

So now we have a 9mm QR, 15mm thru axle (maybe?), 20mm thru axle, 25mm from Specialized (I think?) and does Foes still make a 30mm front hub for their forks?

Time to take up golf..... oh wait a sec.. there's blade putters, mallet putters, perimeter weighted putters, insert putters, offset putters, conventional length, belly length, long....

 

[pyynö]

-> Ian Collins

rock shox went from a steel spring to an air spring....

Hmmm, Didn't 2005 Boxxer WC come with TI springs?

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

A 40mm single crown is redundant, the 36 works just fine.

I asked (begged) and the 40 is not getting a QR apparently.

It really isnt though, the rock shox offerings make sense, the 36 fills the light weight long travel i can take a beating but still climb the thing niche that allot of guys need on trail bikes (myself included)

A 40 SC would be great, it would be a full blow DH/FR fork in a single crown package, i really think that model could give the totem a run for it's money. I know i would buy it...

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

There's still hope for the 203mm dual crown 36 float!

They should ditch the 40 DC make all of them 36 DC's to compete with the boxxer...