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No Astana in the Tour

OGRipper

Turbo Monkey
Feb 3, 2004
9,733
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NORCAL is the hizzle
I'm not sure it's a done deal yet
I agree, it sounds like a publicity stunt aimed at showing how ASO is committed to cleaning up the sport, but I expect they'll capitulate to the outcry. Either that or the contenders will try to score guest spots on other teams already invited.

LO, it's a completely different team, with the defending champ and other contenders that have never been proven to dope. Unless there is proof of wrongdoing by this group, they are being punished for the acts of others. As for what they have done, my understanding is that yes, the new team has more controls than the prior group.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,033
1
Denver
LO, it's a completely different team, with the defending champ and other contenders that have never been proven to dope. Unless there is proof of wrongdoing by this group, they are being punished for the acts of others. As for what they have done, my understanding is that yes, the new team has more controls than the prior group.
It might be different team members, but it's the same team.

They were huge in the dope scandal last year, the team owner (Khazakstan?) should've done what was necessary to make it known that what happened was outside their knowledge, thrown out everyone from last year, thrown them under the bus, established anti-dope controls with the help of WADA or whomever.
 

James

Carbon Porn Star
Sep 11, 2001
3,559
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Danbury, CT
It might be different team members, but it's the same team.

They were huge in the dope scandal last year, the team owner (Khazakstan?) should've done what was necessary to make it known that what happened was outside their knowledge, thrown out everyone from last year, thrown them under the bus, established anti-dope controls with the help of WADA or whomever.
I have to disagree here, it's the same name, and yes, the same people are ponying up the money, but new management, new riders, new just about everything, including one of the most stringent anti-doping policies and internal testing out there.
I'm not necessarily agreeing with ASO, or disagreeing with them, but they singled out Astana, but not High Road/T-Mobile?

It would be a shame to run the tour without 2 of the 3 podium places from the year before, plus Klöden, who is always a threat to do well. I'm not going to say I won't watch, because I will, and I'll enjoy it, but I would wish for a true race, with the defending #1 plate.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,033
1
Denver
...including one of the most stringent anti-doping policies and internal testing out there.
Then that's wrong.

What I'm saying is, if they have a strict program in place and have done so transparently, then, yes, kicking them out is wrong.

Same goes with T-mobile.
 

James

Carbon Porn Star
Sep 11, 2001
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Danbury, CT
Then that's wrong.

What I'm saying is, if they have a strict program in place and have done so transparently, then, yes, kicking them out is wrong.

Same goes with T-mobile.
They do, and they were. It's the French being pissy about getting a black eye last summer with Vino, etc.
T-Mobile was invited to Paris-Nice, which is another ASO race. They're another team who has totally turned things around, new management/ownership, sponsors, etc.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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Sleazattle
People are giving the ASO a lot of crap over this one but they are doing more to actually clean up cycling than anyone else is.
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,199
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Evans is going to win!!! I think they are trying to exclude all non-french teams so a frechman can win.....god knows its been a long time Hinault (if true, evans won't win)
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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Although old discovery is the new Astana the old Discovery team wasn't known to be super clean. They largely avoided Puerto and avoided any failed tests, but the rumours have always been there. Basically a team full of riders and management who got caught cheating by a team of riders and management who just never got caught. It isn't like Astana was taken over by a team like Slipstream who push a clean message.
 

SPINTECK

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2005
1,370
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The bottom line is what is the aguement or reaon against Astana?? Vino and Keshy??? They were both fired and the team voluntarily withdrew for the tour out of shame, so the ASO should actually commend them and use them as an example of how to deal with dirty teams.

If anything CSC with BJarni Reese should be excluded if you follow the same logic.
 

maddog17

Turbo Monkey
Jan 20, 2008
2,781
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Methuen, Mass. U.S.A.
good point about CSC. using ASO's logic, CSC should be not allowed to race either since Riis admitted to doping. i really think it's a bunch of crap. ASO is hurting after allowing Astana in last years tour knowing they had problems. no sense in punishing them now, especially since they cleaned house, got rid of the bad riders and hired one of the best directors in the sport, and filled the team with some good, clean riders. it's not ASO's place to try to clean up the sport, i thought that's what the UCI is for. i can't see how it's going to be cleaned up, somehow someone needs to get the message thru to these guys and those coming up that you can't do it. to me, it would be a great achievement to finish the TdF clean. it's one of the hardest, if not THE hardest race. how can you not feel good about finishing that race without the help of drugs?? why can't these guys take examples of past great racers like Eddie or LeMonde or Hinault and realize that they can do it clean.
 

