Nice video: SRAM vs Shimano
- Thread starter Acadian
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All you others trying to download this now need to stop!!!
I am downloading it and it is damn slow
I am the only one that counts
I am downloading it and it is damn slow
I am the only one that counts
It is about time James got that video posted.
One of the guys at work said a Shimano derailuers are supposed to do that, they act as chain tensioner thatway
One of the guys at work said a Shimano derailuers are supposed to do that, they act as chain tensioner thatway
Does that mean that the Sram body takes more stress as it does not flex ie are there any pros and cons of the two designs?
Someone else needs to host it...
Derailures suck!! I have owned both Shram and ****mano. I have found that good shifter cables and keeping your equipment clean is often the most important feature of either brand.
and have you ever tried SRAM drivetrain to "compare"?me89 said:
no way man what gave that away. i love my xt rear though light and shifts really well.
So really big difference between them two. I didn;t realise that. Although i rode a few months ago a Fusion Floyd equid with Sram xo stuff, and as i think of it, it was very quit yeah.
Interesting video... the only thing I'm thinking is: As someone else pointed out, the SRAM might be taking more stress than the shimano. Maybe look at it as better shifting but you replace parts more often?? I haven't had any experience using SRAM stuff but I'd be willing to try it out on my next drivetrain build.
Can someone host that somewhere else? That site is blocked by my work firewall, they say it's a sex site.
Maybe your work has added bike porn to the no go sites 
Am I missing the point with that video?
I'm not pro SRAM or Shimano, but the vertical displacement of a rear mech. over rough terrain doesn't really say a whole lot.
*Edit
I guess the only thing is that with a Horst Bike, the SRAM is less likely to slap the seatstay/chainstay pivot area with its knuckle.
I'm not pro SRAM or Shimano, but the vertical displacement of a rear mech. over rough terrain doesn't really say a whole lot.
*Edit
I guess the only thing is that with a Horst Bike, the SRAM is less likely to slap the seatstay/chainstay pivot area with its knuckle.
Fury said:
Yeah it might be taking more stress but also an example of why sram (I think is better is) I
1 In Snowmass I was running and ultegra on my Demo 9 and it was so loud (hitting the lower stay) and then it started ghost shifting so I thought I bent the hanger so I took it to Shimano to have it dialed and he said that it was bent too. Well that night I looked at it and it wasn't the hanger but the derailuer bolt was bent. So by having it move so much it creates a crap loud of noise and also can bend if it hits hard enough.
2 The Shimano tech support blows and I know that the Tech that was trying to help me knew that it wasn't the hanger but the derailluer and if he mentioned it, that I would ask him for another (which they don't do in any Circumstance.) Also he said that he couldn't striaghten the hanger cause he didn't have the special tool for the demo ( didn't know that they had a special tool to straighten the hanger) He said this cause he didn't want f-up my straight hanger, F--ker.
3. Sram's tech support is bad ass, period. At Sonoma Nat. I snapped a chain and they gave me another for free. At Sanpoint I snapped a X-9 rear and Dawson gave me another so I could race MX. That's tech support.
4. There trigger shifter is the best thing next to sliced bread. And also the 1-1 pull on sram derailluers far better that rapid fire. Sram is the way.
Cool video, keep in mind that they are 2 totally different designs. Shimano works great as does Sram, its a personal choice.
I hate to post the obvious here, but the difference is just the result of a stiffer B-tension spring, not some magical better construction. The downside to that stiffer spring is slower shifting... or more accurately, difficulty lifting the chain over a cog tooth to perform the shift. The upside is less likelihood of the chain hopping to another cog, and less slap.
IMO, that makes the SRAM a better mountain bike derailleur, but it would actually ride like sh!t on a road bike compared to shimano or campy. You'd think that Shimano would finally figure this out and stop using the same parts for their road and mountain lines... I'd be curious to see the same video with a Saint r-der. I have no idea if they changed springs for that model.
IMO, that makes the SRAM a better mountain bike derailleur, but it would actually ride like sh!t on a road bike compared to shimano or campy. You'd think that Shimano would finally figure this out and stop using the same parts for their road and mountain lines... I'd be curious to see the same video with a Saint r-der. I have no idea if they changed springs for that model.
yeah thats what i was thinking, just a matter of tuning the natural frequency of each. Unless they use some kind of damping.ohio said:
But SRAM don't actually have a B-tension spring, do they?
I must say, comparing a 9.0SL setup to an XTR setup, back to back, both brand new with all new components, the SRAM felt as if it had more accurate shifting, maybe that's due to the higher spring rate and more definite shift click.