OGRipper

Turbo Monkey
Feb 3, 2004
9,733
164
NORCAL is the hizzle
why can't these guys take examples of past great racers like Eddie or LeMonde or Hinault and realize that they can do it clean.
Maybe I am just jaded but don't be so sure. Doping goes way WAY back. Fausto Coppi famously said "you don't win races on mineral water alone" or something like that. Those guys were never caught doping but even in the time of LeMond and Hinault there was less testing, and the testing that was done was less sophisticated.
 

James

Carbon Porn Star
Sep 11, 2001
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Danbury, CT
Maybe I am just jaded but don't be so sure. Doping goes way WAY back. Fausto Coppi famously said "you don't win races on mineral water alone" or something like that. Those guys were never caught doping but even in the time of LeMond and Hinault there was less testing, and the testing that was done was less sophisticated.
Thank you. Glad someone mentioned that.
Amphetamines were a big part of sports back in the day. Sure, people were hard, but they weren't "clean" like we're thinking.
 

maddog17

Turbo Monkey
Jan 20, 2008
2,781
89
Methuen, Mass. U.S.A.
Maybe I am just jaded but don't be so sure. Doping goes way WAY back. Fausto Coppi famously said "you don't win races on mineral water alone" or something like that. Those guys were never caught doping but even in the time of LeMond and Hinault there was less testing, and the testing that was done was less sophisticated.
good point, i really didn't think of that fact about the sophistication of the testing. i forget who the rider was that died due to EPO i think and it was then that alot of people started to take a look at things and i thought i remember reading that a lot of riders were scared about that and doping fell off quite a bit.
 

jaydee

Monkey
Jul 5, 2001
794
0
Victoria BC
ASO owns the race. It's their own private little party and they can invite whoever they want. It's my TV and I can watch whatever I want in July. It won't be the Tour de Farce this year. ASO can get stuffed.
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,199
4
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/feb08/feb14news3

"We cannot wipe away what happened these last two years," Prudhomme explained. "We don't have the right to have a short memory. In 2006, a team came out of the ashes of Liberty Seguros. Within this team, half of the riders were linked to Operacion Puerto and cannot take the start of the Tour. The next year, they explain to us that it's a new team, a new management, that everything about it is new. We trust them and invite them to the Tour. But we made a mistake to take them – and we don't want to make that mistake once again."
I guess I can see their perspective from this quote. I bet they let Astana in, but they want to be sure the team has really changed first.
 

OGRipper

Turbo Monkey
Feb 3, 2004
9,733
164
NORCAL is the hizzle
I guess I can see their perspective from this quote. I bet they let Astana in, but they want to be sure the team has really changed first.
As I recall, management (Manual Saiz, et al) and many of the riders were essentially the same with the team that came out of the ashes of Liberty Seguros. So, it should not be much of a surprise that the culture (which included doping) did not change. Astana is different - the only thing that is the same is the sponsor.

At a time when the big-dollar sponsorships are few and far between, you would think they would do what they can to keep the few who are willing to step up. Instead, they are pushing this sponsor away. Why would Astana remain involved after this?
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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At one point, they smoked tobacco cigarettes. They've always doped.
They also used to drink liquor.

The big difference is the drugs available today make a huge difference in performance. It is likely doping of old did little to make someone faster if not actually make them slower. The things availalbe today make a so-so rider a champion.
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,199
4
As I recall, management (Manual Saiz, et al) and many of the riders were essentially the same with the team that came out of the ashes of Liberty Seguros. So, it should not be much of a surprise that the culture (which included doping) did not change. Astana is different - the only thing that is the same is the sponsor.

At a time when the big-dollar sponsorships are few and far between, you would think they would do what they can to keep the few who are willing to step up. Instead, they are pushing this sponsor away. Why would Astana remain involved after this?
After Puerto, they dumped all of the management...it was the same situation as now and they still ended up with a bunch of dopers. This same thing has happened once before, rider and management shake up and then several of their stars tested positive. I'm sure a positive doping control in the Tour has an impact of millions for ASO, they want to be as careful as possible this year, and I can't really blame them after the 06 winner loses his crown and then a winner of 2 stages fails a control for blood doping in 07