Either way, one they sort out durability (been a few issues here and there), they'll be kings of the market.
I must say, comparing a 9.0SL setup to an XTR setup, back to back, both brand new with all new components, the SRAM felt as if it had more accurate shifting, maybe that's due to the higher spring rate and more definite shift click.
Either way, one they sort out durability (been a few issues here and there), they'll be kings of the market.
Didn't realize the video would cause such a stir... I have a smaller version of it as well; maybe I'll post that, too, to speed up the download time.
Anyway, as far as the B-tension thing goes: SRAM rear derailleurs don't have a B-tension spring at all, so there is no tension to overcome. Shimano mountain bike rear derailleurs are basically an evolution of their old road bike designs. The parallelogram geometry was originally designed to track the profile of a smaller road-size cassette (such as a 12-23), rather than the greater spread of a mountain cassette (such as a 12-34). The B-tension spring is necessary in a Shimano rear derailleur in order to accommodate the incompatility between the two angles; if it wasn't there, the upper pulley would simply run into the larger cogs (when the chain gap was adjusted properly for the smaller cogs) or there would be too much gap in the smaller cogs (when the chain gap was adjusted for the larger cogs). SRAM's rear derailleur was designed from the beginning with a mountain rear cassette in mind. Hence, it uses a steeper parallelogram angle in order to accurately maintain an appropriate chain gap across the full range without needing the floppy B-tension spring.
Anyway, as far as the B-tension thing goes: SRAM rear derailleurs don't have a B-tension spring at all, so there is no tension to overcome. Shimano mountain bike rear derailleurs are basically an evolution of their old road bike designs. The parallelogram geometry was originally designed to track the profile of a smaller road-size cassette (such as a 12-23), rather than the greater spread of a mountain cassette (such as a 12-34). The B-tension spring is necessary in a Shimano rear derailleur in order to accommodate the incompatility between the two angles; if it wasn't there, the upper pulley would simply run into the larger cogs (when the chain gap was adjusted properly for the smaller cogs) or there would be too much gap in the smaller cogs (when the chain gap was adjusted for the larger cogs). SRAM's rear derailleur was designed from the beginning with a mountain rear cassette in mind. Hence, it uses a steeper parallelogram angle in order to accurately maintain an appropriate chain gap across the full range without needing the floppy B-tension spring.
Crap, I forgot to download it when I was at home last night.
But I will say that after I put the SRAM triggers on my XC bike, it was instant :love: and now my DH/hucker bike has them too. Someday I'll get a high end enough road bike to run Campy and I'll be Shimano free at last
But I will say that after I put the SRAM triggers on my XC bike, it was instant :love: and now my DH/hucker bike has them too. Someday I'll get a high end enough road bike to run Campy and I'll be Shimano free at last
This is dangerously close to becoming a pissing contest, but I wanted to point out that it is the B-tension adjuster screw and not the spring alone that effect the track of the derrailleur. Turning the screw in moves the derr further away from the axle of the hub, making it work better with larger cassettes. SRAM recomends that you see 4 chain pins "in the air" between the upper jockey wheel and the bottom of the cassette to assure that you have the propper positioning. But the SRAM body is larger overall, making this easier. Backing out the B screw on a SRAM will move the derr closer to the cassette, but do not think that the jockey wheel will ever ride on the largest cog like a Shimano will. The b-knuckle spring on a Shimano derr is designed to keep the B pivot from moving like it does in the vid. SRAM pretty much simplified the priblem by making a B knuckle that is not designed to move forward. The pivot located at the upper jockey wheel is enough to maintain tension on the chain.angryasian said:
I guess that one argument in favor of Shimano would be that a tspring-loaded B pivot releaves stress from the knuckle, while the counter argument is that a derr that moves more will not shift as well.
The argument for SRAM is that a more stationairy pivot will shift better, but you can also argue that a static sress-bearing part will wear out faster.
I've never had a problem with shifting on any of my Shimano stuff, and has always worked fine for me. Hit a rock at a good enough speed or angle and both will be damaged.
I Ride an Autobike. Shifting is such a pain in the A$$ and I never know what gear to be in....
I wonder if that's why the cage pivot bolts on SRAM derailleurs are always breaking. Nothing else gives, it takes all the stress.
Mike
Mike
Probably, SRAM used to give them away for free because so many people had problems with them breaking. I'd carry a few with me in my pack when I went riding.Dartman said:
As to shimano vs sram, initial performance seems to be pretty good, but I'm still having problems with sram stuff holding up over longer periods of time. Such is the case with my 990 cassette, it wore out before my chain even stretched.
I am going to get some newer SRAM stuff in my shop to test it, I know people like it (which is why I want to get it in), hopefully I can take apart a sram trigger shifter and find percision metal bits!
I'm actually getting some darn good life out of my current XT derailers, I've had them on for almost a year now, and they are both going strong (knock on wood of course).
One telling factor is that SRAM warrenty on X0 is 2 years. Shimano warrenty on XTR is 3 years.
I think the video speaks for itself in turn to which one moves more.
Anyone ever look at how much more Sram derailers are vs something like XT? I was looking the other day and the Sram one's (their 2 higher end ones) were like $20+ more. Not that it's alot but if you're going to break it, I'd rather break the $20 cheaper one then the more expensive one. The X.9 and the XT are pretty close. The X.0 vs. XTR there's like a $40 dollar difference. That's go-ride pricing
That's my only beef. You're going to bust it sooner or later. Why shell out the extra $$$ for a little performance. Sram is popular someplaces. I dunno if it's just me but every LBS that we have here is pretty much a shimano group. I haven't seen much Sram shifting stuff around.
Not to say it's bad stuff. It probably does in cases work better than Shimano. No one ever said Shimano was perfect.
Hehe.....I just run some sticky foam to combat it beating against the bottom stay there. Usually fixes that a little bit
Anyone ever look at how much more Sram derailers are vs something like XT? I was looking the other day and the Sram one's (their 2 higher end ones) were like $20+ more. Not that it's alot but if you're going to break it, I'd rather break the $20 cheaper one then the more expensive one. The X.9 and the XT are pretty close. The X.0 vs. XTR there's like a $40 dollar difference. That's go-ride pricing
That's my only beef. You're going to bust it sooner or later. Why shell out the extra $$$ for a little performance. Sram is popular someplaces. I dunno if it's just me but every LBS that we have here is pretty much a shimano group. I haven't seen much Sram shifting stuff around.
Not to say it's bad stuff. It probably does in cases work better than Shimano. No one ever said Shimano was perfect.
Hehe.....I just run some sticky foam to combat it beating against the bottom stay there. Usually fixes that a little bit
Jm_ said:
Good luck. I broke the paddle off of my x9. I took it apart to rig a fix. I fixed the paddle but couldn't get the thing bacl together. To many little springs that have to be prewound. I even took apart a left shifter so I could compare, both of them ended up in the trash.
I've ridden both and they both shift nice, I'm still partial to Shimano, its never failed me. I know some like the shifting feel of the SRAM, that's just a matter of personal preference though. SRAM maybe on to something with the function of their derailleurs, then again Shimano been doing it a lot longer than SRAM and maybe know a thing or two more about them and overall durability.
Spunger said:I think the video speaks for itself in turn to which one moves more.
Anyone ever look at how much more Sram derailers are vs something like XT? I was looking the other day and the Sram one's (their 2 higher end ones) were like $20+ more. Not that it's alot but if you're going to break it, I'd rather break the $20 cheaper one then the more expensive one. The X.9 and the XT are pretty close. The X.0 vs. XTR there's like a $40 dollar difference. That's go-ride pricing
Take a look at the weights. 235g for Sram XO, 260g for X9...
They don't have anything as light as XTR, and the $200 Sram XO weighs as much as the $70 XT.
Sram stuff has gotten significantly heavier over the years(shifters and derailers). Shimano has remained about the same.
isn;t that the nature of the trigger beast though? would shimano be any different?buildyourown said:
simplicity is another reason i like the twist shifters.
No, you can take the covers off of shimano shifters to work on them, and they are not terribly hard to mess with. If you take them completely apart, then yes, you may have a lot of headaches, but the thing doesn't "unwind" or anything fall out if you just take the covers off. This is important because the one drawback of rapid-fire style shifters is that if the sit for years, the grease gets gummy and the pawls get real "slow"-they do not catch the gear detents. To fix this, I open them up, spray carburetor cleaner in there and get the pawls moving freely, and then put the molybdenum dry-slide lube in there and they usually work good as new. The precision internals are why rapid fire work great over a long period of time, the metal doesn't wear down like sram plastic does. If sram would have just made little aluminum or steel metal teeth instead of plastic they would have lasted many times longer....designed failure?narlus said:
Shimano Roxors!
The videos prove nothing really what does a cage moving more or less really equate too? (rehash?)
Shimano is better quality and more durable period. Sram is not bad but it will be years before they are Shimano level IMO.
The videos prove nothing really what does a cage moving more or less really equate too? (rehash?)
Shimano is better quality and more durable period. Sram is not bad but it will be years before they are Shimano level IMO.
you can do the same with SRAM.Jm_ said:
Attachments
Heres my experience on Sram and Shimano
So far Sram has yet to hold up. With the 04s any little bump would bend the sheet metal underside. I ran their stuff for about 6 months. In that time I went through 3 rear derailleurs, with each replacement shifting got a little worse. Two weeks after I got the third derailleur the shifter went out. At that point I was paying to much money and had to quit. So I put some old LX components back on and have been running them for almost 3 months now without problems.
Comparing the two, the lx doesnt shift as good as a new x7 set up. But it is better than an old x7 set up. I run my shifter and brake level further in on the handle bar so reach is a problem with the lx. I have to move my whole hand to shift. The Sram was a little easier. The lx also needs more repetitive adjustment. The Sram needed it too, not quite as much although most of the adjustment had to be done with a couple pairs of pliers. It was not a side of the trail job like can be done on the Lx.
So anyways, as much as I dislike Shimano and their un standardized parts, Im going to have to stick with them for now.
PS. I was looking at a picture of the 05 Sram from Interbike and it looked they may have beefed up the flimsy sheet metal bottom on the X9 series. Maybe that will make them hold up a little longer.
So far Sram has yet to hold up. With the 04s any little bump would bend the sheet metal underside. I ran their stuff for about 6 months. In that time I went through 3 rear derailleurs, with each replacement shifting got a little worse. Two weeks after I got the third derailleur the shifter went out. At that point I was paying to much money and had to quit. So I put some old LX components back on and have been running them for almost 3 months now without problems.
Comparing the two, the lx doesnt shift as good as a new x7 set up. But it is better than an old x7 set up. I run my shifter and brake level further in on the handle bar so reach is a problem with the lx. I have to move my whole hand to shift. The Sram was a little easier. The lx also needs more repetitive adjustment. The Sram needed it too, not quite as much although most of the adjustment had to be done with a couple pairs of pliers. It was not a side of the trail job like can be done on the Lx.
So anyways, as much as I dislike Shimano and their un standardized parts, Im going to have to stick with them for now.
PS. I was looking at a picture of the 05 Sram from Interbike and it looked they may have beefed up the flimsy sheet metal bottom on the X9 series. Maybe that will make them hold up a little longer.
i'd be interested in seeing pictures of worn detents. it's just a small piece of metal acting like a clip, and some ridges cut in the plastic. i'd hard pressed to see how much wear you can actually put on one. maybe i don't shift as much? seriously, i've had ESP shifters which have been used for several years, and they still feel crisp.Jm_ said:
Are you serious? Those pastic detents wear out like crazy, that's the main problem with SRAM shifters.narlus said:
Go find some 2-3 year old sram shifters and feel the "slop" in between gears.
Unfortunatly, pictures are not going to show the tenths of milimeters of wear that creates the slop, maybe up to a milimeter at the most, unless you have some sort of way to blow them up to a HUGE size and compare with a brand new shifter of the same type. Rest assured, the slop happens, but it's not something that's going to be very visable in pictures, or at least without taking some extra measures.
It's a little hard to take anyone serious that doesn't believe the sram shifters develop slop in the long run. Initial performance is very good, long term is a little better than it has been, but those pastic teeth are still weak points in the system, and something that could have been easily solved years ago. They just don't hold up over the long run.
compare the amplitude of the detent (probably about a centimeter), to the putative amount eroded (which you state as at most a millimeter, which i think is way overstated). ten percent wear is gonna make it unusable? from yr description it's like they are polished bare, to an even surface.
maybe i've just gotten used to it an adapted. either way it's a non-starter for me.
but please, i still hope you will take me seriously. pretty please?
maybe i've just gotten used to it an adapted. either way it's a non-starter for me.
but please, i still hope you will take me seriously. pretty please?
Well, if I led you to that conclusion I am sorry, because I was not trying to. Because the detents are fairly small, as are ANY parts in a shifter, what is actually fairly serious wear will not look like it to the naked eye, you simply aren't going to be able to see it very well.narlus said:
The detents do wear to the point that it eventually becomes impossible to keep the shifter tuned correctly and have it work right. It will still "shift", but it will start missing shifts, not quite get to the detent, etc, at least that's what happens with the ones that I work on.
